TMS wrote:Patrick Ewing was great friends with Michael Jordan... Isiah was great friends with Magic... when they got on the court they wanted to kill each other... doesn't matter if these guys are friends or not, it matters how they compete on the court.

honestly, I thought guys like ewing and barkley were great friends with jordan, but jordan was just good friends to them. good enough to hang, but not too good to smash their hopes on the ball court..

Of course, I think MJ read that and then went out and dropped a double nickle on the Knicks at the garden.

Magic turned on Isiah after his playing career. Bird and Magic hated each other for the first 5 or 6 years and only later gained a mutual respect. And of course, Isiah and MJ genuinely despised each other.

I think one of the big turn-offs about Lebron that is hard to put into words is that it used to be that athletes appeared to value the competition over friendships - that they were professional warriors paid to give it their best and win. Bron punched some holes in that illusion when he took his talents to South Beach. He showed that it could just be about friendships and that the ideas of legacy and competition don't really matter to some of this younger generation.

I'm not even sure I'm putting it in to words well, but I think Lebron tore back the curtain for some people a little with his maneuver and that's part of what people feel so angry and betrayed - even if they weren't Cavs (or Knicks) fans.

I guess all that is to say - it's fine with me if the players are buddies. But that should never interfere with the competition. That should be holy or something. And this Lebron stuff is making it obvious that it's not really true for all these younger dudes.

For some reason this week I've been watching tape of the Kings v Lakers 2002 WCF. Those teams HATED each other. Those were some of the most epic games ever. (And, MAN, did the Kings get SCREWED by the refs in EVERY game.) ...I just think the NBA is at its best when the teams genuinely dislike each other and want to beat them. Bird v Magic, Knicks v Bulls, Knicks v Pacers, Knicks v Heat, Kings v Lakers, Bulls v Pistons, Lakers v Pistons, etc...

ramtour420 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:JVG had the quote one time about how Michael used to befriend a lot of stars and then use that friendship to his advantage on the court - like he wasn't really their friend. (I've always thought JVG was directing that at Oak and possibly Pat.)

Of course, I think MJ read that and then went out and dropped a double nickle on the Knicks at the garden.

Magic turned on Isiah after his playing career. Bird and Magic hated each other for the first 5 or 6 years and only later gained a mutual respect. And of course, Isiah and MJ genuinely despised each other.

I think one of the big turn-offs about Lebron that is hard to put into words is that it used to be that athletes appeared to value the competition over friendships - that they were professional warriors paid to give it their best and win. Bron punched some holes in that illusion when he took his talents to South Beach. He showed that it could just be about friendships and that the ideas of legacy and competition don't really matter to some of this younger generation.

I'm not even sure I'm putting it in to words well, but I think Lebron tore back the curtain for some people a little with his maneuver and that's part of what people feel so angry and betrayed - even if they weren't Cavs (or Knicks) fans.

I guess all that is to say - it's fine with me if the players are buddies. But that should never interfere with the competition. That should be holy or something. And this Lebron stuff is making it obvious that it's not really true for all these younger dudes.

For some reason this week I've been watching tape of the Kings v Lakers 2002 WCF. Those teams HATED each other. Those were some of the most epic games ever. (And, MAN, did the Kings get SCREWED by the refs in EVERY game.) ...I just think the NBA is at its best when the teams genuinely dislike each other and want to beat them. Bird v Magic, Knicks v Bulls, Knicks v Pacers, Knicks v Heat, Kings v Lakers, Bulls v Pistons, Lakers v Pistons, etc...

Maybe they do want to win? Thats why they got all joined at the hip, isn't it? Celtics started it, now Miami. Seems like a pattern that could continue. I wonder which team will do that next ?

Some team with a lame fanbase that doesn't really deserve it.

I'd say the Bobcats or Grizzlies.

crzymdups wrote:JVG had the quote one time about how Michael used to befriend a lot of stars and then use that friendship to his advantage on the court - like he wasn't really their friend. (I've always thought JVG was directing that at Oak and possibly Pat.)

Of course, I think MJ read that and then went out and dropped a double nickle on the Knicks at the garden.

Magic turned on Isiah after his playing career. Bird and Magic hated each other for the first 5 or 6 years and only later gained a mutual respect. And of course, Isiah and MJ genuinely despised each other.

I think one of the big turn-offs about Lebron that is hard to put into words is that it used to be that athletes appeared to value the competition over friendships - that they were professional warriors paid to give it their best and win. Bron punched some holes in that illusion when he took his talents to South Beach. He showed that it could just be about friendships and that the ideas of legacy and competition don't really matter to some of this younger generation.

I'm not even sure I'm putting it in to words well, but I think Lebron tore back the curtain for some people a little with his maneuver and that's part of what people feel so angry and betrayed - even if they weren't Cavs (or Knicks) fans.
I guess all that is to say - it's fine with me if the players are buddies. But that should never interfere with the competition. That should be holy or something. And this Lebron stuff is making it obvious that it's not really true for all these younger dudes.

For some reason this week I've been watching tape of the Kings v Lakers 2002 WCF. Those teams HATED each other. Those were some of the most epic games ever. (And, MAN, did the Kings get SCREWED by the refs in EVERY game.) ...I just think the NBA is at its best when the teams genuinely dislike each other and want to beat them. Bird v Magic, Knicks v Bulls, Knicks v Pacers, Knicks v Heat, Kings v Lakers, Bulls v Pistons, Lakers v Pistons, etc...

you hit the nail on the head.... like TMS was mentioning, jordan and Ewing and barkely were friends, but they all wanted to beat each other(although I think ewing and barkley had more invested in that friendship as jordan was just an assasin in every sense of the word.. on and off the court). nevertheless those guys went at each other.. magic and Isiah went at each other.. It was a competition thing. All of those guys wanted to be the best.. with lebron doing things the way he did, it seemed, as you said, to punch holes in the illusion thatthey value competition over friendship..

I mean, you gang up with your boys when are teenagers playing pickup games.. but as Highly paid professionals with yourlegacy on the line, you want to carve out your own... I just like the NBA more when the players seem to dislike one another.. this country club atmosphere is just sickening...

TMS wrote:

tkf wrote:

TMS wrote:Patrick Ewing was great friends with Michael Jordan... Isiah was great friends with Magic... when they got on the court they wanted to kill each other... doesn't matter if these guys are friends or not, it matters how they compete on the court.

honestly, I thought guys like ewing and barkley were great friends with jordan, but jordan was just good friends to them. good enough to hang, but not too good to smash their hopes on the ball court..

i saw Ewing, Jordan, Oakley & Barkley hanging out at the Borgata one time when they had a big boxing match there that night... i think it was the De La Hoya - Hopkins fight... off the court, they seem to be the best of friends... on the court tho, they wanted to kill each other, & that went both ways... i don't remember Ewing or Barkley ever backing down for Jordan, they just got beat.

so true. i remembered MANY times that ewing and barkley wanted to actually fight each other on the court but they were very good friends off the court.

BlueSeats wrote:

tkf wrote: I just like the NBA more when the players seem to dislike one another.. this country club atmosphere is just sickening...

I'm with ya TKF. I always loved this line from Tim Hardaway about his feelings toward the Knicks:

"I hate them with all the hate you can hate with. Can you hate more than that? If you can, I hate them more than that."

Those games had meaning.

well, it is a different age because of the different camps that these kids attended when they were younger. you have to remember that these players knew each other for years. i dont know if it affects their competitive nature. the only player who seems to keep the old values of competition, which i hate to admit it, is kobe. he wants to kill you every time on the court and that is why he repects those who go after him like barnes and artest ( no wonder they are his teammates now).

tkf wrote:

TMS wrote:

tkf wrote:

TMS wrote:Patrick Ewing was great friends with Michael Jordan... Isiah was great friends with Magic... when they got on the court they wanted to kill each other... doesn't matter if these guys are friends or not, it matters how they compete on the court.

honestly, I thought guys like ewing and barkley were great friends with jordan, but jordan was just good friends to them. good enough to hang, but not too good to smash their hopes on the ball court..

i saw Ewing, Jordan, Oakley & Barkley hanging out at the Borgata one time when they had a big boxing match there that night... i think it was the De La Hoya - Hopkins fight... off the court, they seem to be the best of friends... on the court tho, they wanted to kill each other, & that went both ways... i don't remember Ewing or Barkley ever backing down for Jordan, they just got beat.

I have no doubt they hung out, and that they were friends. but honestly, I think the other guys had more invested in that friendship than jordan did.. Mike seemed like the type of guy that will let you get but so close, and I just think that was part of his competitive nature. can't lose that edge... LIke JVG accused MJ of being a con man.. befriending guys like Ewing and then ripping their hearts out.. as someone mentioned, MJ got wind of that and killed us the next game.. He then yelled at JVG to shut up or lace em up... LOL

JVG was a dumbass for that comment... what was Jordan supposed to do? defer & let those guys win out of friendship? that was so ridiculous... i think MJ was the most competitive person to ever walk the face of this earth... he'd have dunked on his mother if he had to in order to win... but that was just in the spirit of competition, had nothing to do w/how he saw these people off the court... that's just my guess... who knows, off the court he could have been the biggest douchebag towards his friends too, but from the way guys speak of him off the court, it doesn't seem that way to me.