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Check the stats: Amare is no upgrade
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MS
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7/7/2010  1:02 PM
Analytics show the Knicks should have saved their money and stuck with David Lee

By Tom Haberstroh
Special to ESPNNewYork.com

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The signing of Amar'e Stoudemire means the Knicks have something to show for their painful payroll cleanse and that is certainly worth something. But here's the reality of the situation: The Knicks just spent $100 million on a player who may not be an upgrade over David Lee.

Let's put aside the fact Stoudemire is one awkward landing on his microfractured knee away from fading into NBA oblivion such as former All-Stars Allan Houston and Chris Webber. Let's also forget for the moment that Lee is younger than Stoudemire and has logged fewer miles on the odometer.

Strictly in terms of production, Lee was the superior player last season and by some accounts, it wasn't even close.

According to ESPN Insider John Hollinger's player metric Estimated Wins Added, which converts a player's box score statistics into an all-in-one win estimate, Lee's stellar play was worth a total of 17.5 wins to the Knicks last season, good for the fifth-best campaign in the NBA. And Stoudemire? His contributions translated to 15.8 wins last season, lower than Lee but still among the league's best.

But EWA represents only one player metric, and when dealing with an imperfect science such as this, it's best to solicit second opinions. What do we find? Statistical consultant to the Pacers and Basketball Prospectus author Kevin Pelton and his Wins Above Replacement Player (WARP) metric tells us that Lee bested Stoudemire by 2.4 wins last season. Another, sports economist Dave Berri's Wins Produced metric, says Lee's basketball worth doubled Stoudemire's on-court contributions last season (17.3 wins to 8.6).

Did the Knicks just hand a nine-figure check to a player that's only half the caliber of Lee? No -- the gap is far narrower than Berri suggests. But in analytics circles, there's still a margin between the two free-agent big men and it's not in Stoudemire's favor. A survey of the four most prominent statistical evaluations has Lee's 2010 season worth 3.1 wins better than Stoudemire's in a season in which both players were healthy and primary scorers on their respective teams.

Critics are quick to point out that Lee was a product of coach Mike D'Antoni's high-octane offense, and his stats should be docked accordingly. It's true, D'Antoni's fast-paced style has the power to inflate per-game numbers, but Lee's efficiency and per possession statistics remain first-rate even after adjusting for the rapid tempo.

And let's not forget Stoudemire had some assistance in Phoenix, too. Stoudemire owes much of his signature pick-and-roll finish to his two-time MVP co-pilot Steve Nash. Not to mention Stoudemire had some of his best years under D'Antoni's direction.

In the end, it comes down to the Knicks making the Amar'e deal for the sake of not appearing complacent this summer; doing something is better than doing nothing at all. Like a goalkeeper in a penalty kick situation picking a side while knowing his best option is to stay put, the Knicks' front office understood that action will be better received by the fans than inaction -- that is, keeping Lee in the fold.

The Knicks will try to sell Stoudemire's electric style of play as justification for the $100 million pricetag, but they may have been better off keeping the extra cash and playing Lee instead. With all the hype surrounding the big signing, it's certainly possible that the Knicks are merely running in place.

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JrZyHuStLa
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7/7/2010  1:04 PM
Don't believe everything you read.

He's an upgrade.

martin
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7/7/2010  1:07 PM
Read this. When there zero explanation on how the studies are done, you know there was also no research into it either.

Amare had decent players around him, Lee did not. It's not a stretch to see how this would skew "win" production.

Boring.

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nyk4ever
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7/7/2010  1:08 PM
martin wrote:Read this. When there zero explanation on how the studies are done, you know there was also no research into it either.

Amare had decent players around him, Lee did not. It's not a stretch to see how this would skew "win" production.

Boring.

my sentiments exactly...

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
MaTT4281
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7/7/2010  1:12 PM
I'm almost as anxious to see where Lee goes and what kind of contract he gets as any other FA. I would have liked to resign him, and I wish him the best anywhere he goes (offer not valid in New Jersey), but Amare is much more of a threat to other teams than Lee has been. Plus, as it has been stressed before (but can't be stressed enough), Amare is a name that guys want to play with and a recruiter that actually gives us a shot at the big time guys.

I'd make the same choice all over.

EwingsGlass
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7/7/2010  1:12 PM
martin wrote:Read this. When there zero explanation on how the studies are done, you know there was also no research into it either.

Amare had decent players around him, Lee did not. It's not a stretch to see how this would skew "win" production.

Boring.

I co-sign this. Ask me to prove a point statistically and I will dredge the numbers until I prove it.

How many double teams did Amare draw even though he was surrounded by much better players in Phoenix?

You know I gonna spin wit it
misterearl
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7/7/2010  1:16 PM
MS - check the stats and an alternate take


"In the player-efficiency ratings developed by ESPN’s John Hollinger, Stoudemire scored a 22.69 last season, the 11th-best mark among all players and fourth among power forwards. He has consistently earned a rating of 20 or higher when healthy. (The PER system rates productivity on a per-minute basis. The league average is 15.)

Stoudemire can step in as the offensive leader from Day 1. He was the Phoenix Suns’ leading scorer in his last five full seasons. He averaged 29.9 points in their storied 2005 playoff run, and 37 per game in the Western Conference finals, against the San Antonio Spurs’ Tim Duncan.


Although Lee is an emerging talent and averaged 20 points last season, he could not create the sort of havoc for opponents that Stoudemire does. He became their leading scorer out of sheer necessity, mostly because no one else was worthy of the role. For the last several years, the Knicks have handed the offense to volume shooters and inefficient scorers, who filled the box score but not the win column: Al Harrington, Jamal Crawford, Zach Randolph, Stephon Marbury, Eddy Curry."

-NYT

Amare is on the marquee at MSG

David Lee is waiting for a phone call

Let it go

once a knick always a knick
MS
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7/7/2010  1:18 PM
It's an interesting read. Obviously there are perception around the league about players. Amare is percieved as the better player. But, if Lebron decides to stay in Cleveland would we have been better off?

We split with the Suns last year and always play them tough.

Amare
18pts 9rbs 3ass
14pts 5rbs

Lee
21pts 13rbs 2ass 2stls
24pts 8rbs 2ass 4stls

It was interesting to watch the playoffs last year. Jason Richardson was the more important player. When he went off the team always one.

MS
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7/7/2010  1:23 PM
Pedro to the Mets = Amare to the Knicks

It's a franchise game changer hopefully that let's teams no we aren't messing around anymore. I agree it needed to be done. For whatever reason Lee doesn't get the respect he deserves around here and around the league. He is going to explode once he gets players around him. If Amare is tight with other guys and can stay healthy enough to get them here obviously it's a home run.

misterearl
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7/7/2010  1:32 PM
The Answer Man Casts His Vote Against Cowardly Thinking In Three Episodes

Q. MS - But, if Lebron decides to stay in Cleveland would we have been better off?

A. Would we have been better off if the Wright Brothers stayed home watching cartoons and forgot about trying to fly that silly machine?

Would Muhammad Ali have been better off if he decided not to tryout for the 1960 Olympic Boxing Team?

Would the Knicks have been better off if they held onto AllStar center Walt Bellamy and left forward Dave DeBusschere in Detroit?

Sheesh

once a knick always a knick
fishmike
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7/7/2010  1:33 PM
how about you watch Amare play basketball. Then watch Lee play basketball. Let me know what you think then and which player you think is better
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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7/7/2010  1:35 PM
whoa ESPN posted a story biased against the Knicks? i am shocked and appalled!
¿ △ ?
nyk4ever
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7/7/2010  1:44 PM
fishmike wrote:how about you watch Amare play basketball. Then watch Lee play basketball. Let me know what you think then and which player you think is better

couldn't have said it better fish. anyone who says amar'e isn't an upgrade over lee doesn't know jack**** about the game of basketball.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Allanfan20
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7/7/2010  2:19 PM
Listen, David Lee is the man. I love the guy, and am pissed that he had to be a free agent NOW because I wish like heck we could keep him. With that said, Amar'e may have smaller stats, but the guy is a FORCE with skill. He plays a little bit better defense then Lee, can block shots, moves just as well without the ball, has a decent shot, commands attention on offense, and most importantly, is an enforcer, like Charles Oakley. He's a guy other teams will be intimidated by. It doesn't show up in the stat sheet, but that's just not something that comes around so easy and we have desperately needed it for years.

And as I've said, if we paired him with David Lee, hey that's pretty f'in cool. I can go with that, but it probably wont happen.

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
TMS
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7/7/2010  5:23 PM
i love the fact that the same people that were saying we'd be stupid not to re-sign D Lee last week are now completely off that bandwagon after we land Amare.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nychamp
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7/7/2010  5:25 PM
Lock it!! Epitomy of missing the point. Bull****!
Vmart
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7/7/2010  5:27 PM
Statistics don't show psychological upgrade. Having Amare makes Gallo play better and everyone else.
Bonn1997
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7/7/2010  5:33 PM
This is based on last year's stats. Is it really that surprising to people that Lee's 20/12 and 4 assists/game came out slightly ahead of Amare's 23/9 and 1 assist? If Amare duplicates last season, I don't think we will have gained much if anything. I'm hoping that he'll be more consistently motivated than he was last year given the new environment. (And if he helped bring Lebron here, then any Lee vs. Amare comparison doesn't matter.)
nychamp
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7/7/2010  5:36 PM
Presence. Ability to dominate. Game flow. Don't just add up the numbers and think you understand.
crzymdups
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7/7/2010  5:40 PM
nychamp wrote:Presence. Ability to dominate. Game flow. Don't just add up the numbers and think you understand.

yeah, i believe that numbers will never be able to accurately describe the game of basketball.

if they did, people wouldn't botch the draft so badly year after year.

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Check the stats: Amare is no upgrade

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