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Insider 12/30 - Starting over is Thomas' last resort
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martin
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12/30/2003  9:59 AM
Starting over is Thomas' last resort
by chad

Last week, upon word that Isiah Thomas had taken over as president of the Knicks, Insider's advice was simple -- burn the entire team down.

Apparently, we weren't the only ones telling Thomas the obvious. Thomas told reporters this weekend that he talked to four NBA people whom he respects, and all gave him the same advice. "They are all in agreement that the best way to do it is to blow it up," Thomas told the N.Y. Times. "Everyone I've talked to about this situation has given me the advice to start all over and get under the salary cap" and get worse before getting better.

Why such a dour prediction? Because the Knicks aren't close to making the Finals with the group they have. The guys who aren't contributing anything but take up an enormous amount of cap space -- Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley and Clarence Weatherspoon -- can't be moved. Other players, like Allan Houston and Keith Van Horn, are contributing, but they, too, take up a lot of cap space. Combined, Houston and Van Horn make a little over $29 million this year.

Thomas' only tradeable pieces at the moment are good players with short-term contracts. If he could move guys like Antonio McDyess, Kurt Thomas or Charlie Ward, he might be able to acquire young players and draft picks in return. Thomas then could start rebuilding with a couple of veterans (Houston, Van Horn) and several promising young players (Frank Williams, Michael Sweetney and Maciej Lampe) already in place.

Despite the advice, Thomas claims he won't go in that direction. At least not yet, anyway. "I'm stubborn," Thomas said. "I can't think of an organization that has been saddled with this kind of debt structure that hasn't blown it up and started it all over. I want that to be my last resort, not necessarily my first result."

Thomas already has made a few moves that appear to have paid some dividends. He convinced coach Don Chaney to let Williams take over the point guard duties. Since that decision, the Knicks are 3-0, and Williams is averaging 16.7 ppg and 5 apg on 63 percent shooting from the field.

He cut second-round pick Slavko Vranes, claiming the team doesn't have the patience to develop him. He is working on buying out Weatherspoon's contract; he activated Sweetney (to see what he has); he ripped second-round pick Lampe's work ethic (to light a fire under him, according to Lampe's agent); and he made a hard push to sign troubled forward Eddie Griffin.

Thomas isn't done.

Several NBA GMs told Insider on Monday that Thomas' primary trade bait will be McDyess. McDyess is just now recovering from several knee surgeries. He's averaging 8.9 ppg and 6.7 rpg in 23.7 mpg in 15 games since his return. He's had occasional soreness in his knee, but for the most part he looks like he's playing his way back into shape.


McDyess makes a lot of money ($13.5 million), but he's in the last year of his contract, making him very attractive to a team trying to get further under the luxury tax. Thomas is looking for a younger, long, athletic center or forward in return (that pretty much counts out Zydrunas Ilgauskas for those of you still in Scott Layden mode). The Hawks' Theo Ratliff, the Blazers' Rasheed Wallace, the Mavericks' Antawn Jamison and the Bucks' Tim Thomas are Thomas' most likely targets.

Ratliff ranks second in the league in blocks and has just two years left on his contract, making him an attractive fit. The Hawks are in cap-dump mode right now, and Ratliff is expendable.

To get Wallace, Thomas would have to throw Kurt Thomas or Ward into the deal to make the salaries work. The Blazers are desperate to move Wallace but won't take back anything that hurts their cap long term. Would James Dolan, who claims he wanted to clean up the Knicks, really take on Wallace?



Jamison is an interesting option. He's locked into a long-term deal and may duplicate what Van Horn does on the court, but Thomas is a fan. The Mavs would insist on getting the draft rights to young point guard Milos Vujanic as part of any deal for Jamison.

Tim Thomas is the most questionable of the group. He's never quite fit into a position with the Bucks, though he is putting up the best numbers of his career this season. The problem for the Knicks is that he's locked in for two more seasons at numbers he just doesn't merit. Moving Thomas for McDyess would put the Bucks well under the cap for next season.

Isiah also is willing to trade Ward now that Williams looks ready to take over, though he's just as willing to cut him by Jan. 15 and get $4 million in cap relief for the team.

Big trades like these don't happen overnight, and most GMs think nothing will happen until next week at the earliest. Thomas is still trying to get a feel for how his players are valued around the league. He's still smarting over the Nets landing Griffin and vows that his most important task is changing the image of the franchise.

"We've got to get our franchise back to the point where players want to come play for the New York Knicks and don't give it a second thought," Thomas told the Times. "There was a time when we would have gotten the phone call, 'Can we come play for you,' as opposed to us having to search and find and beat (the bushes). We've got to get ourselves back to the point as a franchise where people want to come here and play and see this and view this as a very good situation, and that's what we're working on."

Around the League
Knicks chasing Leon? In the meantime, Isiah Thomas is looking under rocks for forgotten players who could help his team. The word out of New York is that Isiah is on the verge of signing the only free agent even more messed up than Eddie Griffin -- Leon Smith -- to a 10-day contract. Smith, a 23-year-old, 6-10, athletic big man, has been playing for the Gary Steelheads in the CBA (14.4 ppg, 10.1 rpg).

Given Smith's history -- he once swallowed a bottle of aspirin, painted his face green, and told police he was an Indian fighting Columbus -- you think Isiah may be reaching a little bit with this one? Makes you wonder if Dennis Rodman and Roy Tarpley aren't far behind.

# Artest on the block? One popular theory floating around the league has Thomas doing everything in his power to get his hands on some of his former Pacers -- mainly Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest and Jamaal Tinsley. O'Neal is untouchable. Artest was believed to be as well, but his questionable behavior is raising eyebrows again, and there's talk Rick Carlisle might be happier with Artest playing somewhere else.


Artest was benched for the second half of Saturday night's loss to the Nets for what Carlisle called "conduct detrimental to winning." Artest responded by "sleeping in" for Monday's shoot around. Artest met with Carlisle, Donnie Walsh and Larry Bird on Monday to get the situation under control.

After the meeting, Carlisle and Artest both claimed the incident was behind them, and Carlisle did his best to quash the trade rumors swirling around Artest.

"I think Ron's here. I think Ron's here for the year. I'll put it that way," Carlisle told the Indianapolis Star. "He's too valuable a player. He's an essential part to what we're doing. Much of our system is built around his abilities at both ends of the court. So I don't see us trading him. But I'm not the official word on that. You'd have to talk to Larry Bird or Donnie Walsh. My feeling would be no, and I think we pretty much told him that today."

The problem Thomas faces, if he wants Artest and Tinsley, is coming up with a trade package the Pacers would bite on. Artest and Tinsley are probably available, but they'd come at a high price. Putting together a package of Charlie Ward or Kurt Thomas and Frank Williams won't be enough to get either one.
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Bobby
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12/30/2003  10:32 AM
"We've got to get our franchise back to the point where players want to come play for the New York Knicks and don't give it a second thought," Thomas told the Times

That's Vision! Now build this team from within
"Like they always say, New York is the Mecca of basketball,"I read that in Michael Jordan books my whole life and I played here in the Big East tournament, so it's always fun to play in the Mecca of basketball."---Rip Hamilton
playa2
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12/30/2003  11:11 AM
Bobby I agree!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
Nalod
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12/30/2003  11:21 AM
Given Smith's history -- he once swallowed a bottle of aspirin, painted his face green, and told police he was an Indian fighting Columbus --

Just Keep Leon out of town on Columbus day!

thomas cannot trade milos until he has seen for his own eyes what he can do.

If he can get Tinsley here and keep frank, then perhaps then.

Kinda suck if Milos turned out great and Laydog was right about him. Or at least we can say he did a few good things.

Kudos to Dolan for righting a ship gone wrong. I think there was a big riff between Chaney and Laydog, and once again, the coach stays and the GM gets the boot!
playa2
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12/30/2003  11:29 AM
Nalod VERY INTRESTING Hmmmm
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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12/30/2003  11:37 AM
I would love to see Ron Artest on the Knicks. He's a New Yorker and definitely has a chip on his shoulder.

Zeke's gonna make the Knicks into Bad Boys 2004!

Imagine if we get Artest, Sheed AND sign Leon Smith...

Having a gulley squad like that winning games in NY would be great. IMO Isaiah would get a group like that focused like he did in Detroit back in the day and Indy recently. We'll have a team with skill AND fire.

Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
playa2
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12/30/2003  12:13 PM
When is the last time gulley ball won a title ? Stop living in the past son, this is the "NEW LOOK KNICKS" NUFF SAID
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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12/30/2003  1:30 PM
Posted by playa2:

When is the last time gulley ball won a title ? Stop living in the past son, this is the "NEW LOOK KNICKS" NUFF SAID

No, this isn't the new look Knicks. I am looking at the future. Zeke's crew in Detriot won 2, and so can we when we get a tougher squad.

Blind as a goddamn bat. Oh man, it's so funny!
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
OldFan
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12/30/2003  1:43 PM
Hardcore -

I can see the getting excited about Artest. He's not only tough but good. Sheed - hasn't proved he's tough - just a head case - Portland hasn't exactly been known for rising to the occasion. Leon Smith - I feel sorry for and hope he turns it around but... he hasn't even proven he's tough enough to play in the league never mind being your kind of player.

I personally think you over rate toughness a little - after all the knicks were could in the 90's cause Ewing had talent. If Ewing didn't they would have sucked. The toughness helped but it isn't the main factor. But getting back to my point even if toughness is all that - Artest is the only guy I think is game tough. Whatever Rasheed gives you in physical toughness he loses in lack of MENTAL toughness.
Nalod
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12/30/2003  1:44 PM
Artest, Sheed and Leon: true heart of a championship. You dishonor the detroit team acomplishment and do not understand the contruction of that team.

Ron Ron needs to grow up a little. If so, It would be nice for him to come. But he needs to take some of that chip off his shoulder.

I can see how beligerent, non authority types whom look to take on the "man" whenever is attractive to you.

Why not just desire real basketball players whom are real champions.

Detroit was not about bashing, being tough was just a part of it, but your glamorizing the whole thing.

Suprised your not calling for anthony mason and Isiah Rider!
Silverfuel
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12/30/2003  1:52 PM
Nalod: Who exactly do u propose we get in here that would be better than Artest? Give me one freaking name that we can possibly get that is the best 2nd option in the NBA outside of the Lakers and Kings. Artest can defend and score in the same night and he USED TO have authority issues but he has it under control this year doesnt he? Ron Artest, today would be the best player on the knicks. He can score on anyone and defend anyone.

How can u compare him to Sheed and Rider? They are class A felons! Convicted of drug use on numerous occasion! they throw towels at their own teammates and curse out each other. Artest might have some issues but he has a greater upside. He can be controlled like he is this year.
Why not just desire real basketball players whom are real champions.
Just give me one name we can get that would be better than Artest and dont even think about Jamal Crawford.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
gunsnewing
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12/30/2003  1:53 PM
what good would Artest do us unless we get rid of houston or KVH
Silverfuel
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12/30/2003  1:53 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Detroit was not about bashing, being tough was just a part of it, but your glamorizing the whole thing.
Where have you seen Ron Artest not being effective while being tough? He has amazing stats as the second guy on that team!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Silverfuel
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12/30/2003  1:55 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

what good would Artest do us unless we get rid of houston or KVH
Are you saying that if we have H2O and KVH we shouldn't get Ron Artest or are you saying if we are getting Artest we should get rid of either KVH or H2O?
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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12/30/2003  2:16 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Artest, Sheed and Leon: true heart of a championship. You dishonor the detroit team acomplishment and do not understand the contruction of that team.
If Isaiah, who knows more about that team that us both, does something like that, the point would be moot.

Ron Ron needs to grow up a little. If so, It would be nice for him to come. But he needs to take some of that chip off his shoulder.
IMO he can keep the chip, but just needs help focusing that energy. Same goes for Sheed.

I can see how beligerent, non authority types whom look to take on the "man" whenever is attractive to you.
It's defined as fearlessness. Yes, fearlessness is attractive to me. It's attractive to Isaiah Thomas, too.

Why not just desire real basketball players whom are real champions.
Artest isn't a real player? He dos no potential to be a champ? Come on.

Detroit was not about bashing, being tough was just a part of it, but your glamorizing the whole thing.
Umm... Hello? Was it me who marketed the hell out of the whole Bad Boys image? NO. It was glamorized by the NBA itself many years ago.

Suprised your not calling for anthony mason and Isiah Rider!
I am for bringing in players who will help the team win. You sound stuck on that "character" madness that Dolan (your name spelled backwards) was on. Plus, the players I mentioned are better that Mase and EZ Rider.

It's about the combo of skill and fire, not being bad for the sake of being bad. I have been saying this years before you were even a thought on this board. Check the archives, son.


[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 12/30/2003 14:25:00]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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12/30/2003  2:19 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by gunsnewing:

what good would Artest do us unless we get rid of houston or KVH
Are you saying that if we have H2O and KVH we shouldn't get Ron Artest or are you saying if we are getting Artest we should get rid of either KVH or H2O?

Getting rid of one of them for Artest is not a problem IMO.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
Silverfuel
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12/30/2003  2:19 PM
good post hardcore.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
playa2
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12/30/2003  4:06 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Artest, Sheed and Leon: true heart of a championship. You dishonor the detroit team acomplishment and do not understand the contruction of that team.

Ron Ron needs to grow up a little. If so, It would be nice for him to come. But he needs to take some of that chip off his shoulder.

I can see how beligerent, non authority types whom look to take on the "man" whenever is attractive to you.

Why not just desire real basketball players whom are real champions.

Detroit was not about bashing, being tough was just a part of it, but your glamorizing the whole thing.

Suprised your not calling for anthony mason and Isiah Rider!


Nalod don't hurt'em he can't help it he's a hard head Hardcore
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
Silverfuel
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12/30/2003  5:22 PM
Anyone know what our chances are of dumping KVH or H2O?

Btw, thanks for posting the insider article martin.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Nalod
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12/30/2003  11:38 PM
Playa, I made my piece with Hardcore. So why you gotta repost my words? Leave my words be, its not yours to back up. Your posts are ok, but then every once in a while you turn into an obnoxious little turd whom really wants a whooping. Some people just love an ass whoopin. Kinda walk into a biker bar and talk shat all ove the place looking for a punch.

I can appreciate your loyalty, but dam boy, leave it alone somtimes.
Insider 12/30 - Starting over is Thomas' last resort

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