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This is what I'm talking about...re: Melo
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grillco
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8/17/2010  8:59 AM
This new situation with Anthony is why I was so sour on the Lee sign and trade. If they had let him walk and been patient they could have traded straight up cash (trade exemption) and a player of the Nuggets liking for Melo. As it stands now, it would all have to be players and the Knicks won't make the Nuggets the best offer of players/assets. Not because they don't want to, but because they don't have equal talent at the same salary that they either can trade right now. Most of the deals can't be traded until December or can't be packaged together. Even in that scenario the guys the Knicks got for Lee DO NOT equal Anthony.

Unless Melo ends up with the Knicks, this will go from being a decent starting point to a rebuild to a failure. Of course I may not feel that way if they were to land Paul in a couple of years, but he and Amare don't quite strike me as a championship team (barring the rest of the pieces falling perfectly into place, i.e.: Danilo turning into Dirk...). I'm also a little leery of CP until he shows he's back to form or as good as he ever was/is (injury rehab and what not).

And, of course, Dolan is still a dunce, so he has the potential to screw up anything and everything.

AUTOADVERT
fishmike
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8/17/2010  9:05 AM
so let me get this right... any trade for Lee that doesnt yield a player as good as Carmello is a failure? Makes zero sense. If Azubukkake is healthy along w/ Randolph thats a great trade.

Sorry.. we can wait for Melo and sign him outright. Fail to see your logic here

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
GustavBahler
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8/17/2010  9:14 AM
Yup fishmike, If anything the players they got over the summer should make New York even more appealing to Anthony. D'Antoni has time to get them (except Amare) familiar with the system. If Anthony is signed outright, he will be walking into a better situation than he would have with a depleted NY roster.
grillco
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8/17/2010  11:15 AM
fishmike wrote:so let me get this right... any trade for Lee that doesnt yield a player as good as Carmello is a failure? Makes zero sense. If Azubukkake is healthy along w/ Randolph thats a great trade.

Sorry.. we can wait for Melo and sign him outright. Fail to see your logic here

Okay, I always hate when my inferred logic doesn't translate, so let me
splain...there's too much, let me sum up.

If the Knicks don't have the pieces and Melo still intends to leave Denver which is what everyone is currently speculating he may sign his extension and end up elsewhere. The Knicks may lose out on him altogether. Denver doesn't have to trade him and they certainly don't have to trade him to NY if they don't like the deal. Maybe he ends up in Jersey or Detroit (not that they have any appealing to offer in exchange for a top 10 player either). My point with Lee is that a sign and trade wasn't necessary. Let him walk and you still have the cash to either sign similar potentially good to great talent (like they received in exchange for Lee) or HOLD ON TO MOST OF IT (you have to meet the minimum # of players) and see how the summer and the season, up to the trading deadline, pan out and have great flexibility to make a high-impact trade.

Again as it currently stands Lee was traded for potential and the cap space was lost. Right now the Knicks don't have a lot of flexibility. Lee landing Melo wasn't what I stated or really even implied, it was more the use of the painfully earned cap space. I think the Knicks panicked after LeDouche went to Miami (I believe as per a plan that was made at least two years ago) and went about acquiring more "talent" for this season, looking to having options for the end of the coming season and following. Unfortunately Anthony might be available NOW and the Knicks might not have the pieces to land him. And fans can't really hang too much on landing Paul either or as well.

I do think missing out on Wade, James, Anthony, AND Paul would be a failure in their seemingly four-year plan. And that has little to do with Lee outside of having lost cap space via sign and trade. Lee = a group of young talent that may or may not have value in the future, while the cap space could have equaled Paul or Anthony THIS SUMMER. Even if the new guys were of interest to the Nuggets in trade, several can't be packaged and others can't be traded until December. Acquiring Melo would mean losing some of the players that are supposed either appeal to him or be an important part of the future, Gallo being the prime example. Melo leaving at the end of season and signing with the Knicks would be best for him and the team, but he has to wait and be willing to take less money, which he would more than make up in endorsements...especially if he helped raise a championship banner.

It wasn't about Lee or what his sign and trade brought/bought, it's about seemingly rushing to use assets when the player acquisition market was far from closed. So if they can't get Melo and/or Paul OR some other player or players of equal caliber it would be far from a success.

GodSaveTheKnicks
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8/17/2010  11:27 AM
I would much rather sign Melo as a FA than trade for him.

I think Haberstroh really made some legit points about him:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?id=5439653

Carmelo Anthony has averaged 20 points per game every season since he arrived in the NBA. This past campaign, he became the third-youngest player ever to reach the 10,000-point plateau, behind only Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. And next summer, he could hit the open market as an unrestricted free agent.

But despite all those gaudy point totals, the three-time All-Star may not even be worth the max deal a team would likely give him in 2011.


At first glance, Anthony seems like a member of the NBA's elite, largely due to his scoring prowess. But a deeper look at the points column and elsewhere in his game reveals a player who lives on an undeserved reputation more than his actual impact on wins.

It's tough to argue with his 28.2 points-per-game average in '09-10, but in the game of basketball, how a shooter gets his points is more meaningful than the raw number itself. To see that, we need to peel back the layers.

Let's first talk about Anthony's shot volume. It's not exactly a secret that 'Melo likes to shoot the rock, but his propensity to launch shots may raise some eyebrows. This past season, no player in the NBA took more shots per minute than Anthony -- not Kobe, not LeBron, not even scoring champ Kevin Durant.

It may seem obvious that a player worthy of 20 shots per game would have a healthy conversion rate. But in Anthony's case, that's far from the truth. Anthony, in reality, had a below-average field goal percentage (.458) this past season -- and his career percentage (.459) is no different. (The league average is .463.)

The sharp readers out there will point out that traditional field goal percentage doesn't reflect Anthony's shooting ability, since he launches a healthy dose of 3-pointers, which obviously count more on the scoreboard. That's true. But if you've been paying attention, you know Anthony is not a good shooter from beyond the arc, so that doesn't help his case. As a career .308 percent 3-point shooter, his shot from downtown ranks far below the norm (the average small forward shot .349 last season; Melo shot .316) and any progress he seemingly made in 2008-09, when he shot a career-high .371, disappeared. Even if we incorporate the added point bonus of a 3-pointer, the Syracuse product's shooting percentages are, at best, average.

It seems that, anyway we slice it, Anthony is a gunner at the core. His exceptional skill on offense is his ability to get his shot off, whether it's attacking the rim or through a patented pull-up jumper on the perimeter. But interestingly enough, Anthony got his shot blocked a whopping 109 times last season, which ranks as the second-highest total in the league, according to Hoopdata.com. Evidently, he doesn't lack perseverance.

Anthony's case illustrates a fundamental problem in conventional basketball analysis: scoring averages don't reflect efficiency. It's true that Anthony scored 28.2 points per game last season, but it's also true that no player missed more shots as often as Anthony did. Feel free to credit his skill but also pay attention his lofty shot volume and playing time.

And that's before we consider the disguise of team pace. Since Anthony entered the league, the Denver Nuggets have averaged 95.9 possessions per game, which places them as the third -fastest squad in the NBA over that period of time (and just a fraction behind the high-octane Phoenix Suns). Over that same span, the Nuggets have squeezed out an extra four possessions per game when compared to the average NBA team. Do the math, and the Nuggets have enjoyed nearly 2,000 extra possessions above the norm since Anthony joined the NBA. That's a ton of extra opportunities that can pad the per-game stats used as measuring sticks.

So after stripping out the inflationary effect of fast pace and boiling down Anthony's numbers to a per possession level, his scoring punch looks even more pedestrian. How pedestrian? Anthony's career offensive rating, an efficiency measure that calculates how many points a player produces per 100 possessions he uses, checks out at 107, which sits right at the league average. For reference, 2003 draft-mates James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh have earned 114, 111, and 113 lifetime offensive ratings, respectively.

Before we prematurely call Anthony an average player, there is something to be said for the burden of trust. Not every player can still perform while shouldering the heavy scoring responsibility that Anthony has endured. But the Nuggets have probably allowed Anthony to shoot far too often if efficiency -- and winning -- is their goal. In fact, last season Melo was only sixth on his own team in ORtg (110), trailing far behind other legit weapons like Nene (124), Chauncey Billups (120) and Ty Lawson (118).

Aside from scoring, Anthony doesn't have many other bankable weapons as a player. His rebounding (career 6.2 rpg) is only slightly better than what we'd expect from a small forward, and he doesn't create opportunities for his teammates like Paul Pierce, Wade and James can. Furthermore, he hasn't shown the intensity and dedication on the defensive end that you'd want from a max player.

In the end, Anthony's game demonstrates why it's important to strip away the biases that color our perceptions of elite players. In Anthony's case, the excessive shot volume, his team's stat-padding tempo and the lack of a true 3-point game makes his 28.2 ppg seem far less impressive than his sparkling reputation would suggest.

If anything, it's time we moved on from per-game statistics to evaluate our players. Millions of dollars are wasted every year basing player value on the archaic statistics that teams used half a century ago. And someone will surely overpay Anthony and offer him a max contract -- just look at the deals Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay got.

If the New York Knicks, rumored to be the favorites to land Melo if he decides to leave Denver, are expecting salvation from Anthony next summer, they're going to be very disappointed with their investment. It would be a much a wiser move to throw that cash toward the pursuit of Chris Paul, a real max player.

Tom Haberstroh is a frequent contributor to ESPN Insider.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
NYKBocker
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8/17/2010  11:32 AM
grillco wrote:
fishmike wrote:so let me get this right... any trade for Lee that doesnt yield a player as good as Carmello is a failure? Makes zero sense. If Azubukkake is healthy along w/ Randolph thats a great trade.

Sorry.. we can wait for Melo and sign him outright. Fail to see your logic here

Okay, I always hate when my inferred logic doesn't translate, so let me
splain...there's too much, let me sum up.

If the Knicks don't have the pieces and Melo still intends to leave Denver which is what everyone is currently speculating he may sign his extension and end up elsewhere. The Knicks may lose out on him altogether. Denver doesn't have to trade him and they certainly don't have to trade him to NY if they don't like the deal. Maybe he ends up in Jersey or Detroit (not that they have any appealing to offer in exchange for a top 10 player either). My point with Lee is that a sign and trade wasn't necessary. Let him walk and you still have the cash to either sign similar potentially good to great talent (like they received in exchange for Lee) or HOLD ON TO MOST OF IT (you have to meet the minimum # of players) and see how the summer and the season, up to the trading deadline, pan out and have great flexibility to make a high-impact trade.

Again as it currently stands Lee was traded for potential and the cap space was lost. Right now the Knicks don't have a lot of flexibility. Lee landing Melo wasn't what I stated or really even implied, it was more the use of the painfully earned cap space. I think the Knicks panicked after LeDouche went to Miami (I believe as per a plan that was made at least two years ago) and went about acquiring more "talent" for this season, looking to having options for the end of the coming season and following. Unfortunately Anthony might be available NOW and the Knicks might not have the pieces to land him. And fans can't really hang too much on landing Paul either or as well.

I do think missing out on Wade, James, Anthony, AND Paul would be a failure in their seemingly four-year plan. And that has little to do with Lee outside of having lost cap space via sign and trade. Lee = a group of young talent that may or may not have value in the future, while the cap space could have equaled Paul or Anthony THIS SUMMER. Even if the new guys were of interest to the Nuggets in trade, several can't be packaged and others can't be traded until December. Acquiring Melo would mean losing some of the players that are supposed either appeal to him or be an important part of the future, Gallo being the prime example. Melo leaving at the end of season and signing with the Knicks would be best for him and the team, but he has to wait and be willing to take less money, which he would more than make up in endorsements...especially if he helped raise a championship banner.

It wasn't about Lee or what his sign and trade brought/bought, it's about seemingly rushing to use assets when the player acquisition market was far from closed. So if they can't get Melo and/or Paul OR some other player or players of equal caliber it would be far from a success.

I am a little confused here. So you are saying that if we did not sign and trade DLee then with the cap space we can aqcuire Melo by giving them money? I thought you can only give 3Million to another team. How does that work? You mean send Curry's contract and money their way? How is that better than sending Curry's contract plus say AR and another piece (which I would not do). The cap space was only valuable for Free Agents. Melo is not a FA this year. You would need assets to aqcuire him.

I would offer Curry's contract, The Mayor, TD and a 2nd round pick(s). That's it.

Why is this a failure? Everyone thought it was an all or nothing for the Queen and as it turns out, The Godfather has a very good plan B and I am sure he has a plan C,D,E if the others don't work. That is a great management style.

We are in good position to get Melo. We can get him now because we have the best asset out there (expiring and young talent) or we can wait for Melo and sign him for the max this coming summer.

knickstorrents
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8/17/2010  11:43 AM
Melo is not worth trading for... the dude is an Al Harrington on steroids, and he is a black hole on offense. He doesn't rebound that well and he never passes the ball. The dude is totally overrated.

And the DLee trade was totally fine... I'd still prefer the pieces we got over 'Melo, even if it were possible (and it wasn't)

Rose is not the answer.
TMS
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8/17/2010  12:39 PM
we gained assets to use in a trade for Melo in the D Lee trade... i have no idea how you think a trade exception & Wilson Chandler or Gallo would give us a better shot at getting him than what we have now.
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fishmike
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8/17/2010  12:48 PM
knickstorrents wrote:Melo is not worth trading for... the dude is an Al Harrington on steroids, and he is a black hole on offense. He doesn't rebound that well and he never passes the ball. The dude is totally overrated.

And the DLee trade was totally fine... I'd still prefer the pieces we got over 'Melo, even if it were possible (and it wasn't)


he's better than that. He's a top scorer and he gets to the line almost 10x a game. Its all about cost. Felton/Amare arent going anywhere and I am not giving up AR/Gallo. At least not yet.
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TheGame
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8/17/2010  1:01 PM
We are in a much better situation for Melo now. We can put together a package of Gallo or AR, Curry, and $3 mill and maybe some future draft pick for Melo. Without the Lee trade, this would not have been possible.
Trust the Process
nixluva
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8/17/2010  1:25 PM
My big problem with the idea of not doing the Lee trade is that Donnie had 2 priorities 1st was to build a good team and 2nd was to maintain good trade chips and cap flexibility. He did both. The talent we got gave us 3 possible STARTERS! Felton, Amar'e, AZ, Gallo n AR/Turiaf. I'd call that significant. AR could be an All Star type talent someday. In terms of building a team those 3 guys are great value for Lee.

I like Melo but if we wait we could make a deal that is more to our benefit.

grillco
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8/17/2010  2:58 PM
NYKBocker wrote:I am a little confused here. So you are saying that if we did not sign and trade DLee then with the cap space we can aqcuire Melo by giving them money? I thought you can only give 3Million to another team. How does that work? You mean send Curry's contract and money their way? How is that better than sending Curry's contract plus say AR and another piece (which I would not do). The cap space was only valuable for Free Agents. Melo is not a FA this year. You would need assets to aqcuire him.

I would offer Curry's contract, The Mayor, TD and a 2nd round pick(s). That's it.

Why is this a failure? Everyone thought it was an all or nothing for the Queen and as it turns out, The Godfather has a very good plan B and I am sure he has a plan C,D,E if the others don't work. That is a great management style.

We are in good position to get Melo. We can get him now because we have the best asset out there (expiring and young talent) or we can wait for Melo and sign him for the max this coming summer.

As I understood it, but wrong and aren't mutually exclusive, was a trade exemption could be made to the "value" of the contract acquired. Upon further research it seem s that only draft picks can be added though, not other players. But I'm probably misunderstanding things. You used to be able to trade players for money. I though with the current CBA you still could, it just had to conform to the rules of being within 115-125% of the value of the player traded.

grillco
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8/17/2010  2:59 PM
TheGame wrote:We are in a much better situation for Melo now. We can put together a package of Gallo or AR, Curry, and $3 mill and maybe some future draft pick for Melo. Without the Lee trade, this would not have been possible.

Why does this appeal to Denver? I'm just asking.

grillco
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8/17/2010  3:14 PM
TMS wrote:we gained assets to use in a trade for Melo in the D Lee trade... i have no idea how you think a trade exception & Wilson Chandler or Gallo would give us a better shot at getting him than what we have now.

It's really six of one half dozen of the other. Curry's salary isn't anywhere near Melo's now or post a re-up. So other players have to be added. What makes Curry any more appealing than straight up relief? What's more Curry combined with a trade exemption would have been more beneficial to both organizations. The problem for me is the assets. The guys acquired from Denver can't be traded together from my understanding. So it might be one of them WITH Gallo and Curry horrible 2011 cap relief and suddenly the Knicks may be a less appealing team to Anthony. But again, with all things being equal and every team having some chance to go after Melo, I think other teams could have a better shot at landing him. At trade with Orlando for Carter would give them more cap relief in 2011 AND provide them with a real player for the season instead of Curry who's allergic to playing.

Again, wrongness ain't nothing to me.

grillco
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8/17/2010  3:16 PM
TheGame wrote:We are in a much better situation for Melo now. We can put together a package of Gallo or AR, Curry, and $3 mill and maybe some future draft pick for Melo. Without the Lee trade, this would not have been possible.

Everything except AR was on the table before the trade WITH cap space. Now it's only the players/salaries. Also, ESPN says the Knicks only have $1.6 million remaining in cap space, where would they get $3 million? Obviously ESPN can be wrong, but if they aren't...

grillco
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8/17/2010  3:17 PM
knickstorrents wrote:Melo is not worth trading for... the dude is an Al Harrington on steroids, and he is a black hole on offense. He doesn't rebound that well and he never passes the ball. The dude is totally overrated.

And the DLee trade was totally fine... I'd still prefer the pieces we got over 'Melo, even if it were possible (and it wasn't)

That's cool, I'll just disagree on all your points. No biggie.

fishmike
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8/17/2010  4:47 PM
grillco wrote:
TheGame wrote:We are in a much better situation for Melo now. We can put together a package of Gallo or AR, Curry, and $3 mill and maybe some future draft pick for Melo. Without the Lee trade, this would not have been possible.

Everything except AR was on the table before the trade WITH cap space. Now it's only the players/salaries. Also, ESPN says the Knicks only have $1.6 million remaining in cap space, where would they get $3 million? Obviously ESPN can be wrong, but if they aren't...


the $3mm is the max "cash considerations" a team is allowed to include in trades. Unlike baseball where the Yanks made Texas pay like $60mm of ARod's contract the most an NBA team can pay another team in any trade is $3mm
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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8/17/2010  4:50 PM
grillco wrote:
TheGame wrote:We are in a much better situation for Melo now. We can put together a package of Gallo or AR, Curry, and $3 mill and maybe some future draft pick for Melo. Without the Lee trade, this would not have been possible.

Why does this appeal to Denver? I'm just asking.


Cle just went from 60 wins to 20 wins with nothing to show for it. If Melo is serious about leaving and playing for NY and they have cap space then Denver gets a good young player back for Melo in AR/Gallo.

I'm not doing that now though. I think both AR/Gallo have star potential and I think the Knicks will be good enough in the meantime to guage their ceiling this year and let them develop

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Allanfan20
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8/17/2010  5:15 PM
fishmike wrote:
grillco wrote:
TheGame wrote:We are in a much better situation for Melo now. We can put together a package of Gallo or AR, Curry, and $3 mill and maybe some future draft pick for Melo. Without the Lee trade, this would not have been possible.

Why does this appeal to Denver? I'm just asking.


Cle just went from 60 wins to 20 wins with nothing to show for it. If Melo is serious about leaving and playing for NY and they have cap space then Denver gets a good young player back for Melo in AR/Gallo.

I'm not doing that now though. I think both AR/Gallo have star potential and I think the Knicks will be good enough in the meantime to guage their ceiling this year and let them develop

I wouldn't include AR, but as much as I think Gallo can be a star, Melo is still better and will most likely always be. You would have to give up Gallo for Melo. No questions asked.

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Vmart
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8/17/2010  5:50 PM
I wouldn't get to worked up over the Melo thing. It seems that NY is the ploy and Orlando is the destination.
This is what I'm talking about...re: Melo

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