franco12 wrote:But if Walsh & Dolan really wanted to undo Isiah's mess, they'd wait until they could move Jefferies & Curry without trading away picks & young talent.

Doing so fits into the Isiah/Dolan mentality of 'one more move, and we're competitive again'.

Not dumping Hill/Jeffries and their 9.5M cap hit meant we had no shot this summer.

Now we have a shot this summer.

That is the point of doing that trade.

Otherwise you were co-signing being another 30 win team, selecting another Hill in 2011, and then tearing down the roster in a year where the FA crop isn't good.

That would have been a failure.

But that's not entirely what this post was about. It's about why we had to do what we did and why the core that was there wasn't worth trying to add to.

Did you view the chart? Or did you just post.

We all remember Isiah's ups and downs vividly enough. No need to set it to powerpoint.

Yeah, whoas me, so terrible to download, look over, and say to yourself, "Man, no matter what Isiah did in recycling contracts for players, we kept on getting WORSE, Walsh has the right idea!"

WindsorPl wrote:Cosmic,
I am surprised you are still for the trade after looking at the chart.
Yes, we get a shot at 2 top FAs this summer. But at what cost? The chart shows the cost of those kind of trades is mediocrity for years. And your chart stops in 2007.
Your argument is this is not the same trades, this is not a cap killing trade. True, but it is another quick fix gamble that sacrifices the future.
The argument will not be settled until july. If Lebron and a friend sign, then it was worth it. If he does not, it was not.

Thanks for the reply.

Well I made the chart in 2007, so, that's why it ends in 2007.

As to your points, yes I do consider the fact that we might not sign anyone of consequence a possibility. In fact an equal possibility to signing 2 very good players.

However I felt the risk was necessary for the direction we were heading, TO ME, guaranteed that we would continue to be stuck in the rut. The rut of a mediocre roster, just good enough to ensure we picked 8th again, which wouldn't be a franchise player. A team that might have considered (and still might unfortunately) re-signing Lee, Harrington and Duhon and putting faith in the picks. Putting us yet again in a capped out situation with a mediocre roster now praying the 2012 pick helps us - of which I feel we'd still be just good enough to ensure it wouldn't be a top pick.

So now here we are in 2012.

Hill, Lee, Chandler, Gallo, Douglas, 2011 choice, 2012 choice (both of which are average players at best). And no room to sign any good players. And still winning ~35 games a year.

See, right or wrong, that is where >>I<< saw the team heading.

I think the Jared trade could change that. I think it gives us the CHANCE. CHANCE! To potentially build a future contending team.

And for that, I was willing to take the risk of making that trade - versus the risk of not making the trade.

The reward of the risk of making the trade has the POTENTIAL to be far greater than the risk of not making the trade. In fact not making the trade to me pretty much locked us into a very good chance that'd we'd continue this mediocre march of praying we win 38 and sneak into the playoffs year after year.

I was done with that. So that's why I support the gutting of the team.

I don't know who will sign here. I'm not delusional. I don't believe that we're landing Bosh and LeBron no questions asked. But the trade we made gives us a lot better CHANCE at doing so.

And that's why I support the decision.

Now, what happens starting next year and spanning the following TWO full seasons? That's something else to debate as it unfolds. It may be great, it may not be, we don't know yet.

BUT the bottom line for me is: We HAD to put ourselves in the position to achieve the GREAT. Without the trade we had no shot to do so.

So the trade and the risk that comes with it was warranted and even if we fail I would still look back and say I'd do it again.

....Now, Again, the purpose of that chart 3 years ago was to show that as Isiah made deals we just continued to sink like a rock. So to me what that meant was no matter how you tweaked the core the result would be the same.

To me that meant we had to tear down the team.

So looking back, now seeing Walsh tear down the team, I think that chart I made 3 years ago absolutely supports Walsh's decision.

This is exactly what people need to take a few steps back and understand why we need a brutal hand to tear everything down and start anew.

What struck me was how some improvements we sometimes felt (ie: playoffs after the marbury trade)were only calm between 2 storms.

2nd incredible thing that is clearly showed by this chart is how it's been a slow and painful decline. We just slipped year after year, each one becoming more sad than the precedent one. More hopes at the beginning of each season that would be disgustingly betrayed at the end.

What it shows is a long streak of many many bad decisions. Most terrible thing is I already forgot some of those (ie: what happened under Chaney and how he was fired). But each event was painful to live through (heck, I remember Spoon getting blocked all the freaking time).

I personaly don't worship JVG, but I recognize the fact that the guy tried to make things hold around him. His departure just started the downward spiral as it's clearly showed on the chart. Cause and consequences sometimes merge and I guess his departure was just a catalyst for the plague do devour our dying body.

Once more, a great but disheartening work.

Thanks Cosmic!

raven wrote:Excellent work, thanks cosmic.

This is exactly what people need to take a few steps back and understand why we need a brutal hand to tear everything down and start anew.

What struck me was how some improvements we sometimes felt (ie: playoffs after the marbury trade)were only calm between 2 storms.

2nd incredible thing that is clearly showed by this chart is how it's been a slow and painful decline. We just slipped year after year, each one becoming more sad than the precedent one. More hopes at the beginning of each season that would be disgustingly betrayed at the end.

What it shows is a long streak of many many bad decisions. Most terrible thing is I already forgot some of those (ie: what happened under Chaney and how he was fired). But each event was painful to live through (heck, I remember Spoon getting blocked all the freaking time).

I personaly don't worship JVG, but I recognize the fact that the guy tried to make things hold around him. His departure just started the downward spiral as it's clearly showed on the chart. Cause and consequences sometimes merge and I guess his departure was just a catalyst for the plague do devour our dying body.

Once more, a great but disheartening work.

Thanks Cosmic!

Thanks. I thought it was a good image to bring up and would maybe help some really see exactly why we had to take this new path.

Cosmic wrote:

WindsorPl wrote:

Cosmic wrote:So now here we are in 2012.

Hill, Lee, Chandler, Gallo, Douglas, 2011 choice, 2012 choice (both of which are average players at best). And no room to sign any good players. And still winning ~35 games a year.

You lost me there. why would we not have room to sign Carmelo in 2011 or CP3 in 2012? Jeffries and Curry's contract would have expired.

Not after re-signing Lee, Al, maybe even Duhon... extending Chandler, having two draft picks at Jordan Hill type salary. No, we wouldn't have the room to sign a 2012 max FA. You also have to remember if we go that route we'll see more Duhon-Like signings to patch up the holes in the roster.

It just seems like it was going to be a continuation of the mediocre path we were on.

So again I fully support the new path we're risking here.

We disagree on the trade, which is cool. But if the Knicks resign Al and/or Duhon, I will be done with the team until management changes, I will go root for the Kings or the Thunder.

WindsorPl wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

WindsorPl wrote:

Cosmic wrote:So now here we are in 2012.

Hill, Lee, Chandler, Gallo, Douglas, 2011 choice, 2012 choice (both of which are average players at best). And no room to sign any good players. And still winning ~35 games a year.

You lost me there. why would we not have room to sign Carmelo in 2011 or CP3 in 2012? Jeffries and Curry's contract would have expired.

Not after re-signing Lee, Al, maybe even Duhon... extending Chandler, having two draft picks at Jordan Hill type salary. No, we wouldn't have the room to sign a 2012 max FA. You also have to remember if we go that route we'll see more Duhon-Like signings to patch up the holes in the roster.

It just seems like it was going to be a continuation of the mediocre path we were on.

So again I fully support the new path we're risking here.

We disagree on the trade, which is cool. But if the Knicks resign Al and/or Duhon, I will be done with the team until management changes, I will go root for the Kings or the Thunder.

I think I'd be done with basketball in general....but I'm prepared for that possibility. However we do have John Gabriel, again the man who tore down the Magic to make room for Duncan and Hill (it became TMac and Hill) and then continued to keep the payroll stripped to try to go after Duncan again in 2003.

So, that guy in Walshs or Houstons ears....might be able to tell them "Hey, we failed in 2010, but don't load up on crap, let's just lay low and try again in 2011".

But who knows. That's why I call it a topic for the summer.

We completed the tear down sans McCurry.

Now we wait until we start building.

raven wrote:This is exactly what people need to take a few steps back and understand why we need a brutal hand to tear everything down and start anew.

tearing down & starting over does not entail giving up future draft picks... freeing up cap space in that manner is for 1 goal & 1 goal only, to sign an impact FA... starting over would be building back through the draft & letting bad contracts expire... i'm not saying 1 plan is better than the other, just stating the differences in those 2 lines of thinking.