ANd lets be real, the Cavs are built to win NOW. The knicks are not. But the last 10 years are immaterial because of our youth movment and we cleared out players and contracts. The future is different and some players can be a part of that building process.

To say a player only wants to win is BS. They want a shot, a legitimate shot. The key is to go to a team with upside. If Lebron can find his way to a team with a winning chemistry and players still able to contend then he should do that. But they don't have cap. He can ask to be signed and traded, but that might gut a teams future potential.

Gretzky once said its not where the puck is that you go to but where you think the puck will be.

Journalists are funny. Read the first line of the article. It implies that since he FLeeced us for our malcontent that he is an expert on "Lebronism". McHale always had cred as a thoughtful HOF player who took limited athletic abilty and forged incredible fundamentals to be one of the top PF's in the game. As a team exec he was below average.

Its easy to say Lebron is not coming. The odds are always against a franchise player leaving. Eventually the stock market falls and eventually a team comes back in the playoffs from being down three games to one. And then one day it happens.

LeBron to to New York? McHale says it won't happen »
By Frank Isola

Kevin McHale, who once fleeced the Knicks for Latrell Sprewell, doesn't believe LeBron James will end up in New York next season and hinted that others elite free agents may not have the stomach for the Big Apple.

"I'm not sure you want to be the first marine on the beach charging into New York City (to play with the Knicks) unless your name is LeBron James," said McHale, the former Minnesota GM now working for TNT and NBA TV. "I'm not sure who wants to go to New York City, it's going to be very interesting to see what's going to happen there.

"I think players will look at what they have around them and make the best decision for them and where they can win a championship. If you win a championship, it doesn't matter if you're in a big market. Look at San Antonio, they've won four (championships). That's what all players want is to win a championship. I don't think there's going to be as much movement as people anticipate. I think LeBron and Dwyane are going to stay. There's the potential for a lot of these guys to stay and sign with their own teams. How they do in the playoffs will have a small bearing on that."

McHale's fellow TNT analyst, Charles Barkley, believes the Knicks will be in trouble if they don't land LeBron.

"The only one that matters is LeBron James," Sir Charles said. "He's the only one that matters because if any of these other guys move, they aren't going to make a team a contender. Joe Johnson is a heck of a player but if he goes to the New York Knicks, they aren't going to be a contender unless LeBron James goes with (Johnson).

"All of these guys seem to think that the grass is greener on the other side but it's not. LeBron James is the key to all of what will happen this summer. These guys are all really good players, don't get me wrong but if some of these guys switch teams, they are going to be in a worse situation. Unless these teams get two superstars, they are not going to be in a better position."

Barkley also said of the league's reigning MVP, "I am going to be crushed if LeBron James does not stay in Cleveland. Let me say this, Danny Ferry has done more in the last two or three years than any GM in the history of basketball to get a guy a championship in a small period of time. I am going to be crushed from a fan standpoint if LeBron James does not stay in Cleveland."

Barkley will be "crushed"?

NYKBocker wrote:^I agree. Their opinion holds as much water as any poster in UK. It is fun to speculate, that is what we do as fans, but unless they get something direct from the horses mouth then it is just all speculation. It is fun though.

I had fun with it the first month. But it's been almost a year. I jsut want the free-agent period to end so we can discuss actualities instead of guessing.

This plan was destined to fail. Why? Because you don't start the build of the foundation of a championship team with free agency, you start with the draft. Just ask the Los Angeles Lakers who scored Kobe from the draft (albeit a trade, but a draft addition nonetheless) or ask the Celtics, who picked Paul Pierce from the draft. If you want to spin your wheels and become a perennial playoff loser then yes, the Knicks are heading in the right direction. If the Knicks want to become a dynasty then their approach is all wrong. But I dont expect Mike D'Antoni (formerly of the perennial playoff loser Phoenix Suns) and Walsh (formerly of the perennial playoff loser Pacers) to understand this fact.

Go to the draft and get a championship level talent. If you dont score one in that particular year, bide your time and wait for the next year. After you have your young championship level player go to free agency and add to your team. Everyone knows this, I am not sure why this is such a mystery to some people. But as I said, I am not expecting Walsh or D'Antoni to know this.

subzero0 wrote:Anybody with a brain knows Lebron isn't going to sign with New York. He doesn't want to be looked at as a villain, which is how he would be viewed because if it did happen everyone will know that he left just for the money. It really is as simple as that.

This plan was destined to fail. Why? Because you don't start the build of the foundation of a championship team with free agency, you start with the draft. Just ask the Los Angeles Lakers who scored Kobe from the draft (albeit a trade, but a draft addition nonetheless) or ask the Celtics, who picked Paul Pierce from the draft. If you want to spin your wheels and become a perennial playoff loser then yes, the Knicks are heading in the right direction. If the Knicks want to become a dynasty then their approach is all wrong. But I dont expect Mike D'Antoni (formerly of the perennial playoff loser Phoenix Suns) and Walsh (formerly of the perennial playoff loser Pacers) to understand this fact.

Go to the draft and get a championship level talent. If you dont score one in that particular year, bide your time and wait for the next year. After you have your young championship level player go to free agency and add to your team. Everyone knows this, I am not sure why this is such a mystery to some people. But as I said, I am not expecting Walsh or D'Antoni to know this.

Could Kobe have won without Free Agent Signing Shaq?

Celts bonehead max contract tandem of Pierce and Antoine never got it done. Douchebag Pierce needed a bigger douchbag KG and the steady non douchebag Ray Ray to win. Pierce was never traded cuz his contract and toxic nature was too much to offset his extreme talent.

But your right about the draft but the team had to commit to hitting a low and getting a top 3 pick and other assets thru the draft which Isiah did not do.

And while we hae sucked the last few years, trading picks as he did prevented this. This year we could have gone with youth from day one and had a very high pick. That option was determined years ago.

Knick fans don't do traditional rebuilds.

Remember how Boston got Bird? As a 5 year college player they were able to draft him a year before and had his rights. They took him at the 6th pick in 1978. The game with Magic Johnson was 1979:

1978 Round 1
# Team Name College/HS/Country
1 POR Mychal Thompson Minnesota
2 KCK Phil Ford North Carolina
3 IND Rick Robey Kentucky
4 NYK Micheal Richardson Montana
5 GSW Purvis Short Jackson State
6 BOS Larry Bird Indiana State
7 POR Ron Brewer Arkansas
8 BOS Freeman Williams Portland State
9 CHI Reggie Theus Nevada-Las Vegas
10 ATL Butch Lee Marquette
11 NOJ James Hardy San Francisco
12 MIL George Johnson St. John's
13 NJN Winford Boynes San Francisco
14 WA1 Roger Phegley Bradley
15 CLE Mike Mitchell Auburn
16 ATL Jack Givens Kentucky
17 DEN Rod Griffin Wake Forest
18 WA1 Dave Corzine DePaul
19 PHO Marty Byrnes Syracuse
20 SAS Frank Sanders Southern
21 DEN Mike Evans Kansas State
22 GSW Ray Townsend UCLA

Based on the 1979 season is there anyone who would have taken Mychal Thopson over Bird? 1979 was just one of those POrtland bad luck drafting of a center. Look at this:

1972 Round 1
# Team Name College/HS/Country
1 POR LaRue Martin Loyola (IL)
2 BUF Bob McAdoo North Carolina
3 CLE Dwight Davis Houston
4 PHO Corky Calhoun Pennsylvania
5 PHI Fred Boyd Oregon State
6 MIL Russell Lee Marshall
7 SEA Bud Stallworth Kansas
8 NYK Tom Riker South Carolina
9 DET Bob Nash Hawaii
10 BOS Paul Westphal Southern California
11 CHI Ralph Simpson Michigan State
12 MIL Julius Erving Massachusetts
13 LAL Travis Grant Kentucky State
Round 2
# Team Name College/HS/Country
1 POR Bob Davis Weber State
2 BUF Harold Fox Jacksonville
3 LAL Jim Price Louisville
4 DET Chris Ford Villanova
5 SEA Joby Wright Indiana
6 CIN Sam Sibert Kentucky State
7 HOU John Gianelli Pacific
8 ATL Steve Bracey Tulsa
9 LAL Paul Stovall Arizona State
10 SEA Brian Taylor Princeton
11 CLE Steve Hawes Washington
12 BAL Tom Patterson Ouachita Baptist
13 POR Dave Twardzik Old Dominion
14 BOS Dennis Wuycik North Carolina
15 CIN Mike Ratliff Eau Claire State
16 MIL Chuck Terry Long Beach State
17 POR Ollie Johnson Temple

Some of these guys did well in the ABA. That 12th pick in the first round? Doc took the Money from the ABA. Larue played 4 seasons and avg. 5 pts a game.

Look at # 9 pick Bob Nash. Imagine its 1972 and your balling in Hawaii. Then you get drafted (remember its 1972) to play in Detroit? THat hadda hurt!

1984 Round 1
# Team Name College/HS/Country
1 HOU Akeem Olajuwon Houston
2 POR Sam Bowie Kentucky
3 CHI Michael Jordan North Carolina
4 DAL Sam Perkins North Carolina
5 PHI Charles Barkley Auburn
6 WA1 Mel Turpin Kentucky
7 SAS Alvin Robertson Arkansas
8 LAC Lancaster Gordon Louisville
9 KCK Otis Thorpe Providence
10 PHI Leon Wood Cal State-Fullerton
11 ATL Kevin Willis Michigan State
12 CLE Tim McCormick Michigan
13 PHO Jay Humphries Colorado
14 LAC Michael Cage San Diego State
15 DAL Terence Stansbury Temple
16 UTA John Stockton Gonzaga
17 NJN Jeff Turner Vanderbilt
18 IND Vern Fleming Georgia
19 POR Bernard Thompson Fresno State
20 DET Tony Campbell Ohio State
21 MIL Kenny Fields UCLA
22 PHI Tom Sewell Lamar
23 LAL Earl Jones District of Columbia
24 BOS Michael Young Houston

Ouch. 3 HOF's in the first 5 picks. They had Clyde Drexler a the time. Who knew Jordan would be Mike?

2007Round 1
# Team Name College/HS/Country
1 POR Greg Oden Ohio State University
2 SEA Kevin Durant University of Texas
3 ATL Al Horford University of Florida
4 MEM Mike Conley Ohio State University
5 BOS Jeff Green Georgetown University
6 MIL Yi Jianlian China
7 MIN Corey Brewer University of Florida
8 CHR Brandan Wright University of North Carolina
9 CHI Joakim Noah University of Florida
10 SAC Spencer Hawes University of Washington
11 ATL Acie Law Texas A&M University
12 PHI Thaddeus Young Georgia Tech University
13 NOO Julian Wright University of Kansas
14 LAC Al Thornton Florida State University
15 DET Rodney Stuckey Eastern Washington University
16 WAS Nick Young University of Southern California
17 NJN Sean Williams Boston College
18 GSW Marco Belinelli Italy
19 LAL Javaris Crittenton Georgia Institute of Technology
20 MIA Jason Smith Colorado State University
21 PHI Daequan Cook Ohio State University
22 CHR Jared Dudley Boston College
23 NYK Wilson Chandler DePaul University
24 PHO Rudy Fernandez Spain
25 UTA Morris Almond Rice University
26 HOU Aaron Brooks University of Oregon
27 DET Arron Afflato UCLA
28 SAS Tiago Splitter Brazil
29 PHO Alando Tucker University of Wisconsin
30 PHI Petteri Koponen Finland

Jury is out on Oden still but whats obvious is obvious.

Notice #28 for SAS? They might sign him this summer.

Notice the lack of knick picks over the years?

bitty41 wrote:

subzero0 wrote:Anybody with a brain knows Lebron isn't going to sign with New York. He doesn't want to be looked at as a villain, which is how he would be viewed because if it did happen everyone will know that he left just for the money. It really is as simple as that.

This plan was destined to fail. Why? Because you don't start the build of the foundation of a championship team with free agency, you start with the draft. Just ask the Los Angeles Lakers who scored Kobe from the draft (albeit a trade, but a draft addition nonetheless) or ask the Celtics, who picked Paul Pierce from the draft. If you want to spin your wheels and become a perennial playoff loser then yes, the Knicks are heading in the right direction. If the Knicks want to become a dynasty then their approach is all wrong. But I dont expect Mike D'Antoni (formerly of the perennial playoff loser Phoenix Suns) and Walsh (formerly of the perennial playoff loser Pacers) to understand this fact.

Go to the draft and get a championship level talent. If you dont score one in that particular year, bide your time and wait for the next year. After you have your young championship level player go to free agency and add to your team. Everyone knows this, I am not sure why this is such a mystery to some people. But as I said, I am not expecting Walsh or D'Antoni to know this.

Yea the Knicks think they have figured out a way to cheat the system. They think by clearing cap space and being in NYC that the natural progression of things is a Championship caliber squad. This is all a bunch of bs being sold by Knick's ownership/management to keep the seats filled. D'Antoni has underachieved and Walsh has done a subpar job on his end but now we are suppose to believe that in the span of one summer the Knick's fortune will just change.

I would guess that season ticket sales prob went up for next year but at the same time Knicks were already 6th in attendance after a decade of caca, so your underlying doesn't really hold. Perhaps suite sales goes up, but I don't know if that is accounted for already.

After the trade, you have to believe we now have a shot simply because it now makes sense from a basketball standpoint for LeBron to leave Cleveland if he can get a star to come along with him to NY (which is probably pretty damn likely as I bet someone like Bosh or Amare would join him in a heartbeat). Cleveland is built to win now, which is a blessing and a curse. In their efforts to appease LeBron's short term, the Cavs haven't done a very good job of giving James reason to stay in the long-term. Most/All of their assets have been sacrificed for veterans that are past their prime. Their window at a championship is extremely narrow and if the Cavs don't win it this season, there is a realistic chance they don't win one within the next 2-3 seasons as presently constructed. For all that is said about Cleveland giving LeBron the best opportunity to win, many quickly forget how handicapped they are and how difficult it will be for them to provide LeBron with an adequate supporting cast going forward. If LeBron is serious about winning multiple titles in the future, you have to think NY gives him a better opportunity to do that if he brings along a player like Bosh.

This is why it makes no sense whatsoever for LeBron, Wade, or Bosh to decide their futures before they go on recruiting visits.

s3231 wrote:Truth is, before the McGrady trade, we had very little chance at LeBron.

After the trade, you have to believe we now have a shot simply because it now makes sense from a basketball standpoint for LeBron to leave Cleveland if he can get a star to come along with him to NY (which is probably pretty damn likely as I bet someone like Bosh or Amare would join him in a heartbeat). Cleveland is built to win now, which is a blessing and a curse. In their efforts to appease LeBron's short term, the Cavs haven't done a very good job of giving James reason to stay in the long-term. Most/All of their assets have been sacrificed for veterans that are past their prime. Their window at a championship is extremely narrow and if the Cavs don't win it this season, there is a realistic chance they don't win one within the next 2-3 seasons as presently constructed. For all that is said about Cleveland giving LeBron the best opportunity to win, many quickly forget how handicapped they are and how difficult it will be for them to provide LeBron with an adequate supporting cast going forward. If LeBron is serious about winning multiple titles in the future, you have to think NY gives him a better opportunity to do that if he brings along a player like Bosh.

This is why it makes no sense whatsoever for LeBron, Wade, or Bosh to decide their futures before they go on recruiting visits.

i dont see bosh being a second to lbj and not hating it. he seems to want to be the main guy who gets credit for winning more than actually winning.

sidsanders wrote:

s3231 wrote:Truth is, before the McGrady trade, we had very little chance at LeBron.

After the trade, you have to believe we now have a shot simply because it now makes sense from a basketball standpoint for LeBron to leave Cleveland if he can get a star to come along with him to NY (which is probably pretty damn likely as I bet someone like Bosh or Amare would join him in a heartbeat). Cleveland is built to win now, which is a blessing and a curse. In their efforts to appease LeBron's short term, the Cavs haven't done a very good job of giving James reason to stay in the long-term. Most/All of their assets have been sacrificed for veterans that are past their prime. Their window at a championship is extremely narrow and if the Cavs don't win it this season, there is a realistic chance they don't win one within the next 2-3 seasons as presently constructed. For all that is said about Cleveland giving LeBron the best opportunity to win, many quickly forget how handicapped they are and how difficult it will be for them to provide LeBron with an adequate supporting cast going forward. If LeBron is serious about winning multiple titles in the future, you have to think NY gives him a better opportunity to do that if he brings along a player like Bosh.

This is why it makes no sense whatsoever for LeBron, Wade, or Bosh to decide their futures before they go on recruiting visits.

i dont see bosh being a second to lbj and not hating it. he seems to want to be the main guy who gets credit for winning more than actually winning.

Well, if Bosh has a choice between winning a few titles with LeBron and being the man on a team that will probably never win a championship, I think he would go with the former. However, even if he does want to be the man and declines an opportunity to play with LeBron, there are still other guys out there that would love to play with him (e.g. Amare). As long as LeBron brings one of those top 5 free agents over with him to NY, he is automatically in a better position to win championships long-term than he would be in Cleveland.

bitty41 wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Bitty, what is the expectation? Championship caliber next year?

Or progress meaured not by roster inclusions but wins and loses.

If we make the playoffs next year is that enough success or still a failure?

Not hating, just wondering what expectations are?

Walsh has put the Knicks organization in this corner. Giving up two possible lotto pick not to mention very talented players to create a team no better than Charlotte or Mil would be an utter failure. See I would have been happy with a .500 record and some playoffs games but Walsh removed any possibility for that with D'Antoni' subpar coaching, so he better be ready with a huge splash come this summer.

I guess we differ in that I really did not think even had anything close to playoff potentinal this year.

Just perspective.

Could envision that its worth it to have the two max free agent ability?

ANd if now we could engineer trades to take on salary if they give us picks or utes in return? Would put us back to where we were, but we get that "shot"?

WE all got our expectations. Mine are low to begin with.

Seems our problem is we don't suck enough to get franchise talent in the draft or we starphuch the picks away.