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Wizards. If they get blown up. Caron Butler > Joe Johnson?
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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1/2/2010  3:07 PM
Now that we're almost all done getting our panties in a bunch about Nate and MDA...

The Wizards may possibly get blown up this season..

IF we whiff on Lebron/Wade/Bosh

Would you rather max Joe Johnson out or

Pay Butler $10M in 2010-2011 and either resign him to a shortish deal or go for a 2011 free agent.

Trade machine wizards...make it work

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
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TheGame
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1/2/2010  3:24 PM
Johnson is better than Butler, but Butler is a good player who I would love on this team. However, we really need a SG and Johnson fits that role better. If you could get Butler for $10 mil v. having to pay Johnson $17 mil, it is a tough decision, but I go with Johnson.
Trust the Process
TMS
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1/2/2010  3:42 PM
i think i'd rather have Butler in this scenario, he's a better defender than JJ & not that far off in scoring ability either... he's not as versatile as Johnson is on offense, but i like Butler's all around game on both ends of the floor... plus he brings some of that nastiness factor that i would like to bring back to the Knicks... he don't back down from nobody... trading for Butler would still allow us to sign a max FA this summer, so u could feasibly still target Lebron or Bosh... i think i'd rather re-sign Lee over trading expirings for Butler tho... Chandler's doing a good enough job at the 2 & 3 to hold the fort for a season even if we miss out on Lebron or Wade.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
misterearl
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1/2/2010  3:45 PM
Neither

Joe Johnson is a poor passer and suspect defender.

Caron Butler is not a lead guard or a center

1 - who replaces Chris Duhon as the lead guard?

2 - who replaces Jared Jeffries defensive ability and brings some scoring to the offensive party so the Knicks don't play 4 on 5?

once a knick always a knick
TMS
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1/2/2010  3:57 PM
2 - who replaces Jared Jeffries defensive ability and brings some scoring to the offensive party so the Knicks don't play 4 on 5?

Butler is as good a defender as Fishlips & has had back to back 20 ppg seasons in the recent past.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TheGame
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1/2/2010  4:00 PM
misterearl wrote:Neither

Joe Johnson is a poor passer and suspect defender.

Caron Butler is not a lead guard or a center

1 - who replaces Chris Duhon as the lead guard?

2 - who replaces Jared Jeffries defensive ability and brings some scoring to the offensive party so the Knicks don't play 4 on 5?

Mistereal,

I think you have OD'd on the koolaid. "who replaces Chris Duhon as the lead guard?" Are you serious? You must be joking. You honestly believe that Joe Johnson could not do as good a job as Duhon at running the point. The only reason Johnson does not run the point in Atlanta is because they need him to score. The guy is a solid passer and I wager a better defender than Duhon. Just because he could not guard Nate last night, don't think that the guy cannot defend. Not that we would bring Johnson in to run the point, he is a SG, but if we did bring him in to run the point, I am fairly confident he would do a better job than Duhon.

Trust the Process
misterearl
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1/2/2010  4:06 PM
TheGame - I OD on kool-ade every afternoon after a thrilling Knicks win on the road against a quality team. So sue me.

Joe Johnson is not a primary option to complete the skill set. He is not a leader. Period.

once a knick always a knick
EnySpree
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1/2/2010  4:27 PM
Wilson Chandler has been excellent ever since he went back to shooting guard...I don't think that has been mentioned here yet. He got 24 and 17 rebounds...MDA switches him around alot but starting at the 2 he has been very good since the switch. Joe Johnson is still better than Wilson but only cuz Wilson has yet to get the confidence to take over when he needs to. Confidence/assertiveness is Wilson's biggest flaw.

Anyway, I've said Joe Johnson seems like the obvious choice to become a Knick, but I'm souring on that notion. I'd rather keep the money and continue to play Wilson at the 2. Wilson just has to maintain his confidence.

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simrud
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1/2/2010  8:58 PM
Johnson seems like a 3rd option type of player, not a lead guard. He would be a nice compliment to the max FA, but I do not believe he is a max player himself.

Butler is another 3rd option type of player. Nice player sure, but not a priority.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Nalod
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1/4/2010  10:38 AM
Give Wilson two more years and he could be in league of Caron Butler.
Silverfuel
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1/4/2010  12:18 PM
Nalod wrote:Give Wilson two more years and he could be in league of Caron Butler.

I agree. He has the potential. I can wait two year to see how far he can go.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Knixkik
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1/4/2010  1:08 PM
My question for all of you is, right now would you trade Jeffries, Chandler, and Hill to Wash for Butler? It seems like a lot to trade, and maybe it could get done with something less in place of Hill, but Butler would add instant credibility and a 2-way borderline all-star to this team for free agents to be attracted to. Could you imagine a lineup that included LeBron, Gallo, Lee, and Butler? Also, if you wanted to extend a trade between Wash and NY, Jeffries, Chandler, Hill, and Hughes for Butler, Mike Miller, and Mike James would be pretty fair. I'm still on the fence about whether i would deal 2 prospects like this or not, but finding a way to get Butler would be pretty beneficial to us.
tkf
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1/4/2010  1:30 PM
misterearl wrote:TheGame - I OD on kool-ade every afternoon after a thrilling Knicks win on the road against a quality team. So sue me.

Joe Johnson is not a primary option to complete the skill set. He is not a leader. Period.

Here in Atlanta, the hawks fans hate JJ's passive attitude. they feel he dissapears in the playoffs and he is not a leader.. Although I like Joe a lot, I can see their point to some degree..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
JCHAN
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1/4/2010  1:37 PM
100% right about Wilson Chandler. He makes Butler redundant and is much cheaper. Pass on both JJ and Caron. We have a nice team already and we can lure 2011 free agents if 2010 doesn't work out.
GodSaveTheKnicks
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1/4/2010  3:05 PM
misterearl wrote:Neither

Joe Johnson is a poor passer and suspect defender.

Caron Butler is not a lead guard or a center

1 - who replaces Chris Duhon as the lead guard?

2 - who replaces Jared Jeffries defensive ability and brings some scoring to the offensive party so the Knicks don't play 4 on 5?

Who falls under your definition of a lead guard that we have a chance of signing this offseason? What exactly is your defintion of a lead guard? I gotta say I think Joe Johnson can fill Chris Duhon's giant shoes...

If we fail to get Bron/Wade/Bosh it seems you're saying that you would rather not pay the market rate for Johnson. I might be in agreement with you about that though Joe Johnson is better than any Knick in recent memory.

Would the heads of everyone on this board not explode if we don't come away from this offseason with SOMEONE big name?

Or is the plan

Plan A: Lebron/Wade
Plan B: Keep the cap space, wait till next offseason?

No problem with shooting down ideas...but even better to suggest some sort of alternative plan.

Yours seems to involve keeping Jefferies and...?

Resign Lee..keep the leftover cap space or find some cheap replacements till Curry/Jefferies come off the books after next season?

None of these are bad ideas IMHO.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
Panos
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1/4/2010  3:21 PM
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:
misterearl wrote:Neither

Joe Johnson is a poor passer and suspect defender.

Caron Butler is not a lead guard or a center

1 - who replaces Chris Duhon as the lead guard?

2 - who replaces Jared Jeffries defensive ability and brings some scoring to the offensive party so the Knicks don't play 4 on 5?

Who falls under your definition of a lead guard that we have a chance of signing this offseason? What exactly is your defintion of a lead guard? I gotta say I think Joe Johnson can fill Chris Duhon's giant shoes...

If we fail to get Bron/Wade/Bosh it seems you're saying that you would rather not pay the market rate for Johnson. I might be in agreement with you about that though Joe Johnson is better than any Knick in recent memory.

Would the heads of everyone on this board not explode if we don't come away from this offseason with SOMEONE big name?

Or is the plan

Plan A: Lebron/Wade
Plan B: Keep the cap space, wait till next offseason?

No problem with shooting down ideas...but even better to suggest some sort of alternative plan.

Yours seems to involve keeping Jefferies and...?

Resign Lee..keep the leftover cap space or find some cheap replacements till Curry/Jefferies come off the books after next season?

None of these are bad ideas IMHO.


While I would be disappointed if we didn't get Lebron or Wade (and I believe them both to be long shots)
I would rather not overpay for non-franchise talent then get saddled with bad contracts.
I think the plan going forward is to have guys that get paid what they are worth to other GMs
as well as to our team, so that we have the flexibility to trade them when we need to.
I'd rather have a flexible mediocre roster than an overpaid one.
Knixkik
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1/4/2010  3:26 PM
Joe Johnson is making himself appear as if he is a franchise level talent. He's no LeBron, but he is a soild backup plan and a nice fit for us if LBJ doesn't work out because he has played for MDA before, he can control the game so we don't need a great PG right away, he can shoot, and he's doing a great job leading atlanta. I would be very content with him as a backup option this summer. Adding him to this team instantly makes you a deep playoff team.
GodSaveTheKnicks
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1/4/2010  3:52 PM
Knixkik: Would you be content with Joe Johnson at $15 Million + for 5 years? He's 28 now and would be 33, which I guess isn't super old.

Panos:

I'd rather have a flexible mediocre roster than an overpaid one.

Hell yes! A bubble playoff team with flexibility and tradeable players with reasonable contracts (ex: Marc Gasol for $3M) would be much easier to root for as a fan than a 1st round exit team that's maxed out.

All of us on this board have witnessed the unseemly combination of following a team that has had one if not THE highest payrolls with no chance at all of even being respectable for how many years now.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
Knixkik
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1/4/2010  5:32 PM
GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Knixkik: Would you be content with Joe Johnson at $15 Million + for 5 years? He's 28 now and would be 33, which I guess isn't super old.

Panos:

I'd rather have a flexible mediocre roster than an overpaid one.

Hell yes! A bubble playoff team with flexibility and tradeable players with reasonable contracts (ex: Marc Gasol for $3M) would be much easier to root for as a fan than a 1st round exit team that's maxed out.

All of us on this board have witnessed the unseemly combination of following a team that has had one if not THE highest payrolls with no chance at all of even being respectable for how many years now.

I think 15 million for 5 years is a fair offer for Johnson. He's not quite max, but a top-15 player in the league no doubt. And he should still be good until 33. This is the perfect age to get a player for one final large contract.

When arguing about who is and isn't max players in the league, i believe the top 10 in the league are max players and the next 10 are 14-15 million per year players. Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Melo, Duncan, Garnett, Paul, Deron Williams, Dwight, and Dirk are max players where Bosh, Amare, Johnson, Durant, Roy, Nash, Gasol, Yao, Parker, and Billups are players who deserve 14-15 million per year, Lee is moving into the top 30 at best or top 40 at worst in the league and deserves between 10-12 per year at this point.
Knixkik
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1/4/2010  5:36 PM
I forgot about Pierce so throw him in the top-20 probably in place of Yao at this point.
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Wizards. If they get blown up. Caron Butler > Joe Johnson?
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