I think we need atleast 1 guy who is 6-10+ out of the two--Id like to see if we can address the lack of size through the draft and free agency/trade--I would say we need to add 2 guys who are 6-11 but can also move and do some things.

Finestrg wrote:Omar Shamhan today at 1:05 Briggy. Channel 2..

there is a spot for him in the nBA but it wont be with the Knicks. I dont think they will like his foot speed.

Olbrannon wrote:As of now Vernardo is probably the best choice that could be available then aas far as upside.
Bouldin looks a good prospect. The thing you want to avoid is the Steve Alford
pick set shooter that has high IQ but doesn't translate.

Monroe could fall depending on his workouts. I love Trevor Booker. Reminds me of DeeJuan Blair

And I'm just pickin' at you in the other thread Briggs ;)

But something has to be done down low. You need someone like KG or Rodman in the paint. Can Vernado be that guy?

I'm just not sold on Jarvis Varnado --- I just have a guarded view on what his ceiling is...I respect him, he plays hard and blocks a ton of shots but for the last two years, I've seen him run out of gas at the end of games and I've seen him get muscled by bigger players. Very thin and he's just not a supreme athlete. There might be some conditioning issues or God forbid some health issues we may not know about (and I stress God forbid). And he's raw offensively (for those of you who have called Jordan Hill raw - this kid can't even do half the things Hill can do on the offensive side of the ball)...Big O, you mentioned KG & Rodman -- I'm not sure I see either guy as a comparison. He's not nearly as skilled overall as The Ticket. Not even close. If anything he's closer to Rodman but doesn't possess Rodman's motor (not many guys do for that matter - just part of the reason Rodman was special). Rodman was like an energizer bunny-type of athlete out there that threw his body all over the place, guarded every player on the court and never appeared to tire. Varnado, from what I've seen anyway, doesn't have that kind of athleticism or versatility...I'm not even sure he's a starting caliber player in the NBA. Maybe more of a support player/defensive specialist you use in spurts off the bench in favorable matchups (he's much more of a weakside help defender than a one-on-one defender)...Even so, definitely interesting for us - he'd finally give us a defensive presence inside to guard the tin.

Same with Trevor Booker - I like him a lot but both Booker individually and his team really underachieved this season. I guess I just expected a hell of a lot more out of him personally and that team, esp. with the big-time freshman class they brought in. Still, he's a solid young big man that even with the lack of height issue can really do some nice things for you. He did manage to expand his offensive game to the point where he's now outside on the perimeter poppin' 3s...

And I like this kid Omar Samhan from St. Mary's. Big old-school type of big man -- a wide body with solid footwork - he manages to make good use of pump fakes & up & unders in close. Nice touch on the ball as well. He's got a lot of personality too - looks like a very colorful sort of character...Not the quickest guy running the floor in transition though and he has a noticeable lack of lift off the floor when going for rebounds and when executing offensive moves such as that turnaround jumper of his (in the NBA he'll be facing a much better quality of big man on a nightly basis than he does now - bigger, stronger, faster and much more athletic - I could see his offensive game being neutralized somewhat as a result). Overall he looks solid though. At the very least he looks like he could be an impact backup center at the next level.

Too bad we don't care to investigate players in the D-League -- each one of these guys has a counterpart in the NBDL with similar skills --- Varnado--Mickell Gladness, Booker--Alexander Johnson, Samhan--Dwayne Jones (Johnson and Jones in particular have been very productive)...If we tried out one of these guys instead and they proved halfway capable, we wouldn't have to use a pick to add that type of component. That would be the logical move to make at this point if you ask me...As of right now, I'd still prefer some backcourt help myself with those picks but if we stand pat in the 2nd round and any of these three bigs are still on the board, we probably couldn't go wrong..

TMS wrote:drafting out of the 2nd round i think u have to expect we get a player that isn't polished & has certain flaws in his game... you're not going to get the top prospects at #35 or higher... we really should be looking to trade up or buy another pick like we did to get Toney Douglas last summer... i'd much rather build a core so we have a good nucleus of talent in place & then worry about signing FA's... sorta what the plan was supposed to be before we made the T-Mac trade.

How's this for a complete overhaul of the team:

DRAFT

(1) Cash and a future 2 to move up into the late first round and draft either Sherron Collins or Greivis Vasquez

(2) Cash and the worse of the two 2010 2nd rounders to move up and take Quincy Pondexter

(3) With the higher 2 we still have left, take the best available big that's still on the board OR BETTER YET package that 2 & cash to move up enough to get the big they really covet - maybe Varnado.
* Remember, it'll probably take a 2nd round pick along with $3 million a pop to execute these move-ups. I believe we parted with a future 2 in addition to the cash to get TD

We'd address 3 key areas: we'd be adding a solid PG, an athletic scoring/rebounding 6'7" wing AND the best shot-blocker in the history of college basketball

THE REST OF THE OFF-SEASON

(1) Add a good summer league invitee or 2 - 2 guys that are actually good and prove they can contribute

(2) Add 2 stars through FA with the $30+ million in cap room we just cleared

Rotation:

1 - Douglas, Collins or Vasquez
2 - Chandler, Pondexter, Vasquez, Giddens?
3 - LeBron, Gallinari, Walker, Pondexter
4 - Bosh, Varnado, Alexander Johnson
5 - Dwayne Jones, Bosh, Varnado, Curry
----------
That's 13 guys. Maybe we look to add 2 more guys to finalize it at 15 (at least 2 good practice players, possibly something even better).

If I were the architect, that'd be my initial blueprint going in until I was forced to change it. If we were somehow able to execute every move here, it'd make for one deep rotation with a ton of versatility and interchangeability. Most importantly, I think it may be enough of an overall upgrade to entice both LeBron & Bosh to come here (esp. if they each knew the other was coming aboard with them). It even might be enough quality depth to afford us the luxury to shop Chandler and/or Gallo, possibly for an even better upgrade at the 5 spot (with LeBron & Bosh anchoring the whole thing & enough overall depth in place now, maybe we use Chandler & Gallo as bait to pull off a Pau Gasol type trade like the one the Lakers did a couple of years ago --- you figure any package starting with Chandler, Gallo or BOTH is a hell of a lot better than the package the Lakers gave up to get Gasol)...A lot of things would have to break right for this plan to work but I think it's more doable than it sounds.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5012462&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines

Finestrg wrote:In sign & trade scenarios, we'd have to move salary for salary -- how are we going to be able to come up with the equivalent of 2 max salaries worth of assets going back?

a team that's under the cap can make salary lopsided deals... we are under no restrictions to take back salary for salary this summer like we were in prior years... right now we can feasibly use D Lee, Wilson, Gallo, Walker & Toney Douglas as trade assets if we must, but that also leaves u very bare depth wise once u make the deal... depending on how Donnie uses the 2nd round picks & Dolan's cash resources this summer, he may be able to amass a few more usable assets to include in a trade... history shows us most teams that acquire top level talent in the offseason do so in sign & trade scenarios... there's only really been 1 instance where a high profile FA has straight signed on to join a new team (Shaq leaving Orlando for the Lakers)... will Lebron or Bosh follow in Shaq's footsteps? who knows... this is a big part of the reason why giving away young assets to free up cap space may not have been the best way to go, especially when we already had cap space to take on more salary than we gave up this summer in deals... now we're very limited on the assets available to deal.

2 players for the Austin Toros -- C Dwayne Jones & PG Curtis Jerrells

Jones: 17 pts, 27 rebs, 2 blocks in 53 mins (an OT win). Take a look at this guy's rebounding totals throughout the season game by game - it's off the charts. Some impressive scoring games included in there as well (http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/gamelogs.jsp?player=dwayne_jones).

Jerrells: 33 pts (13-23 from the field), 10 assists in 51 mins. Jerrells' last 3 games: 33 pts., 30 pts., 35 pts.

Now I wouldn't necessarily expect those types of numbers in the NBA from these guys but I think Jones could be a very serviceable, productive big man (I haven't seen a ton of tape on Jones but 27 rebs is 27 rebs no matter how you slice it. He must be doing something right -- Gallinari, a guy at similar size, can barely manage a couple of rebs a game). And I can see this guy Jerrells being even more than that to be honest. I've seen much more of Jerrells over the last few years -- this young man has a ton of talent. More than enough talent to be playing in the NBA right now if you ask me...The Toros are a San Antonio affiliate but neither guy is under contract by the Spurs. They're both fair game. At this point, a 10-day contract or even a contract for the rest of the season is ALL REWARD, ZERO RISK (the big thing I like is that both guys would come extremely cheap)..Make a move for one of these guys Donnie!! Put yourself in position to discover a good player here for virtually nothing...I think the Knicks are nuts if they don't give either guy a look here right now before formulating anything else. Given our positions of need, there's no reason in the world not to. I wanna see the Knicks put their best foot forward on matters for a change.

TMS wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

TMS wrote:

Finestrg wrote:In sign & trade scenarios, we'd have to move salary for salary -- how are we going to be able to come up with the equivalent of 2 max salaries worth of assets going back?

a team that's under the cap can make salary lopsided deals... we are under no restrictions to take back salary for salary this summer like we were in prior years... right now we can feasibly use D Lee, Wilson, Gallo, Walker & Toney Douglas as trade assets if we must, but that also leaves u very bare depth wise once u make the deal... depending on how Donnie uses the 2nd round picks & Dolan's cash resources this summer, he may be able to amass a few more usable assets to include in a trade... history shows us most teams that acquire top level talent in the offseason do so in sign & trade scenarios... there's only really been 1 instance where a high profile FA has straight signed on to join a new team (Shaq leaving Orlando for the Lakers)... will Lebron or Bosh follow in Shaq's footsteps? who knows... this is a big part of the reason why giving away young assets to free up cap space may not have been the best way to go, especially when we already had cap space to take on more salary than we gave up this summer in deals... now we're very limited on the assets available to deal.

Ahh, right. My bad. I confused that point a little but still maintain the argument though...I guess it's kinda like when the Clippers (or was it the 76ers - I can't remember now) were originally offering a mere 2nd round pick for Zach Randolph before we eventually got back a few serviceable players & a big money-saving contract for the owner in the deal instead --- looking back, as a fan I would've preferred the 2nd round pick, but the GM/owner had other plans). Point is that team had the cap room, knew we were desperate, and initially offered up next to nothing. Thing is we still had the ability to say no & pull Randolph off the table because he was still our property. Not the same thing here -- these guys are straight up FAs. Still don't see the need to make any deals with either team to get those players (even without going salary for salary - which there's no need to do as you pointed out, we still really don't have the resources). We're talking the NY Knicks, the Mecca and perhaps the league's biggest market, being $30+ million under the cap this off-season - just looking back throughout history, I'd be willing to bet that's just as much a rarity as anything else. Unprecedented even. Such a rarity to have a major attractive market like NY that far under the cap -- I betcha that hasn't happened that often. You can look at it that way...I'm looking to capitalize on that now..Unless we choose to give each team something in order to appease and keep up good relations with them moving forward, I can't really think of any other reason for us to go that route. And why should we? Nobody gives a rat's ass about us -- it's really not a good reason at all to needlessly cough up additional resources. In fact from our end, it's utterly pointless..These teams will take hits for sure but if they go about rebuilding properly, they'll be back on their feet again soon enough (Orlando eventually recovered after they lost Shaq and Penny right? First they went through the McGrady/Grant Hill era which didn't really work out as planned, but look at that team now - they're one of the league's best teams now - a team that went to the finals last year - with one of the best players around in Dwight Howard)..Whatever, I really don't care about those teams. Not our problem...Donnie really sacrificed a ton to open up this cap room -- I'm really looking forward to having this cap room work for us now w/o having to give up anything more. Couldn't care less about making fair deals with these teams. I know for a fact they wouldn't care about us if the roles were reversed..I still say we're in good shape here. All I'm looking for my team to do now is play by the rules, execute their gameplan & capitalize.

every single team that's contending right now in the NBA got there by building up through the draft & by making trades to add players first & then targetting FA's to fill in the gaps... we're doing everything in the reverse, trying to build a core to build around through free agent signings & filling in the gaps with the players we drafted (Wilson, Gallo, Douglas) & traded for (Walker, Giddens)

it's not pointless to offer up assets in sign & trades because by doing so you're giving these players the extra year on their contracts that they otherwise could not get if they signed with you outright... it behooves the players to seek to go this route to get that extra money, & behooves their teams to get back assets in exchange for these players rather than allow them to walk for nothing... this isn't like in baseball where teams get compensation draft picks when players leave their teams as free agents... NBA teams get nothing when guys leave as free agents... that's why they're always motivated to seek out these types of deals... sign & trades help all 3 parties get what they're looking for.

in essence what we're holding out hope for is that Lebron & Bosh both leave the teams that drafted & developed them & the cities that they built their fame in the lurch & in the process leave an extra year at max salary on the table by signing with us outright this summer... do you think that will happen? i dunno about that one.

Fair points but consider these counterpoints --

I understand what most teams have typically done to build their teams over the years. You're right. However our situation here is completely different. Don't you think so?? We're a team that now has a limited amount of tradeable assets (outside of David Lee, a guy who could reject a trade to go anywhere provide he gets the multiple offers this summer that he's anticipating, what do we have to trade exactly? We can't possible deal away any future 1st round picks and outside of a few leftover players like Chandler, Gallo and TD, players we most likely want to move forward with at this time unless we can find adequate replacements eventually, the cupboard is bare).. BUT WHAT WE DO HAVE is a boatload of cap room. And even though we've been terrible the past few years, we're still arguably the league's top market and most desirable location with the most popular coach (among the star players anyway)...Go back to Lee for a sec as a tradeable asset -- does he really want to leave the country and go play in Toronto in place of Chris Bosh, even if they agreed to give him what he wanted? Would he really want to go to Cleveland minus LeBron James and be part of another team's rebuilding process after all he just went through in NY to get to this point? I'm not sure about that...Point being, he's theoretically our biggest moveable asset but I can't see him agreeing to go to either place, not if there are more favorable destinations out there that are willing to pay him. The uniqueness of this situation speaks for itself -- the Knicks aren't set up like your typical team and I don't expect them to have a typical off-season. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm not expecting 'with-the-grain' here but a ton of 'against-the-grain' this summer.

And I believe it is pointless for us to offer up anything for these players. Just look at it from ONLY our perspective for a minute --- I understand these guys can recoup the 6th year through a S&T but what if we signed these guys to 5 years with an opt out after 2 or 3? That would leave room to renegotiate only after a few years which would allow them to recoup any lost salary funds much sooner than later. A gamble? I guess a little bit but if these guys really want NY and are educated on a plan that details how they can go about recouping any lost salary (exceeding any lost salary actually, that's what they're looking at by coming here, by leaps & bounds in fact when everything's considered. More on that in a sec..), this 6th year suddenly doesn't seem like such a big deal...How do we know that's not what Walsh has in mind? Answer: we don't but I could certainly see it. I can guarantee you if we landed these guys, that's exactly how their contracts will be structured - built-in protection with opt-outs - it's typical nowadays with these type of contracts anyway. Not to mention the money will take care of itself for these guys -- remember we're talking NYC and the Tri-State area, the most densely populated region in the world. You know how many people will go out and instantly buy LeBron & Bosh sneakers, apparel, what have you? Especially with the team finally winning?? Forget it.. Count me in -- I'll be down to Modell's, Dick's or Sports Authority to get all sorts of stuff for me and my son. I used to work at Modell's back in the day -- the day after the Yankees won the World Series in '96 people lined up for hours before the joint even opened to get there Yankee stuff. This will be even bigger. I can't even imagine...To say the endorsement opportunities will be lucrative is possibly the biggest understatement of all time. More like ground-breaking or off-the-charts... Now as a Knick fan, would you prefer the team go about it that way or deal away whatever else we have left in the cupboard along with 1st round picks in 2013, 2014, & 2015 in order to land these guys? Easy answer. What these teams may want isn't necessarily what these teams are gonna get from the Knicks, esp. if the players are on board with us.

TMS, you make good points and I'm not trying to argue with you my dude, just trying to come up with an alternate reality here a little bit..I mean I just can't see us trading away anything else at this point until we finally are able to deal from a position of strength (a few posts above, I discussed a Paul Gasol type deal we could possibly make eventually -- but that's only after we lay the entire foundation and assemble a successful team first). We're stripped to the bone as it is and would never be able to offer Toronto or Cleveland (esp. Cleveland for James) fair compensation anyway. We really need to hold onto what we have now. Keeping what little we do have left only adds to the attractiveness of the situation too. Let's not forget that. Would LeBron & Bosh want to come here if they knew Gallo, Chandler and TD along with more future 1st round draft picks would all be gone? No they probably wouldn't. They'd want to come play with those guys and they'd probably prefer we hold onto our picks in 2013-2015. I know I would. Just trying to present a different perspective....

MaTT4281 wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Some D-League stats from last night

2 players for the Austin Toros -- C Dwayne Jones & PG Curtis Jerrells

Jones: 17 pts, 27 rebs, 2 blocks in 53 mins (an OT win). Take a look at this guy's rebounding totals throughout the season game by game - it's off the charts. Some impressive scoring games included in there as well (http://www.nba.com/dleague/playerfile/gamelogs.jsp?player=dwayne_jones).

Jerrells: 33 pts (13-23 from the field), 10 assists in 51 mins. Jerrells' last 3 games: 33 pts., 30 pts., 35 pts.

Now I wouldn't necessarily expect those types of numbers in the NBA from these guys but I think Jones could be a very serviceable, productive big man (I haven't seen a ton of tape on Jones but 27 rebs is 27 rebs no matter how you slice it. He must be doing something right -- Gallinari, a guy at similar size, can barely manage a couple of rebs a game). And I can see this guy Jerrells being even more than that to be honest. I've seen much more of Jerrells over the last few years -- this young man has a ton of talent. More than enough talent to be playing in the NBA right now if you ask me...The Toros are a San Antonio affiliate but neither guy is under contract by the Spurs. They're both fair game. At this point, a 10-day contract or even a contract for the rest of the season is ALL REWARD, ZERO RISK (the big thing I like is that both guys would come extremely cheap)..Make a move for one of these guys Donnie!! Put yourself in position to discover a good player here for virtually nothing...I think the Knicks are nuts if they don't give either guy a look here right now before formulating anything else. Given our positions of need, there's no reason in the world not to. I wanna see the Knicks put their best foot forward on matters for a change.

Ah man, I love Jerrells, but I go to Baylor - so obviously a little biased.
Hadn't heard what he's been up to since he graduated, so I'm glad to see he's putting up some good numbers.

Dude will score in bunches and won't shy away from taking the big shots. He's got pretty good handle, but was always used as more of a combo guard down here than an actual PG. Not lightning fast, but a solid rebounder and can bully other PGs into the paint.

I'd be ecstatic to see a former Bear in the orange and blue, but with Toney showing so much, IDK if Jerrells is much of a fit for NY. He'd either be eating into TD's shots, or taking away Walker/Gidden's end of the season auditions.

Thanks for the insight Matty...I think now's the time to audition everyone and I think there's enough mins. to go around to even incorporate another young D-Leaguer or two. A guy like Al Harrington would have to sit, Duhon would have to sit, etc. That's how I'd do it -- it might help Utah's cause a little with that pick we owe them, but I don't even care about that stuff anymore - we have some stuff we need to find out here and we don't have much time (if we lost some games in the process trying to find out more on some guys it would help us with our own 2nd rounder, so we can look at it that way)...I think Jerrells would fit in well here and would make things interesting for the rest of the year. Sergio's not even playing anymore and now they broke Duhon out and dusted him off a couple of games ago -- just give Jerrells those minutes..The Mayor & Bender are out for the rest of the year, McGrady can barely go half a game...There's some mins. available right now...We're gonna need another PG for next year to split things up with Douglas. I think this kid's more than capable. If we brought him in right now and he really showed well, it could make them re-evaluate the backcourt and what to do with those 2nd round picks. I think Jerrells is equivalent to any PG we can get in the 2nd round (I like Collins and Vasquez but I think they wind up going higher) and he's still young and hungry. He's just ripping up the NBDL right now -- I'd like to see us give him a shot.

And just to touch on Toney for a sec -- he had a rough stretch to close out the game yesterday but D'Antoni, if you're reading this, STICK WITH HIM you hear me! You gotta let him play through games like these, It's the only way he'll continue to improve....Come next game if Toney's numbers are suddenly reduced off his poor 4th quarter, I might kick the damn TV in - that's how mad it'll make me. Leave it alone Mike -- continue to start him and play him in the 4th quarter!!! He's your guy now..