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Knicks: Box out please
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ramtour420
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1/22/2011  10:44 PM
Getting blocks and deflections and having ppl scared to drive on us means so much less if you don't box out. If we had just ONE guy that boxed out(out of the guys that play) we would win like 1O more games. Our effort and execution on the first play is superb , but our consequent execution sucks and guys get 2nd and 3rd opportunities against us often, it seems. I hate it when a block by our guys doesn't result in our posession. . .
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
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Vmart
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1/22/2011  11:27 PM
Need to get Moses Malone or Dennis Rodman to coach these guys on rebounding, they need serious help and being undersized doesn't hep the situation much.
Paladin55
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1/23/2011  2:15 AM
It has been a major issue for the team, and a major complaint of mine (along with not using the backboard on shorter, angled, jumpers).

Refs will let you get away with some aggressive boxing out if you have position- Amare and Turiaf, who are frequently guarding the other team's bigs, have to get position, pick a man and box out 5+ FT from the basket, and they have to be doing this when the opposition's shot is in the air, not wait until it hits the rim.

Very frustrating, and this is not brain surgery we are talking about.

Definitely a lost art.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Ira
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1/23/2011  6:27 AM
Good thread. There isn't much more to say. Our guys just have to do it.
orangeblobman
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1/23/2011  9:32 AM
You gotta have the fundamentals down, hoops fundamentals. It's like when I'm in rec league, I focus on the fundamentals and get results while some of the other jokers try to go flashy, they try to behind-the-back pass, they try to do the fancy stuff. That ain't me. That shouldn't be the Knicks.

I don't blame MDA, I blame Herb Williams. What is that joker still doing on the staff, what does he contribute to the team? You get someone else in there instead of Herb and the fundamentals will improve. I mean, look, you're at NBA level, why are you not boxing out and using the backboard?

WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
Markji
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1/23/2011  9:44 AM
Boxing out and rebounding - We need David Lee back....or a DLee type of player. Lee was very good at boxing out his man. That is why he got 10 rpg. However he was not good at help defense or blocking shots. He stayed with his man, boxed him out most of the time, and got the rebound if there was a miss.

Amare and Turiaf block shots and are good at picking up the driving player, but it leaves their man open for rebounds or passes. This is a generalization....you can find plays to counter this argument, but this will be the trend. To get more rebounds, we need a rebounding center or PF. However, if they don't have an outside shot, then we don't spread the floor enough for the PnR. And that is our game. So MDA tends to go small, spread the floor, and not be strong on the inside.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
ramtour420
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1/23/2011  4:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/23/2011  4:50 PM
Perhaps one of the issues is trying to do too much at the same time. I know that we like to push the pace, even off of made shots. I like the idea of getting a rebound or block and initiating a transition. However, when the opponent shoots , if one of 5 guys is getting ready to sprint up court, and our big men are trying to block a shot - the other 2 guys usually get caught in no mans land. Result is often a second opportunity for the opposition which results in the highest % shot possible for them. So what can we do? How about we change it a bit. If they are taking it to the rim - we should help our shot blockers, with other guys boxing out. I'd rather prioritize stopping the opponent from scoring off of rebounds and THEN initiating a fast break. But, you might say, We wount score as many fast break points ! Well, I think we could have the same amount of fast break opportunities or more(rebounds and blocks that result in us getting the ball = more posessions), and the opposing team will score less, they will be even less willing to attack the paint and our bigs will feel more comfortable going after blocks. If our opponent lauches a 3 ball- then we could start sprinting up court and trying to get a long rebound to help the cause. When they try to take it inside on us, 2 guys trying to block the shot, 2 more guys boxing out and 1 guy rinning across the court around the foul line to pick up loose balls could solve our rebounding woes, add more posessions, and therefore scoring opportunities.

The only downside that I can think of is that it requires at least one person to dive into the paint to establish position before the shot goes up. This leaves somebody open on the opposing team. And every team has a couple of shooters who you cannot leave open. Thing is tho, the more dangerous shooters they have - the harder is is to "cheat" this way and give yourself the clear advantage. Inn reality tho, you only really need one extra person in the paint. If our shot blocker's man(mostly C or PF) gets boxed out, we have a clear advantage. The beauty of this is that even a PG or SG can run in front of that slow C/PF and the smaller defender will get alot of calls for someone much bigger showing them in the back. All of our starters could be great at this. Chandler, Gallo, Fields all are quick and could do this very effectively.

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
Markji
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1/23/2011  6:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/23/2011  6:52 PM
ramtour420 wrote:Perhaps one of the issues is trying to do too much at the same time. I know that we like to push the pace, even off of made shots. I like the idea of getting a rebound or block and initiating a transition. However, when the opponent shoots , if one of 5 guys is getting ready to sprint up court, and our big men are trying to block a shot - the other 2 guys usually get caught in no mans land. Result is often a second opportunity for the opposition which results in the highest % shot possible for them. So what can we do? How about we change it a bit. If they are taking it to the rim - we should help our shot blockers, with other guys boxing out. I'd rather prioritize stopping the opponent from scoring off of rebounds and THEN initiating a fast break. But, you might say, We wount score as many fast break points ! Well, I think we could have the same amount of fast break opportunities or more(rebounds and blocks that result in us getting the ball = more posessions), and the opposing team will score less, they will be even less willing to attack the paint and our bigs will feel more comfortable going after blocks. If our opponent lauches a 3 ball- then we could start sprinting up court and trying to get a long rebound to help the cause. When they try to take it inside on us, 2 guys trying to block the shot, 2 more guys boxing out and 1 guy rinning across the court around the foul line to pick up loose balls could solve our rebounding woes, add more posessions, and therefore scoring opportunities.

The only downside that I can think of is that it requires at least one person to dive into the paint to establish position before the shot goes up. This leaves somebody open on the opposing team. And every team has a couple of shooters who you cannot leave open. Thing is tho, the more dangerous shooters they have - the harder is is to "cheat" this way and give yourself the clear advantage. Inn reality tho, you only really need one extra person in the paint. If our shot blocker's man(mostly C or PF) gets boxed out, we have a clear advantage. The beauty of this is that even a PG or SG can run in front of that slow C/PF and the smaller defender will get alot of calls for someone much bigger showing them in the back. All of our starters could be great at this. Chandler, Gallo, Fields all are quick and could do this very effectively.

We do some of your suggestions but not enough. Fields does come in from the 2 guard and scoop up a lot of rebounds instead of charging off downcourt. Also, I do agree we should sometimes go big and take back the inside. We can alternate styles a bit. However, we need to get the player who can be tough inside as well as run the court and shoot from the outside. So who can do that and is he available? Ramtour,"Imagine" if we can get both him and Melo!
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
ItalianStallion
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1/23/2011  8:48 PM
It was obvious rebounding was going to be a problem at the start of the year. Amare is a below average rebounder compared to the typical C (which is where he is playing much of the time). Chandler is about an average rebounder for a SF, but he plays PF. So he's below average. Gallo is a below average rebounder for a SF. Turiaf is below average as a C. If it wasn't for us getting lucky in the draft with Fields who is spectacular compared to other SGs, we would really be screwed. The only other good rebounder on the team is Randolph. YES RANDOLPH. He has far and away the best rebound rate on the team, is averaging 11 boards per 36 minutes (the same as he did in many minutes with GS). But he can't shoot shoot from the outside so he's in the D'Antoni **** house soon to be traded away and eventually become an all star when he is used properly and allowed to mature and develop.
jrodmc
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1/24/2011  9:39 AM
Markji wrote:Boxing out and rebounding - We need David Lee back....or a DLee type of player. Lee was very good at boxing out his man. That is why he got 10 rpg. However he was not good at help defense or blocking shots. He stayed with his man, boxed him out most of the time, and got the rebound if there was a miss.

Yeah, I'd love to go back to having 10 wins as we approach the All Star break.

Markji wrote:Amare and Turiaf block shots and are good at picking up the driving player, but it leaves their man open for rebounds or passes. This is a generalization....you can find plays to counter this argument, but this will be the trend. To get more rebounds, we need a rebounding center or PF. However, if they don't have an outside shot, then we don't spread the floor enough for the PnR. And that is our game. So MDA tends to go small, spread the floor, and not be strong on the inside.

Is there ANY chance for Eddy Curry to reinvent himself? Maybe if he got weird haircut... What happened to the whole Anthony Mason personal trainer/mentor thing?

arkrud
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1/24/2011  9:48 AM
jrodmc wrote:
Markji wrote:Boxing out and rebounding - We need David Lee back....or a DLee type of player. Lee was very good at boxing out his man. That is why he got 10 rpg. However he was not good at help defense or blocking shots. He stayed with his man, boxed him out most of the time, and got the rebound if there was a miss.

Yeah, I'd love to go back to having 10 wins as we approach the All Star break.

Markji wrote:Amare and Turiaf block shots and are good at picking up the driving player, but it leaves their man open for rebounds or passes. This is a generalization....you can find plays to counter this argument, but this will be the trend. To get more rebounds, we need a rebounding center or PF. However, if they don't have an outside shot, then we don't spread the floor enough for the PnR. And that is our game. So MDA tends to go small, spread the floor, and not be strong on the inside.

Is there ANY chance for Eddy Curry to reinvent himself? Maybe if he got weird haircut... What happened to the whole Anthony Mason personal trainer/mentor thing?

I think he realized very fast that these guys are lost course on rebounding and went home to avoid farther embarrassment.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
ramtour420
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1/24/2011  2:10 PM
Eddie Curry, in his best days was a well below average rebounder for his position. Well. Rebounding is (skill mostly, some athletic ability and a bit of talent) the skill part could be learned, athletic ability could change but not as much as skill and talent cannot be changed at all. The best rebounders have worked on it their whole careers. Eddie Curry turned out to have little talent and his only skill was to put the ball into the hoop from 5 feet or closer. As for boxing out, you don't even have to be that athletic to run in as the shot goes up to box out. Its a different from fighting for position down low to try to score in the post. Kurt Thomas, Oak they didn't really leave their feet, but they boxed out and were better rebounders because of it.
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
orangeblobman
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1/24/2011  2:36 PM
ramtour420 wrote:Eddie Curry, in his best days was a well below average rebounder for his position. Well. Rebounding is (skill mostly, some athletic ability and a bit of talent) the skill part could be learned, athletic ability could change but not as much as skill and talent cannot be changed at all. The best rebounders have worked on it their whole careers. Eddie Curry turned out to have little talent and his only skill was to put the ball into the hoop from 5 feet or closer. As for boxing out, you don't even have to be that athletic to run in as the shot goes up to box out. Its a different from fighting for position down low to try to score in the post. Kurt Thomas, Oak they didn't really leave their feet, but they boxed out and were better rebounders because of it.

Rebounding is heart, too. Heart plays a big role. You have to want the ball like you want your life, you have to want the ball with the same desire you have for living another day. Rodman, he wanted the ball, he wanted the ball like his life depended on it.

WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
ramtour420
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1/24/2011  3:27 PM
orangeblobman wrote:
ramtour420 wrote:Eddie Curry, in his best days was a well below average rebounder for his position. Well. Rebounding is (skill mostly, some athletic ability and a bit of talent) the skill part could be learned, athletic ability could change but not as much as skill and talent cannot be changed at all. The best rebounders have worked on it their whole careers. Eddie Curry turned out to have little talent and his only skill was to put the ball into the hoop from 5 feet or closer. As for boxing out, you don't even have to be that athletic to run in as the shot goes up to box out. Its a different from fighting for position down low to try to score in the post. Kurt Thomas, Oak they didn't really leave their feet, but they boxed out and were better rebounders because of it.

Rebounding is heart, too. Heart plays a big role. You have to want the ball like you want your life, you have to want the ball with the same desire you have for living another day. Rodman, he wanted the ball, he wanted the ball like his life depended on it.


Heart falls under the talent category. I see what you are saying tho- Oak and Crazy Eyes did not have the athletic ability as much as they had the talent, the heart for rebounding. Rodman was skilled, athletic and a talented rebounder- arguably one of the best rebounders ever.
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
Markji
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1/24/2011  3:32 PM
jrodmc wrote:
Markji wrote:Boxing out and rebounding - We need David Lee back....or a DLee type of player. Lee was very good at boxing out his man. That is why he got 10 rpg. However he was not good at help defense or blocking shots. He stayed with his man, boxed him out most of the time, and got the rebound if there was a miss.

Yeah, I'd love to go back to having 10 wins as we approach the All Star break.

Markji wrote:Amare and Turiaf block shots and are good at picking up the driving player, but it leaves their man open for rebounds or passes. This is a generalization....you can find plays to counter this argument, but this will be the trend. To get more rebounds, we need a rebounding center or PF. However, if they don't have an outside shot, then we don't spread the floor enough for the PnR. And that is our game. So MDA tends to go small, spread the floor, and not be strong on the inside.

Is there ANY chance for Eddy Curry to reinvent himself? Maybe if he got weird haircut... What happened to the whole Anthony Mason personal trainer/mentor thing?


1. Why would you want to have only 10 wins by the All-star break? You sound like a Knicks hater.

2. Eddie Curry??? You've got to be kidding. Eddie never could rebound well; box out; nor block shots.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
jrodmc
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1/25/2011  9:59 AM
Markji wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
Markji wrote:Boxing out and rebounding - We need David Lee back....or a DLee type of player. Lee was very good at boxing out his man. That is why he got 10 rpg. However he was not good at help defense or blocking shots. He stayed with his man, boxed him out most of the time, and got the rebound if there was a miss.

Yeah, I'd love to go back to having 10 wins as we approach the All Star break.

Markji wrote:Amare and Turiaf block shots and are good at picking up the driving player, but it leaves their man open for rebounds or passes. This is a generalization....you can find plays to counter this argument, but this will be the trend. To get more rebounds, we need a rebounding center or PF. However, if they don't have an outside shot, then we don't spread the floor enough for the PnR. And that is our game. So MDA tends to go small, spread the floor, and not be strong on the inside.

Is there ANY chance for Eddy Curry to reinvent himself? Maybe if he got weird haircut... What happened to the whole Anthony Mason personal trainer/mentor thing?


1. Why would you want to have only 10 wins by the All-star break? You sound like a Knicks hater.

2. Eddie Curry??? You've got to be kidding. Eddie never could rebound well; box out; nor block shots.

1. Actually, I'm a card carrying charter member of the DLee haters club. My point, clearly, was that getting DLee would equate to going backwards in time. Do you remember the last 2-3 years? Hello?

2. Which is why I was hoping Eddy Curry could reinvent himself. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it, Markji?

Markji
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1/25/2011  10:50 AM
jrodmc wrote:
Markji wrote:
jrodmc wrote:
Markji wrote:Boxing out and rebounding - We need David Lee back....or a DLee type of player. Lee was very good at boxing out his man. That is why he got 10 rpg. However he was not good at help defense or blocking shots. He stayed with his man, boxed him out most of the time, and got the rebound if there was a miss.

Yeah, I'd love to go back to having 10 wins as we approach the All Star break.

Markji wrote:Amare and Turiaf block shots and are good at picking up the driving player, but it leaves their man open for rebounds or passes. This is a generalization....you can find plays to counter this argument, but this will be the trend. To get more rebounds, we need a rebounding center or PF. However, if they don't have an outside shot, then we don't spread the floor enough for the PnR. And that is our game. So MDA tends to go small, spread the floor, and not be strong on the inside.

Is there ANY chance for Eddy Curry to reinvent himself? Maybe if he got weird haircut... What happened to the whole Anthony Mason personal trainer/mentor thing?


1. Why would you want to have only 10 wins by the All-star break? You sound like a Knicks hater.

2. Eddie Curry??? You've got to be kidding. Eddie never could rebound well; box out; nor block shots.

1. Actually, I'm a card carrying charter member of the DLee haters club. My point, clearly, was that getting DLee would equate to going backwards in time. Do you remember the last 2-3 years? Hello?

2. Which is why I was hoping Eddy Curry could reinvent himself. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it, Markji?


Duh!
My point was to highlight a player who boxes out under the boards. David Lee or a David Lee type player. Not instead of Amare, but in addition. My original point was that there are different types of players who have different styles of playing and different skill sets. I was analyzing PF. David Lee boxed out his man and got rebounds. Our present Knicks don't do that. I believe, that is the title and subject of this thread, if I read it correctly??, so that is what I discussed. There have been numerous threads addressing the issue of us needing another rebounding Big inside but the real question is how to make MDA's system work if you add another big. You still need to spread the floor and when you do, you lose some control of inside.

Since you didn't discuss or address this issue, and attacked me a bit, in fun I'm sure, I just played around with you and answered with tongue-in-cheek, trying to bust your balls sarcasm! But we are both on the same side as we both want the Knicks to win.

Lets Go Knicks!

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
jrodmc
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1/25/2011  11:03 AM
Peace, bro. It's hard to read pure sarcasm in here, without graphics or some sort of icon.
In defense of my comments, I was proposing that what we really need, as it's been raised in several other threads, is a Glen Davis type that can box and rebound without giving up the lane like a cheap ho (see DLee on defense).

Yes, probably a bit unrealistic, but given we have an 11 million dollar waste of life sitting on the bench with just the right body type to fit the need, I was dreaming of happier things than...
Turiaf - spending career balance on injured list, waiting for Herb Williams to retire so he can asst coach
Moz - at least two years away, barring any injuries (I don't believe in jinxes)
AR - career project, should be spending time ripping up the DLeague

Markji
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1/25/2011  11:22 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/25/2011  11:23 AM
jrodmc wrote:Peace, bro. It's hard to read pure sarcasm in here, without graphics or some sort of icon.
In defense of my comments, I was proposing that what we really need, as it's been raised in several other threads, is a Glen Davis type that can box and rebound without giving up the lane like a cheap ho (see DLee on defense).
OK - no problem!
I think Glen Davis is good for the Celtics offense but I am not sure he could handle ours (too much running)...or that Mike 'A would play him much. And that is the problem. The player needs to fit our system, not the other way around. Sort of why I like Carl Landry. He is a big who can hustle, run, play inside and has a descent mid-range shot.

jrodmc wrote:Yes, probably a bit unrealistic, but given we have an 11 million dollar waste of life sitting on the bench with just the right body type to fit the need, I was dreaming of happier things than...
Turiaf - spending career balance on injured list, waiting for Herb Williams to retire so he can asst coach
Moz - at least two years away, barring any injuries (I don't believe in jinxes)
AR - career project, should be spending time ripping up the DLeague
I also used to think and hope/expect Eddie would get his head together and play again. But I don't think MDA will ever give him another chance, so time to move on.
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
FistOfOakley
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1/25/2011  11:29 AM
there are so many mechanics to rebounding the ball but a lot of is just plain athleticism... alot of times rebounds will just fall to you but more often than not, you just have to go up and get it. alot of offensive rebounds we're giving up is us either not jumping high enough and tipping the ball or it's us trying to tip the ball out. other times it's plain not even jumping or we have two people going for the block.

nobody is going to turn into a great rebounder overnight. chandler maybe in a few years might average 8 or 9 but he is who he is for this season.

Knicks: Box out please

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