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Why it may not even matter at all even if we get Melo
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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8/31/2010  3:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/31/2010  4:05 PM
Posted this on another thread but thought it was worth bringing up

Ok..so we trade Randolph or Gallo or both in some package for Melo

PG:
SG:
SF: Melo $15-$20M
PF: Amare $20 M
C:

$35-$40 Million on 2 starters. Who knows what the new CBA will bring and how much the new cap will be.
I would guess lower..

How much does that leave to fill out the rest of the roster?

Is that roster just doomed to losing in the ECF to Miami for the next 5 seasons or...

Does the remaining money the Knicks have (which Miami is paying to Bosh) allow us to fill out the roster in a more balanced way than 3 guys making $16 M + filler?

This kind of all goes back to the horrible mismanagement of the past decade.

Normally when teams suck as much as we do you come out of it with a

Derrick Rose
John Wall
Stephen Curry
Tyreke Evans
Brandon Jennings
Russel Westbrook
Brook Lopez
Kevin Durant


This discussion should really be about how Melo + Amare + one of those guys can challenge for a championship over the next 5 seasons.

Instead we somehow came out of a decade of being the laughingstock of the league without a single young superstar potential player on the roster.

Which means

a) we have to keep Gallo or Randolph in a Melo trade

b) whoever we keep has to be as good as Lamar Odom/Ray Allen/Manu (3rd best player on a championship squad) or it looks like, realistically, we'll just be the Patrick Ewing to someone else's Michael Jordan.

c) we have to sign Melo as a FA and still pray that someone emerges as a viable 3rd best player type.

d) sneak in a championship when the Lakers are over the hill and one of the big douches in Miami gets injured. My $ is on Wade.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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8/31/2010  6:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/31/2010  6:18 PM
is the lack of responses a silent indictment that I am making absolutely 0 sense or is this something that is apparent to everyone?

or is this picture just depressing?

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
Vmart
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8/31/2010  7:54 PM
I don't agree with this assessment. We lose Gallo and AR why can't Chandler be the thrid guy on the team or Felton why not Mozgov who knows what he will be will be.

You give me a lineup of:
Felton pg
Melo sg/sf
Mozgov C
Chandler sf/sg
Amare pf

Bench still has Fields, Douglas, Azu, Turiaf, Rautins, Ewing Jr., Walker.

The Knicks still have people that have good potential and can get better.

The Knicks can do damage. If Chandler elevates his game he can be the third option and Knicks have his bird rights and can exceed cap to keep him around. I want to keep AR/Gallo around but if its for a proven star power player that elevates others game and guarantees playoffs you don't hesitate to make the move for Melo.
EwingsGlass
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8/31/2010  9:04 PM
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:is the lack of responses a silent indictment that I am making absolutely 0 sense or is this something that is apparent to everyone?

or is this picture just depressing?

It is a little hard to follow, but the fact that you leave a guy like Blake Griffin or Greg Oden off the list makes me challenge your swipe at the Knicks in your first paragraph... being bad doesn't necessarily result in a young stud player. Being the worst tends to result in the young stud, after that it tends to be a crap shoot. Even the #2 draft pick we lost, the Bulls drafted Aldridge and traded him for Ty Thomas...

My only point here is that having draft picks can work out well (the Blazers and Hawks have a lot of depth)== but it can also be an exercse in futility. Meanwhile, rebuilding through free agency/trades doesn't always work, but it can work if the stars align (Celtics, Heat)... then there are the teams that do both... I think the Knicks are positioned to do that over the next 5 years... they may not get high draft picks (or any draft picks), but they have historically performed pretty well with the picks they've had.

As such, I think it doesn't make much sense to drop Gallo, Randolph and Chandler on Melo in a trade. If we can get him next year for free, you can think about whether to use Gallo and Randolph on a third "star" or let them rise into their own skill set.

All in all, I think the last two years were executed relatively well with the real (?) being the Jeffries trade... but I was on board then so I will admit my fault in retrospect, but I still think it was a decent move at the time.

You know I gonna spin wit it
Moonangie
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8/31/2010  10:06 PM
EwingsGlass wrote:
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:is the lack of responses a silent indictment that I am making absolutely 0 sense or is this something that is apparent to everyone?

or is this picture just depressing?

It is a little hard to follow, but the fact that you leave a guy like Blake Griffin or Greg Oden off the list makes me challenge your swipe at the Knicks in your first paragraph... being bad doesn't necessarily result in a young stud player. Being the worst tends to result in the young stud, after that it tends to be a crap shoot. Even the #2 draft pick we lost, the Bulls drafted Aldridge and traded him for Ty Thomas...

My only point here is that having draft picks can work out well (the Blazers and Hawks have a lot of depth)== but it can also be an exercse in futility. Meanwhile, rebuilding through free agency/trades doesn't always work, but it can work if the stars align (Celtics, Heat)... then there are the teams that do both... I think the Knicks are positioned to do that over the next 5 years... they may not get high draft picks (or any draft picks), but they have historically performed pretty well with the picks they've had.

As such, I think it doesn't make much sense to drop Gallo, Randolph and Chandler on Melo in a trade. If we can get him next year for free, you can think about whether to use Gallo and Randolph on a third "star" or let them rise into their own skill set.

All in all, I think the last two years were executed relatively well with the real (?) being the Jeffries trade... but I was on board then so I will admit my fault in retrospect, but I still think it was a decent move at the time.

Very well said. That pretty much sums up what I think as well. But apparently I am not as much of a ? about the Fishlips trade as you.

To me, Lebron is far superior to Melo in so many ways and we just had to go for it if it's a reasonable thought that we might get him. Two max contracts was a must-do scenario in the effort to land Lebron. Too bad he is such a wishy-washy guy. If we knew he was going to snub us, we don't do that trade, giving us Hill and our picks to work with now. I also admit my mistake about Lebron. He's not the legacy guy I figured him for.

Melo is probably well-suited to the MDA style of play, and I bet in the right situation he could/would raise his defensive and rebounding games to another level. I really think he wants to win a chip, and I also really think he wants to be the legacy guy in New York. Smart dude if he jumps in next year as a FA. That would be his best shot at getting where he wants to go IF he has Gallo and AR and Felton and the other guys to go to battle with.

I didn't mention Chandler directly because it's not feasible that we will re-up him to be Melo's backup. He'll be traded for picks or a position of need.
TMS
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9/1/2010  12:19 AM
the hardest part is getting the 2 bigname stars... u worry about the rest after... if Gallo is not dealt in the Melo trade, then the Knicks would own his Bird Rights to sign him to an extension... same goes for AR, we own his Bird Rights too... depending on what the new CBA outlines in terms of players' Bird Rights that is... either way, you're looking at having to clear cap space to resign those guys anyway even if you don't make the trade for Melo, so what's the difference? u can't build a house on a shaky foundation... Amare & Melo as your foundation is about as stable as we can realistically expect to attain at this point, we are obviously not getting names like Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Dwight Howard or Kevin Durant here.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
EwingsGlass
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9/1/2010  7:40 AM
TMS wrote:the hardest part is getting the 2 bigname stars... u worry about the rest after... if Gallo is not dealt in the Melo trade, then the Knicks would own his Bird Rights to sign him to an extension... same goes for AR, we own his Bird Rights too... depending on what the new CBA outlines in terms of players' Bird Rights that is... either way, you're looking at having to clear cap space to resign those guys anyway even if you don't make the trade for Melo, so what's the difference? u can't build a house on a shaky foundation... Amare & Melo as your foundation is about as stable as we can realistically expect to attain at this point, we are obviously not getting names like Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Dwight Howard or Kevin Durant here.

Two is not enough in this league. Two stars makes you the Utah Jazz (Stockton/Malone era at best, Williams/Boozer era at worst. Two all stars is a first round exit. This isn't a fantasy league where we re-draft next year. You need to plan for the future. Chandler really needs to be traded because his cap hold next season will come at a premium. Gallo and Randolph need another year to develop as players. Amare has a short timeline where he will be effective, but if the stars don't align with him, you can trade him for more assets. Don't go all in on the first hand, try and build something. If the perfect lne events comes along that you can acquire three bona fide stars, every asset is available-- then I go all in. You can get Chris Paul and Melo --- I don't give a crap about anyone's feelings-- get it done. But, short of that, might as well nurture the youths to see what you have a year or two from now...

You know I gonna spin wit it
fishmike
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9/1/2010  7:59 AM
Vmart wrote:I don't agree with this assessment. We lose Gallo and AR why can't Chandler be the thrid guy on the team or Felton why not Mozgov who knows what he will be will be.

You give me a lineup of:
Felton pg
Melo sg/sf
Mozgov C
Chandler sf/sg
Amare pf

Bench still has Fields, Douglas, Azu, Turiaf, Rautins, Ewing Jr., Walker.

The Knicks still have people that have good potential and can get better.

The Knicks can do damage. If Chandler elevates his game he can be the third option and Knicks have his bird rights and can exceed cap to keep him around. I want to keep AR/Gallo around but if its for a proven star power player that elevates others game and guarantees playoffs you don't hesitate to make the move for Melo.

what other player(s) have Melo elevated the game of? The guy is a black hole. There is no shot he didnt like (notice the FG%).

He makes the all star game about 50% and since being in the league he's advanced in the playoffs one year.

Thanks... I will pass. You trade Gallo/AR and its back to the days of hoping guys like Channing Frye become Kevin Garnett

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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9/1/2010  8:02 AM
EwingsGlass wrote:
TMS wrote:the hardest part is getting the 2 bigname stars... u worry about the rest after... if Gallo is not dealt in the Melo trade, then the Knicks would own his Bird Rights to sign him to an extension... same goes for AR, we own his Bird Rights too... depending on what the new CBA outlines in terms of players' Bird Rights that is... either way, you're looking at having to clear cap space to resign those guys anyway even if you don't make the trade for Melo, so what's the difference? u can't build a house on a shaky foundation... Amare & Melo as your foundation is about as stable as we can realistically expect to attain at this point, we are obviously not getting names like Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Dwight Howard or Kevin Durant here.

Two is not enough in this league. Two stars makes you the Utah Jazz (Stockton/Malone era at best, Williams/Boozer era at worst. Two all stars is a first round exit. This isn't a fantasy league where we re-draft next year. You need to plan for the future. Chandler really needs to be traded because his cap hold next season will come at a premium. Gallo and Randolph need another year to develop as players. Amare has a short timeline where he will be effective, but if the stars don't align with him, you can trade him for more assets. Don't go all in on the first hand, try and build something. If the perfect lne events comes along that you can acquire three bona fide stars, every asset is available-- then I go all in. You can get Chris Paul and Melo --- I don't give a crap about anyone's feelings-- get it done. But, short of that, might as well nurture the youths to see what you have a year or two from now...

yea.. and Melo isnt as good as either of those guys.

Guys here make Melo out to be Kobe or Lebron or Wade. He isnt. He's Al Harrington on roids. No defense, average rebounder, low shooting %

The guy can score flat out, but he is not what we need.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Allanfan20
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9/1/2010  8:54 AM
fishmike wrote:
EwingsGlass wrote:
TMS wrote:the hardest part is getting the 2 bigname stars... u worry about the rest after... if Gallo is not dealt in the Melo trade, then the Knicks would own his Bird Rights to sign him to an extension... same goes for AR, we own his Bird Rights too... depending on what the new CBA outlines in terms of players' Bird Rights that is... either way, you're looking at having to clear cap space to resign those guys anyway even if you don't make the trade for Melo, so what's the difference? u can't build a house on a shaky foundation... Amare & Melo as your foundation is about as stable as we can realistically expect to attain at this point, we are obviously not getting names like Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Dwight Howard or Kevin Durant here.

Two is not enough in this league. Two stars makes you the Utah Jazz (Stockton/Malone era at best, Williams/Boozer era at worst. Two all stars is a first round exit. This isn't a fantasy league where we re-draft next year. You need to plan for the future. Chandler really needs to be traded because his cap hold next season will come at a premium. Gallo and Randolph need another year to develop as players. Amare has a short timeline where he will be effective, but if the stars don't align with him, you can trade him for more assets. Don't go all in on the first hand, try and build something. If the perfect lne events comes along that you can acquire three bona fide stars, every asset is available-- then I go all in. You can get Chris Paul and Melo --- I don't give a crap about anyone's feelings-- get it done. But, short of that, might as well nurture the youths to see what you have a year or two from now...

yea.. and Melo isnt as good as either of those guys.

Guys here make Melo out to be Kobe or Lebron or Wade. He isnt. He's Al Harrington on roids. No defense, average rebounder, low shooting %

The guy can score flat out, but he is not what we need.

Agreed. To me he's no superstar. An big name all star is what he is, but he's not nescessarily somebody you build this team around. Plus, as currently constructed, and with our coach, we are a team that relies on ball movement and spacing and player movement. Think of it. You use Felton to set guys up. You used Amare to run the pick and roll and move off the ball. That is his game. Not one on one. So already, that's two players that we have that do NOT mesh with Carmello, and those are your primary ball handlers. And then you have the complimentary players working off of them, who mesh absolutely perfectly with those two.

'Melo doesn't make sense for this team, and we're talking like he's a top flight superstar who you give anything up for whenever the moment presents itself. No you don't. He's not that great. He's not a great defender, and he doesn't mesh himself in the team game and his teams haven't been successful in the playoffs. In fact, they have been embarrassed on occasion.

Chris Paul makes a lot more sense, and I wouldn't have traded our assets for him either, but that's just because of his injury.

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
GodSaveTheKnicks
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9/1/2010  10:17 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/1/2010  10:20 AM
I dunno. I've flip flopped on this a few times.

Melo does appear to care about defense when he's in an important game against Kobe or Lebron.

I want to believe that his gunner mentality has to do with the systems he's played in. The Melo/AI squads were gunners and Chauncey Billups started out as a scorer in Minny, etc and doesn't exactly have great shot selection. I think Larry Brown convinced him to be a little more selective just because Brown is such an extreme "play the right way" coach.

Best case scenario in a trade:

- Of Gallo and AR..whoever we keep ends up being on the level of an Odom/Ray Allen/Manu/3rd banana on an elite team.

- Melo improves his game from a MENTAL perspective in terms of not stopping the ball on offense and understanding that even though he's more than capable, he doesn't have to score the hard way if he has help.

- Melo takes the energy saved from playing one on 5 and puts that into the defensive end of the court, leading by example. If your star players take defense seriously (KG, Duncan) they can freely call out everyone else on the team that doesn't give an effort or regularly is on the wrong spot on the floor on D.

Worst case scenario in a trade

- Whoever we trade becomes a star or a very useful player somewhere else a la Nene/Camby/Ariza

- Melo and Amare just are never good enough to be the core of a championship squad and we lose in various rounds of the playoffs every year


I guess to win a championship either takes a once in a blue moon player: Jordan, Duncan, Hakeem,Shaq etc.

or a ridiculous stroke of luck like Pau Gasol landing in your lap, one of the most skilled centers in the league and a good passer to pair with Kobe.

Either way luck just seems to play a giant part in it. There have been plenty of soundly built squads that fell short for various reasons: Nash's various suns squads. Those Kings and Blazers teams that battled the Lakers for so many seasons. The Knicks teams that gave Jordan's bulls all they could handle.

A buddy of mine who is also die hard said that after all this losing he just wants to be relevant again and he would take Melo, even if it doesn't lead to winning a championship. Sometimes you gotta just go for it and if you don't
trade for or sign Melo..what the hell are you waiting for? There's no guarantee that anyone better will be available.
Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Durant, Rose. All the brightest young stars could be lifers with their teams or at least stay with them till Amare's deal is done.

I think we're all scarred from the Layden/Thomas era and scared of another lost decade. "Woohoo we got Marbury!"
has been replaced by...'Wait a minute..is this the right move..****...what if it's just a Rashard Lewis type signing?"

I personally am praying that

- Melo really does want to sign an extension with the the Knicks and the Knicks only
- Gallo, AR, Chandler ALL blow up and we have the problem of too much talent and who to keep around vs trading

Long Live The Knicks. May James Dolan be replace by a Dolan with a checkbook just as fat but an IQ twice as high. Amen.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
tj23
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9/1/2010  7:54 PM
Didnt Melo shoot the same fg% kobe did last year? lol
martin
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9/1/2010  8:29 PM
tj23 wrote:Didnt Melo shoot the same fg% kobe did last year? lol

why should that matter?

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Bonn1997
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9/1/2010  9:12 PM
tj23 wrote:Didnt Melo shoot the same fg% kobe did last year? lol

Yeah but so did Channing Frye!
tj23
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9/1/2010  9:18 PM
martin wrote:
tj23 wrote:Didnt Melo shoot the same fg% kobe did last year? lol

why should that matter?


How is 45% not effecient enough if thats what one of the few superstars in the league is shooting?
Vmart
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9/1/2010  9:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/1/2010  9:23 PM
fishmike wrote:
Vmart wrote:I don't agree with this assessment. We lose Gallo and AR why can't Chandler be the thrid guy on the team or Felton why not Mozgov who knows what he will be will be.

You give me a lineup of:
Felton pg
Melo sg/sf
Mozgov C
Chandler sf/sg
Amare pf

Bench still has Fields, Douglas, Azu, Turiaf, Rautins, Ewing Jr., Walker.

The Knicks still have people that have good potential and can get better.

The Knicks can do damage. If Chandler elevates his game he can be the third option and Knicks have his bird rights and can exceed cap to keep him around. I want to keep AR/Gallo around but if its for a proven star power player that elevates others game and guarantees playoffs you don't hesitate to make the move for Melo.

what other player(s) have Melo elevated the game of? The guy is a black hole. There is no shot he didnt like (notice the FG%).

He makes the all star game about 50% and since being in the league he's advanced in the playoffs one year.

Thanks... I will pass. You trade Gallo/AR and its back to the days of hoping guys like Channing Frye become Kevin Garnett

Black hole? its pretty obvious by now that your heart is doing the writing for you not the brain. Like I said before don't minimize Melo's accomplishment just to elevate your point of view to keep Gallo and AR. Melo consistently as the so called Black Hole produced 50+ wins went to the WCF went toe to toe with Kobe in a tough fought series. Denver asked him to shoot and he did and he produced wins. He was asked to fill the role of shooter for that team and he did what the team asked of him. The thought of a player that can score consistently requires doubles and Melo often required doubles and teams geared themselves to stop him. Why because he is a force. Melo draws attention from the other players and that allows the other to play at a higher level. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to comprehend. Just team him up with Amare and watch both of them feed off each other and produce at the highest possible level.

You get your superstars in and then build around them. Its a simple formula. You can find your role players later and you have your star players in place.
martin
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9/1/2010  9:22 PM
tj23 wrote:
martin wrote:
tj23 wrote:Didnt Melo shoot the same fg% kobe did last year? lol

why should that matter?


How is 45% not effecient enough if thats what one of the few superstars in the league is shooting?

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should go after Melo based on his shooting % of last year. That's why I ask if that really matters.

Does he play defense? Does he make other around him better? What's his contract gonna be like?

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loweyecue
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9/1/2010  9:24 PM
Too many people seem to be too down on Melo and too high on Gallo/AR. I am high on Gallo too but Melo can hang with Lebron/Kobe and has shown as much. How can you guys just write that off? Amare/Melo as a core is not the best possible but its the best we can get now (several years to come). There aren't any other big name FAs on the horizon. Melo isn't over the hill and has been the primary option on his team for too long. He may do better in a more balanced offense. If we get these two guys then add a superstar PG down the road, Parker/Paul/Rubio who is to say we can't be really really good?

Trading for Melo is the high percentage move. I love Gallo but Melo can help us more right now. No use falling in love with someone's "potential" and pass on a sure thing.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
tj23
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9/1/2010  9:31 PM
martin wrote:
tj23 wrote:
martin wrote:
tj23 wrote:Didnt Melo shoot the same fg% kobe did last year? lol

why should that matter?


How is 45% not effecient enough if thats what one of the few superstars in the league is shooting?

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should go after Melo based on his shooting % of last year. That's why I ask if that really matters.

Does he play defense? Does he make other around him better? What's his contract gonna be like?


I take all of that into consideration but I think really, even if we have to overpay, will we find another guy of his caliber? When people say no to trading Gallo I can only laugh because Melo is miles ahead of him. Gallo can play good d at times but he is not a reliable defender at all. And he shoots what, 42%? I would settle for losing in the ecf every year. That's just me. Not that I wanna lose but it would be really hard to do better than Melo and beat the heat anyway, especially with the way we hand out draft picks to other teams lol.
tj23
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9/1/2010  9:33 PM
loweyecue wrote:Too many people seem to be too down on Melo and too high on Gallo/AR. I am high on Gallo too but Melo can hang with Lebron/Kobe and has shown as much. How can you guys just write that off? Amare/Melo as a core is not the best possible but its the best we can get now (several years to come). There aren't any other big name FAs on the horizon. Melo isn't over the hill and has been the primary option on his team for too long. He may do better in a more balanced offense. If we get these two guys then add a superstar PG down the road, Parker/Paul/Rubio who is to say we can't be really really good?

Trading for Melo is the high percentage move. I love Gallo but Melo can help us more right now. No use falling in love with someone's "potential" and pass on a sure thing.


Unless the contract would eat up ALL of our cap room I think you have to make the move. Unless LeBron demands a trade after this year there wont be many big time players out there for a while.
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