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I had an interesting back and forth with Larry Coon re: Franchise Tag & Melo.
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crzymdups
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2/14/2011  1:04 PM
(this happened over twitter - took out twitter names to protect the innocent.)

Me: if Melo opts out by the end of the CBA, is it yr belief the franchise tag would apply to him in the new CBA? he would be UFA, no?

Larry: Depends on how they write the rule. If they intend for it to apply ...to 2011 free agents, then they'll write the rule in such a way.

Me: thanks. seems like they'd only write in a rule that way specifically for denver. guess we'll know more after the All-Star game...

Larry: They've written in rules specifically for one player before. For example, delayed implementing changes to Over-36 rule in 2005 so Shaq could sign big extension.

Me: thanks. so basically, seems like melodrama could possibly play out thru lockout (if we're lucky!) if DEN wants to hold for franchise tag

Larry: I think a pre-deadline move looking like it's not working out for Denver, and post-deadline won't work out for Melo.

thought it was interesting that the CBA has been tailored to one specific player before. with this information, i'd say if denver wants to be stubborn here, they can basically hold onto Melo through the entire lockout and see what happens with the franchise tag. other owners will have to want it, but i bet new orleans, denver, utah and orlando and even LA clippers are VERY interested (due to upcoming FA of paul, deron, melo and dwight... and even blake.)

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martin
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2/14/2011  1:12 PM
Always thought that Coon was a very analytical and detailed orientated thinker, but not very creative or forward-thinking, could be that I have not read very much of his stuff either.

Here is one big thing that he leaves off that is really critical to the whole point: would the Players Association be down for a Franchise player tag? And is it better for the league?

Is the Durant story-line better for the league or is the Melo drama?

What is the league going to give up to the Players association for th Franchise tag?

Could Coon have used a worse example than Shaq, which wasn't really a concession for a player?

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martin
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2/14/2011  1:15 PM
I would have to add that this was just a Twitter convo, so that's about as sparse a back-and-forth as you can get.
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crzymdups
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2/14/2011  1:23 PM
martin wrote:I would have to add that this was just a Twitter convo, so that's about as sparse a back-and-forth as you can get.

i did mention it happened over twitter at the top of the post...

i think it's not necessarily the whole picture, but it could be a very major factor in denver's reasoning heading into the trade deadline.

i kind of feel like there is no way Melo gets traded to the knicks over the next ten days. i'm not rooting against it, i just don't see denver doing it.

and the owners are going to ask for A LOT of stuff the players don't want in the negotiations. which is why there will almost certainly be a lockout.

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crzymdups
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2/14/2011  1:29 PM
martin wrote:
Here is one big thing that he leaves off that is really critical to the whole point: would the Players Association be down for a Franchise player tag? And is it better for the league?

Is the Durant story-line better for the league or is the Melo drama?

What is the league going to give up to the Players association for th Franchise tag?

i think the Durant storyline is an argument FOR the franchise tag.

of course the players association won't want it... but when it comes down to it... this is a rule that effects thirty players at most... will the 30 top names in the game protest and hurt the rest of the players?

it will be an interesting lockout. i will be so pissed if the knicks lose time with a young exciting squad like they have now though.

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martin
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2/14/2011  1:33 PM
crzymdups wrote:
martin wrote:
Here is one big thing that he leaves off that is really critical to the whole point: would the Players Association be down for a Franchise player tag? And is it better for the league?

Is the Durant story-line better for the league or is the Melo drama?

What is the league going to give up to the Players association for th Franchise tag?

i think the Durant storyline is an argument FOR the franchise tag.

of course the players association won't want it... but when it comes down to it... this is a rule that effects thirty players at most... will the 30 top names in the game protest and hurt the rest of the players?

it will be an interesting lockout. i will be so pissed if the knicks lose time with a young exciting squad like they have now though.

here's the thing though: What franchise-level player has left his team after his initial contract? I can't think of one. Shaq? But was that before the rookie contract thing?

So that means most players have stayed with their home team at least, what, 7-8 years?

Do teams want a 10 year period with which to tag a franchise player?

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crzymdups
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2/14/2011  1:41 PM
martin wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
martin wrote:
Here is one big thing that he leaves off that is really critical to the whole point: would the Players Association be down for a Franchise player tag? And is it better for the league?

Is the Durant story-line better for the league or is the Melo drama?

What is the league going to give up to the Players association for th Franchise tag?

i think the Durant storyline is an argument FOR the franchise tag.

of course the players association won't want it... but when it comes down to it... this is a rule that effects thirty players at most... will the 30 top names in the game protest and hurt the rest of the players?

it will be an interesting lockout. i will be so pissed if the knicks lose time with a young exciting squad like they have now though.

here's the thing though: What franchise-level player has left his team after his initial contract? I can't think of one. Shaq? But was that before the rookie contract thing?

So that means most players have stayed with their home team at least, what, 7-8 years?

Do teams want a 10 year period with which to tag a franchise player?

that's a good point... but you can bet Toronto, Cleveland, Denver, New Orleans, Orlando, Utah, OKC, LAC and more teams will want a franchise tag... the owners seemingly want to break the player's association this time out. it seems worse in the lead up than 99 was...

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eViL
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2/14/2011  1:45 PM
martin wrote:
crzymdups wrote:
martin wrote:
Here is one big thing that he leaves off that is really critical to the whole point: would the Players Association be down for a Franchise player tag? And is it better for the league?

Is the Durant story-line better for the league or is the Melo drama?

What is the league going to give up to the Players association for th Franchise tag?

i think the Durant storyline is an argument FOR the franchise tag.

of course the players association won't want it... but when it comes down to it... this is a rule that effects thirty players at most... will the 30 top names in the game protest and hurt the rest of the players?

it will be an interesting lockout. i will be so pissed if the knicks lose time with a young exciting squad like they have now though.

here's the thing though: What franchise-level player has left his team after his initial contract? I can't think of one. Shaq? But was that before the rookie contract thing?

So that means most players have stayed with their home team at least, what, 7-8 years?

Do teams want a 10 year period with which to tag a franchise player?

i don't read coon's comments, and his shaq example, the same way you do. the way i see it, the league exempted shaq from the over-36 rule so he could sign a big extension. by the same token, wouldn't the league exempt melo from the franchise tag so he can have his freedom?

who really thinks there's gonna be a franchise tag? c'mon now. really???

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crzymdups
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2/14/2011  1:52 PM
i think the owners are going to start with the most unreasonable offer they can think of and put that on the table first.

but i just named at least 8 or 9 teams that will want that franchise tag... you can probably add the bulls with DRose, too. maybe the celts with rondo... maybe wizards with wall.

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franco12
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2/14/2011  2:50 PM
Can Denver really plan on their being a Franchise tag? Unless Stern or the owners have made it clear to other owners that they will get it or else, I don't see how Denver can plan to have the ability to tag Melo.

Now, Denver can certainly think that while Melo has threatened to leave for nothing, chances are he'll either sign back with them for more money, or leave and they will get back about the same as we've offered them thus far.
crzymdups
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2/14/2011  3:09 PM
franco12 wrote:Can Denver really plan on their being a Franchise tag? Unless Stern or the owners have made it clear to other owners that they will get it or else, I don't see how Denver can plan to have the ability to tag Melo.

Now, Denver can certainly think that while Melo has threatened to leave for nothing, chances are he'll either sign back with them for more money, or leave and they will get back about the same as we've offered them thus far.

That's why they're waiting on the owners meetings at the All-Star weekend before planning their next move. Owners are going to outline their plan for the CBA negotiations. If Denver can't rally any support for a franchise tag that would apply to 2011 free agents, they will have a LOT more pressure to move Melo before the deadline.

If they find a bunch of owners who want the same thing... I don't think Melo gets traded.

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Nalod
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2/14/2011  3:47 PM
To me at least, that Melo not extending and opting out at the june 30th date is important.

The CBA expires at midnight. At that moment Melo would not be property of any team. None.

SO how can a team tag a player it no longer employs?
martin
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2/14/2011  3:50 PM
Nalod wrote:To me at least, that Melo not extending and opting out at the june 30th date is important.

The CBA expires at midnight. At that moment Melo would not be property of any team. None.

SO how can a team tag a player it no longer employs?

this is what I keep asking myself and not one sports writer brings up when noting the franchise tag concept.

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nixluva
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2/14/2011  4:17 PM
The league has already given teams the huge edge in being able to keep their best players. They can't completely take every option away IMO, cuz that would take a huge part of the excitement of game away. No more free publicity from news orgs. doing stories on the trade rumors and eventual player moves. These draw interest because it involves NBA stars that are newsworthy. Some player movement is a good thing IMO. They don't all move but having some guys explore the idea and maybe go to a new team shakes things up and keeps things interesting.
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2/14/2011  4:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/14/2011  4:21 PM
I don't think the Franchise Tag would stand in a court of law IF they included players whose deals were expiring in the first year of the "Tag" (e.g. Melo). There is generally a Grandfather clause in contracts. One can't really compare the Shack salary thing as it helped him. This Franchise Tag would piss a player off. I think the Franchise Tag could only logically be applied to new contracts signed.
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Nalod
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2/14/2011  4:24 PM

I have not read a new thing in weeks. Just spek-a-lating stuff of words to fill the space.

Notice how quiet everything became over the weekend?

Notice team not doing well then writers are "KNicks need Melo NOW!!"?

Easy to say after a bad stretch. Thought is never the departing players just insert the savior and all is well.

Im not even reading most threads or articles now cuz its all redundant.

We don't even know what a cap would look like to even know if we can fit Melo in?

Don't matter what anyone "Feels" at this point. Only involved parties know anything and when its quiet you know things are being discussed. At some point Denver has to relent one way or another because there are other deals to be done and anyone involved with Denver is waiting. Teams will move on limiting Denvers choices.

Franchise tags? Melo? Don't see it.
scoshin
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2/14/2011  5:03 PM
earthmansurfer wrote:I don't think the Franchise Tag would stand in a court of law IF they included players whose deals were expiring in the first year of the "Tag" (e.g. Melo). There is generally a Grandfather clause in contracts. One can't really compare the Shack salary thing as it helped him. This Franchise Tag would piss a player off. I think the Franchise Tag could only logically be applied to new contracts signed.

Court of law wouldn't touch it as it would be a bargained-for agreement in the CBA. Can't contest it unless it's just an unconscionable term, which it isn't. Major league sports also tend to get very relaxed scrutiny when it comes to contract issues.

However, I think if the new CBA were to include a franchise tag, it would be for prospective FA's only, and not for Carmelo. Mainly for equity reasons. Consider this: If Carmelo is a FA, that means he exercised his option to forego $18M in guaranteed salary prior to June 30, solely to test out FA and (obviously) to become a Knick. For the NBA/owners to then retroactively apply the franchise tag to him, so Denver can say, "hey, sucks for you, but you can only sign with us now," would be ridiculously unfair for Melo -- and only one team would really be fighting for retroactive implementation (Denver). If there is going to be a franchise tag, it'll be to keep Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, etc. with their teams. Sure, the Player's Union would fight against that too, but they're going to have make some concessions in the upcoming CBA, and the truth is, a franchise tag only affects a small minority of the Union. Those superstar FA's may get boned (but if I understand NFL rules, stars tagged with the "franchise" label can also get paid more than they would otherwise, so there is a tradeoff to restricting player freedom)
arkrud
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2/14/2011  6:13 PM
I think that Franchise Tag is a joke.
If they will have player bonded to the theam for 1o years they will need to guaranty his multimillion paycheck for 10 years with all % rases.
And then this player will became Greg Oden or Eddy Curry... This will be a lot of fun.
This is another extream like having players get paid only if they are healthy and performing at the star level.
Any extream is no good and I cannot see this implemented.
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nixluva
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2/14/2011  7:52 PM
arkrud wrote:I think that Franchise Tag is a joke.
If they will have player bonded to the theam for 1o years they will need to guaranty his multimillion paycheck for 10 years with all % rases.
And then this player will became Greg Oden or Eddy Curry... This will be a lot of fun.
This is another extream like having players get paid only if they are healthy and performing at the star level.
Any extream is no good and I cannot see this implemented.

I agree and besides, what's wrong with the leverage they already have to be able to retain players? It's mostly worked very well with few exceptions. If not for the Lebron, Wade N Bosh pact, most stars have stayed with their current teams unless the team wanted to send them away. The extra money has helped teams to keep their own players. Now they want it to be 100% star player retention. I can understand it in the NFL. So many players and a real cap, but in the NBA there are so few Elite players and the rosters are so small. They don't need this artificial construct.
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2/15/2011  5:50 AM
If I understand the football Franchise tag correctly it is applied yearly and is the average pay if the top 5 players at the position. Now I personally don't like it as in football you can consecutively franchise the same guy year after year.

If the NBA version is yearly, one tag per year, and cannot be applied to the same player in consecutive years(if a player is traded in a season under the franchise tag, he can not be franchised by his new team), while I don't agree with it, it is more palatable.

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I had an interesting back and forth with Larry Coon re: Franchise Tag & Melo.
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