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Probably the most balanced take on Melo I've read so far
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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1/18/2011  12:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/18/2011  12:34 PM

Unlike fellow small forwards Kevin Durant and LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony has a refined post game.

Points per game.

By this measure, Carmelo Anthony, with his career 25 points per game scoring average, is a superstar. He's worth the Knicks' or Nets' max contracts. He'll sell tickets. He'll put his NBA team in the mix to win a title. He has that rare something that the best teams need.

Of course, the field of advanced basketball statistics is fueled in no small part by the broad and growing realization that points per game is about as dumb as basketball statistics get, at least as a ranking of total player quality.

Nevertheless, it's the stat that has long dominated the conversation.

But there's a surprise: In this case, points per game may actually lead, in its kooky foolishness, to a solid conclusion.

Hypnotized by buckets
It's not just fans who are enchanted by big scoring totals -- owners and front offices evidently are too. High-scoring players have a shabby correlation with wins but strong ties to the most important incentive for players: NBA income.

The advanced stats community exists in no small part to assault this mindless stat's choke-hold on the league's analysis. Points per game is such a blunt instrument, without a care even for minutes played, fouls drawn or shots taken (to say nothing of defense played, rebounds grabbed, double-teams drawn, or passes completed).

A player focused on this metric knows no such thing as a bad shot. Stephon Marbury and Allen Iverson won huge contracts playing dazzling basketball which satisfied this measure but -- riddled with misses -- was unlikely to ever lead to a title. Ineffective defense, inefficient scoring, and underutilized teammates condemned those squads to the middle of the pack.

There are strong signs Anthony may be the latest in this line. Do the Nets, who are openly lusting for Anthony to lead their salvation, not realize this?

Fool's gold
Among prominent stat geeks, David Berri created the formula that is least appreciative of high-volume shooters, and of Anthony. Berri condemns the perennial All-Star by calling him merely an average NBA player.

John Hollinger's PER is significantly different from Berri's analysis -- generally more favorable to scorers -- but even there Anthony is, hardly a first-team all NBA player, barely cracking the league's top 40. (Anthony's less-heralded teammate Nene, for instance, ranks higher.)

A lot of players make contributions that are not charted in any public way -- individual defensive stops, for instance. The Shane Battiers of the world fare poorly in statistics, like Berri's and Hollinger's, based on box scores. But Anthony's main contribution, scoring, is the most documented act in the game. Nevertheless, the best scoring metric, true shooting percentage, which incorporates the value of 3-pointers and free throws, finds Anthony to be way down in Sebastian Telfair territory, around 200th out of 331 players.

If all he does is score, and he doesn't do that very efficiently ... why is it, again, that the Nets would give up a small army of prospects and picks, not to mention tens of millions in long-term salary ... for him?

Skill
NBA players know basketball as well as anyone, and it's hard to find players calling Anthony anything other than an elite force.

What are they seeing?

Part of it, undoubtedly, is scoring skill. This is the category where Kobe Bryant -- another player who shows up better in player quotes than efficiency stats -- excels. That's scoring against all odds. Making more than your fair share of shots when the odds are stacked against you.

I was once lucky enough to spend half a week "training like a pro" under the tutelage of David Thorpe in Florida. Thorpe normally trains NBA players like Kevin Martin and Yi Jianlian. But that week, he trained a posse of weekend warrior NBA journalists.

We spent some time catching the ball at the shoulder, with no defense, and then executing moves Thorpe barked out. Pivot on your left foot, jab step with the right, one dribble, finish. Same thing, with a ball fake after the jab. How about a freeze fake, or a faked pass?

Things to keep in mind: How to distribute weight to be quick to pass, drive or shoot. Not taking a small step backward when you mean to go forward. Where to put the ball (on your hip) as you take that all-important first step. How to make the jab (short and quick). How to jump at the rim (straight up, to enable creative finishes with either hand). The riddle of finishing at the rim with contact. And on and on.

Any one aspect of all this is simple, but even without defense, just about none of us completed perfect sequences before we were out of time. By contrast, making a series of correct reads, decisions and moves, against defenders with NBA size and athleticism, is art.

And in this, Anthony is Picasso.

"He's the best pure scoring small forward in the world," says Thorpe. "By pure scorer, I mean, if you just have one possession, he's the toughest matchup for a defender. He can shoot a 3. He can pull up. He can dribble drive. The triple threat game is very sophisticated. He's dynamite once he gets in the lane. And unlike LeBron James or Kevin Durant, Carmelo has a mature and reliable post game. LeBron is a better all-around player, but Anthony's the better bucket getter."

Of course, it's possible that those skills are mere baubles. So what if you can score against a double team, when the easier play of passing to the open shooter in the corner might just be the smarter move? (Isn't it telling that two of the best "pure scorers" in the game are also surprisingly inefficient?)

Making it easier for teammates to score
Over the weekend, Nate Silver published a quick analysis of Anthony on The New York Times site that pointed out that while Anthony might not pass the ball to his teammates all that much -- his assists are few and far between -- he is evidently still helping them score. Silver based his conclusion on an analysis saying that his teammates who have played elsewhere in the NBA tend to score more efficiently with Anthony on their team.

This makes some sense. There are a limited number of ways to get an NBA defense seriously discombobulated. One of them is to draw a double team, which forces rotations. Teams prepare for that, and have schemes to double the best players in their favorite spots. Anthony has favorite spots all over the court.

Thorpe says he sees it with his own two eyes.

"We have a drill where we teach players to watch for the back of the defensive player's head," says Thorpe, who has trained some of Anthony's teammates through the years. "You're standing on the wing on the weak side, and some guy is guarding you. If he's a good defender, he'll be paying attention to you and the ball, and where the great scorers are. They're going to track Carmelo. When the defense is tuned into someone like him, every now and again, they might turn their head all the way toward Carmelo. I teach my guys: The second you see the back of your defender's head, you cut. Either baseline, or face cut. You go hard and immediately."

Anthony need not be the one to make the pass for that plan to work. He nearly needs to be a threat -- to have opponents look at him can be enough, on some possessions. This is surely the kind of thing Silver was talking about -- and it's only a small part of how a star-jittery defense can make things easy for an elite scorer's teammates.

It's worth noting that as Anthony has been a fairly inefficient scorer in Denver all these years, the team has averaged an impressive 48 wins per season, after winning just 17 the season before he arrived. (Worth noting that the Lakers have been winning plenty with another "inefficient" player in Bryant.) There's also another statistic befuddling the idea that Anthony's teams can't win: One. As in, the number of NCAA championships he won in a single year at Syracuse.

That said, Silver's analysis is far from the final word. Critics point out Silver failed to note that his teammates who showed improvement were also largely at ages when scoring efficiency improves anyway, and that George Karl's coaching or Chauncey Billups' distributing could also account for parts of the same effect.

ESPN's Tom Haberstroh adds that Anthony may help his teammates score more efficiently, but wonders at the power of that effect, when you see that his teammates score even more efficiently when he's on the bench (with a 2.4 point better effective field goal percentage this season, and 1.9 percent last season).

Believe it or not, it is possible that Anthony could help his teammates score even when he's on the bench, by drawing the fouls that not only earn his team points, but also help the Nuggets get in the bonus. After a team has four fouls in a quarter, or one in a quarter's final two minutes, every additional foul is rewarded with free throws. NBA offenses are vastly more efficient in the bonus -- imagine points without as much wear and tear on players or time off the clock. The Nuggets are very near the top of the league in time spent in the bonus this season.

Plus/minus story
Plus/minus numbers can help here, and according to BasketballValue those statistics like Anthony about as much as PER does. His two-year adjusted plus/minus, according to Basketball Value (accounting for the quality of the nine other players on the court), is plus-4.8, which ranks him 33rd this season.

His unadjusted numbers tell a fascinating story, however. The Nuggets are actually producing worse on offense when he's in by about 2.5 points per 100 possessions, but better on defense by 5.4 points. This continues a trend over the last three years where he went from plus-8 offense to plus-4.2 and now plus-2.5 over the last three seasons.

On defense, he's gone from 5.2 points worse per 100 possessions four years ago to close to neutral to, now, making the team 5.4 points per 100 possessions better on defense.

His offense has declined in large part because his field goal percentage has fallen, which has a big effect on players who shoot a lot. His assist numbers are also down.

On defense, he's rebounding better this year and fouling less.

The Daryl Morey factor
This March in Boston, there will be vast halls full of stat geeks, any number of whom might tell you it's nutty to expect Anthony to make a bad team good. But that MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference is organized by Dork Elvis himself, Rockets GM Daryl Morey, who commands the biggest team of analysts in the sport.

There is no case to be made that the Rockets don't appreciate the lessons of modern basketball analysis. In assessing Anthony, it's worth noting that Morey has repeatedly spoken about how elite scorers are necessary to win titles. It's also worth noting that Morey has reportedly been dogged in his pursuit of Anthony. If true, it's a powerful message that at the highest levels of statistical analysis, Anthony can indeed be seen as worth a maximum contract.

A Nets audience beyond geeks
Wins are the end of the rainbow, for most people who matter in the NBA. Anthony may rightly be judged by his ability to deliver them. But he offers more.

For the Nets, there is another game to be played, off the court, which hinges very much on image, narrative and reputation. Let's say the team has a long-term plan to lure Chris Paul when he can opt out of his Hornets contract in the summer of 2012. A first-rate guard like Paul is unlikely to join a starless Nets team, no matter how powerful the lure of big, wealthy Brooklyn.

But remember, players revere Anthony's skills. Becoming the second Nets star, alongside Anthony, may be far more appealing to Paul than being the first. In other words Anthony has credibility with top free agents.

And with Brooklynites.

The Nets will sell plenty of tickets in New York. But they have an opportunity to consume New York City and a sports-hungry and deep-pocketed borough. Remember, though, while New Yorkers have disposable income for things like Nets tickets, they also have nearly limitless competition for those dollars. If the show consists of hard-working types like Louis Amundson, there's little chance the Nets will unseat the Knicks, the Yankees or any other number of music performances as the place for celebrities to be seen in the stands.

Anthony, on the other hand, is a big name who makes highlights. He's also somebody who grew up in Red Hook, about a 15-minute bike ride from the Nets' under-construction arena. Brooklyn will root for a guy like that for reasons that go far beyond basketball. (And, as Amare Stoudemire and the Knicks are proving currently, New York basketball fans have had it so bad for so long that they'll go crazy for a team that is just pretty good.)

Melo's not just a basketball player, he's a narrative: If you won't head out to the arena to see wins, you might come to see a player with a story, much like we all buy tickets to see movies starring celebrities we identify with for some personal reason or another.

An evolving player
Anthony is not quite what he seems. Perhaps the most skilled scorer at his position in the world, he is nevertheless a fairly inefficient, high-volume and maybe even declining scorer with, apparently, only a limited ability to make his teammates more efficient at that end of the floor. Tough though that dynamic may be to demonstrate, his teams also tend to win a lot, all the same.

Beyond the power of hypnotizing all five defenders at once, or getting his team into the bonus, another possible explanation: He' evidently not the laughingstock he once was on defense. NBA front office personnel speaking on background for this article reminded again and again that recent history has shown us that great coaching can make mediocre defenders like Ray Allen and Hedo Turkoglu key parts of elite defenses. Although such transformations are rare, Anthony is well-equipped. His team is playing better defense with him on the floor right now than when he sits, which is new, but supported by a multi-year trend.

Meanwhile, rebounding tells a powerful story about what Anthony can do when focused. His supporters have long conceded that this is simply not his forte. But he has quietly become literally the best rebounding small forward in the NBA. He averaged about two double-digit rebound games a season in his first five years in the NBA. This season he already has four. He has traditionally grabbed fewer than 10 percent of the available rebounds -- this year he's over 13 percent.

Thinking back to all of those drills in David Thorpe's gym, it's clear that anyone who can master all that footwork must have both a massive capacity for work, and a certain brilliance in making exceptionally quick reads and decisions. Anthony's career has demonstrated time and again that he has all of that, which can be deployed in many aspects of basketball: scoring over double-teams, drawing fouls, winning rebounding battles and more.

Is all of that enough of a contribution, given how many shots Anthony's sure to miss, to lead a team to an NBA title? Maybe, if you squint at the numbers the right way. But it's certainly enough to dream on, and for a team like the Nets, that's probably more than enough.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
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Killa4luv
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1/18/2011  1:15 PM
These are points, me, TMS and many many others have been making all along. I have said this 2 million times:
Melo is a complete offensive player, there is literally nothing on the court that he cannot do.

I just finished having the Melo - Durant discussion with my best friend. Durant is a jump shooter who can also drive to the basket. He is 6-9 with super long arms and no post game. This could and should change, but if it does not, he will be Dirk Nowitski part II. NOt bad at all, but underachieving imo.

Melo is a special talent and his acquisition brings us closer to contention. Add Marc Gasol and I think we're there. We'll probably have to change the coach though.

martin
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1/18/2011  1:20 PM
Killa4luv wrote:These are points, me, TMS and many many others have been making all along. I have said this 2 million times:
Melo is a complete offensive player, there is literally nothing on the court that he cannot do.

I just finished having the Melo - Durant discussion with my best friend. Durant is a jump shooter who can also drive to the basket. He is 6-9 with super long arms and no post game. This could and should change, but if it does not, he will be Dirk Nowitski part II. NOt bad at all, but underachieving imo.

Melo is a special talent and his acquisition brings us closer to contention. Add Marc Gasol and I think we're there. We'll probably have to change the coach though.

Melo can't shoot 3's.

Also, by adding Melo, you kinda negate adding anything else significant, right?

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fishmike
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1/18/2011  1:22 PM
result	G	MIN	FG%	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%	STL	BLK	TO	OFF	DEF	TOT	AST	PTS			
wins 20 33.3 44.054 0.333 6.8-8.2 82.317 0.75 0.65 2.5 1.5 5.9 7.4 3.5 23.8
losses 13 37.2 42.276 0.16 5.8-7.5 77.551 1.15 0.69 3.5 2.6 6.6 9.2 2.3 22.2

Its a good read... it acknowledges Melo is a very special scorer. It acknowledges that has a high value around the league and it also acknowledges the holes in his game and the reason(s) he's not in the tier of some of the other guys mentioned.

I hope what I have hoped all along, that he disses the Nets and that Denver has a Lebron panic and takes a 2nd rate package from the Knicks. In Walsh we trust

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Killa4luv
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1/18/2011  1:23 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/18/2011  1:28 PM
martin wrote:
Killa4luv wrote:These are points, me, TMS and many many others have been making all along. I have said this 2 million times:
Melo is a complete offensive player, there is literally nothing on the court that he cannot do.

I just finished having the Melo - Durant discussion with my best friend. Durant is a jump shooter who can also drive to the basket. He is 6-9 with super long arms and no post game. This could and should change, but if it does not, he will be Dirk Nowitski part II. NOt bad at all, but underachieving imo.

Melo is a special talent and his acquisition brings us closer to contention. Add Marc Gasol and I think we're there. We'll probably have to change the coach though.

Melo can't shoot 3's.

Also, by adding Melo, you kinda negate adding anything else significant, right?

Melo can shoot 3's. he shot 37% last year, a career high. Thats pretty good. He's not a specialist, but he can shot them. If thats the case ten Kobe can't shoot 3's.

fishmike
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1/18/2011  1:29 PM
Killa4luv wrote:These are points, me, TMS and many many others have been making all along. I have said this 2 million times:
Melo is a complete offensive player, there is literally nothing on the court that he cannot do.

I just finished having the Melo - Durant discussion with my best friend. Durant is a jump shooter who can also drive to the basket. He is 6-9 with super long arms and no post game. This could and should change, but if it does not, he will be Dirk Nowitski part II. NOt bad at all, but underachieving imo.

Melo is a special talent and his acquisition brings us closer to contention. Add Marc Gasol and I think we're there. We'll probably have to change the coach though.


No Gasol. Thats MY point. Is that you blow your wad on Mello and your still too small, cant defend, and the coach isnt fixing that. How are you getting Gasol after Melo? Or any servicible big? You will be throwing money at the Dampier's of the league. Durant vs. Melo is another arguement but Durant is 22 and that means something leading the NBA in scoring at 22.

And Kai... if Melo is so complete why is he shooting 43%?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Papabear
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1/18/2011  1:50 PM
martin wrote:
Killa4luv wrote:These are points, me, TMS and many many others have been making all along. I have said this 2 million times:
Melo is a complete offensive player, there is literally nothing on the court that he cannot do.

I just finished having the Melo - Durant discussion with my best friend. Durant is a jump shooter who can also drive to the basket. He is 6-9 with super long arms and no post game. This could and should change, but if it does not, he will be Dirk Nowitski part II. NOt bad at all, but underachieving imo.

Melo is a special talent and his acquisition brings us closer to contention. Add Marc Gasol and I think we're there. We'll probably have to change the coach though.

Melo can't shoot 3's.

Also, by adding Melo, you kinda negate adding anything else significant, right?

Papabear Says

Martin do you or do you not want Carmelo?

Papabear
GodSaveTheKnicks
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1/18/2011  2:08 PM
The Value of Carmelo Anthony
Measuring the Melo Effect

by Kevin Pelton


A fan who just began following the NBA in the last month could be forgiven for believing that Carmelo Anthony was the league's best player. Because Anthony is sure to be traded before next month's trade deadline, because said trade will likely include a team from the country's biggest media market (either the New Jersey Nets or the New York Knicks) and because there have been enough twists and turns in the rumors to sustain a miniseries, Anthony has been the subject of more recent discussion than any other NBA player.

One aspect of that conversation has centered on Anthony's value in a vacuum. Statistical analysts offer very different answers to that question, depending on which one is asked. The most recent take came from Nate Silver, who oversaw the creation of Basketball Prospectus before going on to fame and fortune as a political analyst. Silver looked at the history of player efficiency while playing for the Denver Nuggets and elsewhere, finding that players posted much better True Shooting Percentages when playing alongside Anthony:

"All but 2 of the players - Marcus Camby and Voshon Lenard - posted a higher TS% playing with Anthony than without him, and on average, he improved his teammates' TS% by 3.8 points (to 55.0 percent from 51.2 percent).

The effect of a player who improves the rest of his team's TS% by 3.8 points is extremely substantial: it is works out to their scoring about 5 or 5.5 additional points per game solely on the basis of this efficiency gain. That, in turn, translates into about 15 additional wins per season for an average team, according to a commonly-used formula. This is how Anthony creates most of his value - not in the shots he takes himself, but in the ones he creates for his teammates - and some of the “advanced” formulas completely miss it.

Essentially, Silver's argument is one in favor of the importance of shot creation. The tradeoff between usage and efficiency has been a common theme in my work for Basketball Prospectus, and my belief is the evidence strongly supports that it is real. However, the "Carmelo effect" found by Silver is much larger than the value the WARP rating system assigns him based on his usage. If Anthony used plays at an average rate (20 percent) rather than his actual 2009-10 usage (33.5 percent), his wins above replacement would have dropped from 8.6 to 3.5, putting a value of 5.1 wins on his shot creation. Even accounting for the fact that Anthony did not play a full season, that figure is much lower than the number Silver found.

Dave Berri, whose pessimistic assessment of Anthony's value helped spark Silver's analysis, responded by pointing out several factors uncontrolled for in Silver's study. In the case of players like Nenê, whose rookie season was compared to the rest of his career, aging could account for some of the benefit attributed to Anthony. Even when a player clearly improved while with the Nuggets, Silver's method is unable to distinguish whether that should be credited to Anthony's presence, George Karl's coaching or something else.

Fortunately, there is data out there that can help disentangle Anthony's impact from these other factors. Back in 2005-06, while writing for 82games.com, I used the site's player-pair statistics to evaluate how the performance of teammates of Kobe Bryant and Steve Nash changed with those players on the floor as opposed to on the bench. While 82games.com is no longer publishing detailed player-pair stats, I was able to break down the numbers from 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09 to see if Anthony's presence on the floor improves his teammates' efficiency. (Note that I did not use 2005-06 because the consistency of Karl's rotations and Anthony's health meant many starters played few minutes without Anthony on the floor.)

In addition to True Shooting Percentage, the player-pair statistics allow us to explore the other primary way Anthony can influence his teammates' performance--by limiting their turnovers. This turned out to be a major factor in the case of Nash because of how much he handles the basketball. We'll then use these numbers to create a simple Offensive Rating of points scored per 100 plays used (statistically, FGA + .44*FTA + TO).

2006-07


TS% TO% ORtg
Player with w/o diff with w/o diff with w/o diff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blake .479 .571 -.093 .213 .183 -.030 75.3 93.3 -18.0
Iverson .558 .530 .028 .147 .152 .005 95.2 89.8 5.4
Smith .589 .580 .009 .125 .087 -.039 103.1 106.0 - 2.9
Diawara .517 .425 .092 .076 .121 .045 95.5 74.7 20.8
Najera .694 .504 .190 .139 .106 -.032 119.5 90.1 29.4
Kleiza .596 .535 .061 .121 .131 .010 104.7 93.0 11.7
Evans .551 .549 .002 .223 .263 .040 85.7 80.9 4.8
Nenê .651 .543 .108 .143 .209 .065 111.6 86.0 25.6
Camby .528 .511 .017 .149 .121 -.028 89.8 89.8 0.1

Average .046 .004 8.5
Weighted .041 -.001 6.8


2006-07 was Allen Iverson's first partial season in Denver, which was also interrupted by Anthony's suspension for his role in a melee at Madison Square Garden. Because of all the changes, there are nine players who played appreciable minutes both with and without Anthony. Of these, only Steve Blake had a lower True Shooting Percentage when Anthony was on the floor. Even when we account for one of Berri's critiques by weighting the differences (in this case by the number of true shot attempts or plays used when on the court with Anthony, which will be useful later), the observed improvement in players' True Shooting Percentages is actually higher than Silver found--if, perhaps, not quite as consistent. Note that with turnovers, the positive sign on the overall average indicates turning the ball over less when Anthony plays.

2007-08

            TS%                  TO%                   ORtg
Player with w/o diff with w/o diff with w/o diff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Camby .489 .546 -.056 .140 .137 -.003 84.2 94.2 -10.0
Carter .539 .506 .032 .198 .173 -.024 86.4 83.7 2.7
Iverson .571 .558 .013 .116 .114 -.002 101.1 98.9 2.2
Smith .637 .575 .062 .107 .148 .041 113.8 98.0 15.9
Kleiza .619 .553 .066 .108 .106 -.003 110.4 99.0 11.5
Najera .502 .651 -.148 .119 .131 .013 88.5 113.0 -24.5
Martin .572 .485 .087 .104 .106 .002 102.4 86.7 15.7

Average .008 .003 1.9
Weighted .016 .000 2.9

2007-08 was the outlier of the three seasons I looked at, which may be instructive. With Iverson around for a full season, the Nuggets had a second go-to scorer, giving Karl the opportunity to make sure at least one creator was on the floor at all times. Despite that, most of Denver's role players were significantly more efficient when Anthony was on the floor. It was two of the team's lowest-usage players, Marcus Camby and Eduardo Najera, who bring down the overall numbers because they were far more efficient when playing without Anthony.

2008-09

                   TS%                  TO%                   ORtg
Player with w/o diff with w/o diff with w/o diff
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billups .593 .596 -.003 .126 .132 .006 103.7 103.5 0.2
Carter .501 .487 .015 .244 .289 .046 75.8 69.1 6.7
Smith .603 .563 .041 .103 .137 .033 108.2 97.2 11.1
Jones .569 .468 .101 .141 .152 .011 97.8 79.4 18.4
Kleiza .567 .543 .023 .095 .102 .007 102.6 97.6 5.0
Martin .557 .479 .078 .130 .119 -.011 96.9 84.5 12.4
Nenê .653 .628 .025 .118 .177 .059 115.2 103.4 11.8
Andersen .603 .610 -.007 .122 .179 .057 106.0 100.2 5.8

Average .034 .026 8.9
Weighted .032 .023 8.4


The 2008-09 season presents the strongest argument in favor of Anthony making his teammates better. Despite a strong bench led by Chris Andersen and J.R. Smith, every Nuggets player was more efficient when Anthony was on the floor. The difference was sizeable in the case of everyone save Chauncey Billups, who replaced Iverson as the team's second star. In this case, the reserves in particular tended to turn the ball over far more frequently when they did not have Anthony setting them up for easy scores.

If we combine the three seasons, here are the averages:

              TS%      TO%    ORtg
----------------------------------
Average +.031 +.011 +6.7
Weighted +.028 +.007 +5.7

Ultimately, this method shows Anthony having a smaller impact on his teammates' True Shooting Percentages than Silver found, especially when we account for the fact that his presence tends to make a greater difference for infrequent shooters. However, looking only at shooting ignores some of the benefit of Anthony reducing his teammates' turnovers. Since the average turnover rate without Anthony is 14.9 percent, a drop of even 0.7 percent is worth noting. Adding the two factors together, the player-pair statistics show Anthony improving the efficiency of his teammates by 5.7 points per 100 plays.

This weighted figure allows us to estimate the value of the Carmelo effect. During 2009-10, he was on the floor for 90 plays per game (this is more than the team's pace would indicate because there can be multiple plays on a single possession in the case of offensive rebounds). Anthony himself averaged 30 plays per game, leaving 60 plays a night used by his teammates. An improvement of 5.7 points in their simple Offensive Rating translates to 3.4 points per game that can be credited to Anthony drawing the defense. Using the rule of thumb that each point of differential is worth approximately 2.7 wins over the course of the season, the Carmelo effect appears to create 9.3 wins per 82 games, or 7.5 over the 66 games Anthony actually played last season--a figure 50 percent higher than the value WARP assigns his usage.

Using plus-minus statistics provides another way of checking Anthony's impact on the Denver offense. The Nuggets are actually scoring better without Anthony this season, but that is out of line with his plus-minus history (via BasketballValue.com and 82games.com). Prior to this year, Denver's Offensive Rating was at least 2.0 points better per 100 possessions in every year of Anthony's career. The average impact in this span was +4.6 points per 100 possessions. Despite the fact that his own efficiency has been middling at times, Anthony has consistently lifted the Nuggets' offense with his ability to create shots.

As Silver noted, there is still an important aspect of "fit" that cannot be removed from the numbers. Denver has been able to build a lineup around Anthony's high usage. The Nuggets have put a series of low-usage, defensive-minded shooting guards alongside him on the wings, for example. With another team already blessed with shot creators, like the Knicks, the value of Anthony's usage might be limited. In a vacuum, however, a variety of different numbers point to similar conclusions. We may not be able to put an exact number on how many wins Anthony's ability to create means for his team, but it appears to be larger than zero and substantial enough to make him an All-Star-caliber player despite his other shortcomings.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
GodSaveTheKnicks
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1/18/2011  2:10 PM
Funny fact: Lebron, Kobe, Melo, DWade are all not really great 3 pt shooters at all. I've seen all of them get hot from 3 but all of those guys have not improved their 3 point stroke since getting into the league, yet they keep shooting them

It's kind of weird.

Kobe Bryant is pretty smart. He works harder than anyone in the league. He should have noticed this and either stopped taking 3s altogether or worked to get better at taking them.

I would say either you have it or you don't but after reading about Derrick Rose working on his outside J all offseason and then seeing the results, I'm perplexed as to why these stars who get there with crazy work ethics can't do what Rose did.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
AnubisADL
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1/18/2011  2:19 PM
I dont recall Paul Pierce being looked at as a great player before he teamed up with Garnett and Allen.

Amare and Carmelo together will change alot of minds.

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martin
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1/18/2011  2:46 PM
AnubisADL wrote:I dont recall Paul Pierce being looked at as a great player before he teamed up with Garnett and Allen.

Amare and Carmelo together will change alot of minds.

which one of our Amare and Melo will play the defensive role that Garnett plays? Thanks kinda the key, right?

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Paladin55
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1/18/2011  2:48 PM
AnubisADL wrote:I dont recall Paul Pierce being looked at as a great player before he teamed up with Garnett and Allen.

Amare and Carmelo together will change alot of minds.

The guy was a darn good player between the 2000-2001 season and the 2006-2007 (the year before he got his title), with SF stats that were as balanced as anyone who plays the position.

Of course he never even won more than 49 games until the other two (and some others) showed up.

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Paladin55
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1/18/2011  2:50 PM
martin wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I dont recall Paul Pierce being looked at as a great player before he teamed up with Garnett and Allen.

Amare and Carmelo together will change alot of minds.

which one of our Amare and Melo will play the defensive role that Garnett plays? Thanks kinda the key, right?

You figure that both might tighten things up during the playoffs, but I would not expect an overabundance of effort on D by both of them during the regular season.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
AnubisADL
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1/18/2011  2:51 PM
Paladin55 wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I dont recall Paul Pierce being looked at as a great player before he teamed up with Garnett and Allen.

Amare and Carmelo together will change alot of minds.

The guy was a darn good player between the 2000-2001 season and the 2006-2007 (the year before he got his title), with SF stats that were as balanced as anyone who plays the position.

Of course he never even won more than 49 games until the other two (and some others) showed up.

Boston was in lottery land just like the Knicks man. As I said Paul Pierce wasnt considered all that just a few years ago.

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TMS
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1/18/2011  2:52 PM
Killa4luv wrote:These are points, me, TMS and many many others have been making all along. I have said this 2 million times:
Melo is a complete offensive player, there is literally nothing on the court that he cannot do.

I just finished having the Melo - Durant discussion with my best friend. Durant is a jump shooter who can also drive to the basket. He is 6-9 with super long arms and no post game. This could and should change, but if it does not, he will be Dirk Nowitski part II. NOt bad at all, but underachieving imo.

Melo is a special talent and his acquisition brings us closer to contention. Add Marc Gasol and I think we're there. We'll probably have to change the coach though.

Killa, i've tried to address the Melo - Durant comparisons numerous times on this forum but it seems like people just think Durant is in a different league... i could never understand it... each guy does things better than the other in different aspects of their game, but as a whole i think Melo has the more well rounded offensive skillset & as a whole is easily on the same level as a basketball player... he can beat you any number of ways on the floor, he's literally impossible to guard 1 on 1... players like that show their true value in the playoffs... when u think about the double threat he & Amare would pose to every team we face on a nightly basis i can't see how anyone thinks we wouldn't be an improved team because of it... even if you added a halfway capable C that could defend the paint & give you minutes i think we'd be right there with the elite teams in the NBA when u factor in Ray Felton, Landry Fields & the rest of the Knicks' roster that's left over.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
martin
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1/18/2011  2:53 PM
Paladin55 wrote:
martin wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I dont recall Paul Pierce being looked at as a great player before he teamed up with Garnett and Allen.

Amare and Carmelo together will change alot of minds.

which one of our Amare and Melo will play the defensive role that Garnett plays? Thanks kinda the key, right?

You figure that both might tighten things up during the playoffs, but I would not expect an overabundance of effort on D by both of them during the regular season.

and therein is the problem. With Amare, Melo and perhaps no capspace, the Knicks' reliance on the emergence of Timo is high. Could happen, but that's for DW to make a determination on because we really haven't seen him.

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martin
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1/18/2011  2:54 PM
TMS wrote:
Killa4luv wrote:These are points, me, TMS and many many others have been making all along. I have said this 2 million times:
Melo is a complete offensive player, there is literally nothing on the court that he cannot do.

I just finished having the Melo - Durant discussion with my best friend. Durant is a jump shooter who can also drive to the basket. He is 6-9 with super long arms and no post game. This could and should change, but if it does not, he will be Dirk Nowitski part II. NOt bad at all, but underachieving imo.

Melo is a special talent and his acquisition brings us closer to contention. Add Marc Gasol and I think we're there. We'll probably have to change the coach though.

Killa, i've tried to address the Melo - Durant comparisons numerous times on this forum but it seems like people just think Durant is in a different league... i could never understand it... each guy does things better than the other in different aspects of their game, but as a whole i think Melo has the more well rounded offensive skillset & as a whole is easily on the same level as a basketball player... he can beat you any number of ways on the floor, he's literally impossible to guard 1 on 1... players like that show their true value in the playoffs... when u think about the double threat he & Amare would pose to every team we face on a nightly basis i can't see how anyone thinks we wouldn't be an improved team because of it... even if you added a halfway capable C that could defend the paint & give you minutes i think we'd be right there with the elite teams in the NBA when u factor in Ray Felton, Landry Fields & the rest of the Knicks' roster that's left over.

I think the one thing to keep in mind with the Melo - Durant comparisons is that some are projecting with Durant. The dude is 5 years younger than Melo. And for direct comparisons, he is a LOT cheaper right now.

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AnubisADL
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1/18/2011  2:56 PM
martin wrote:
Paladin55 wrote:
martin wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I dont recall Paul Pierce being looked at as a great player before he teamed up with Garnett and Allen.

Amare and Carmelo together will change alot of minds.

which one of our Amare and Melo will play the defensive role that Garnett plays? Thanks kinda the key, right?

You figure that both might tighten things up during the playoffs, but I would not expect an overabundance of effort on D by both of them during the regular season.

and therein is the problem. With Amare, Melo and perhaps no capspace, the Knicks' reliance on the emergence of Timo is high. Could happen, but that's for DW to make a determination on because we really haven't seen him.

If you have Amare and Melo they are baring the offensive load night in night out. Timo has less to focus on playing with 2 superstars and he is guaranteed no more than single coverage.

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martin
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1/18/2011  2:57 PM
Killa4luv wrote:
martin wrote:
Killa4luv wrote:These are points, me, TMS and many many others have been making all along. I have said this 2 million times:
Melo is a complete offensive player, there is literally nothing on the court that he cannot do.

I just finished having the Melo - Durant discussion with my best friend. Durant is a jump shooter who can also drive to the basket. He is 6-9 with super long arms and no post game. This could and should change, but if it does not, he will be Dirk Nowitski part II. NOt bad at all, but underachieving imo.

Melo is a special talent and his acquisition brings us closer to contention. Add Marc Gasol and I think we're there. We'll probably have to change the coach though.

Melo can't shoot 3's.

Also, by adding Melo, you kinda negate adding anything else significant, right?

Melo can shoot 3's. he shot 37% last year, a career high. Thats pretty good. He's not a specialist, but he can shot them. If thats the case ten Kobe can't shoot 3's.

Kobe does shoot a high volume of them and is only marginally better. Wade is another guy who is god-awful at 3s.

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martin
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1/18/2011  2:58 PM
Papabear wrote:
martin wrote:
Killa4luv wrote:These are points, me, TMS and many many others have been making all along. I have said this 2 million times:
Melo is a complete offensive player, there is literally nothing on the court that he cannot do.

I just finished having the Melo - Durant discussion with my best friend. Durant is a jump shooter who can also drive to the basket. He is 6-9 with super long arms and no post game. This could and should change, but if it does not, he will be Dirk Nowitski part II. NOt bad at all, but underachieving imo.

Melo is a special talent and his acquisition brings us closer to contention. Add Marc Gasol and I think we're there. We'll probably have to change the coach though.

Melo can't shoot 3's.

Also, by adding Melo, you kinda negate adding anything else significant, right?

Papabear Says

Martin do you or do you not want Carmelo?

hell yes I do. For one of Gallo/Chandler and some draft picks. That's my line right now; no Fields.

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Probably the most balanced take on Melo I've read so far

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