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Here's why the "look at the talent" argument doesn't excuse D'antoni's horrible coaching:
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thedpj
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11/14/2009  1:46 PM
A good coach adjusts his style to the talent they have. The fact that D'antoni continues to try to force the issue, is ridiculous. You don't have the talent to have Lee at C, to play Jeffries at C, to let Harrington and Chandler "make quick decisions on the fly". This team needs set plays, needs a coach to tell them what to do, and play a more traditional style. Mike... you're not going to forget SSOL, what's so hard about waiting til you have the talent for it? Did Pat Riley try to force Showtime down the Knicks throats in the 90's? No, he went with what he had, and made Slowtime instead and was SUCCESSFUL. The fact that Mike continually tries to stick a square peg in a round hole is disgusting.
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thedpj
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11/14/2009  1:50 PM
You don't have the talent to have Lee at C, to play Jeffries at C

What I really meant here is that he doesn't have the TYPE of talent where he can go small w/ his big men like he had in Phoenix. I understand that there aren't a lot of other choices to play C.

JohnWallace44
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11/14/2009  1:55 PM
Which style is going to win games for this squad exactly? We're running a trick offense to begin with to make up for a lack of talent.

We have no backcourt and no interior defenders, so... Aside from running iso plays for Nate every time down, I don't know what the answer could be. Can you see these one year players picking up a Triangle offense or Flip Saunders' scheme?

The 7SecOrLess offense requires something these players don't have and for good reason. Confidence.

The GM put a joke team together that was lucky to win as many games as it did lasy year. Its too bad we didn't have this collapse then, because we might have Evans instead of Hill.

Another thing that is missed is that we're not running the coach's offense as is. He says that he doesn't know why Duhon is slowing it down. The players are just amazingly inept.

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
buddapaw
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11/14/2009  1:59 PM
D'Antoni had Steve Nash in Phoenix which cannot be discounted for the lack of success being that he doesn't have a superstar guard to run his SSOL offense. DUbumblesuck is not the answer, he needs to plant his ass on the bench pronto, as soon as he recognizes this we can more forward a bit. There are additional problems, Lee and Harrington trying to do TOO much, this is a product of a team made up of players trying to get that fat pay check. To me this a lost season and I wont be watching much, the put all your eggs in basket philosophy never works.
"Low Percentage Shots r US, these are our Knicks" "NY KNICKS the cure for basketball fanatic"
McK1
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11/14/2009  2:06 PM
"We're a much better team than that," said Chris Duhon, who has been disastrous. "It all comes down to us fighting and competing. I'm probably the main culprit. We can't worry about what happens on the other end offensively. We're not competing. We're letting everything bother us, every little turnover, every missed shot. I'm the main culprit and I take full responsibility."

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/warriors_drop_to_an_all_time_worst_PLBMpDF6EWDp6Nka2MyGIN#ixzz0WrVxOoJf

duhon is begging to be benched...probably begging to be traded as well.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Moonangie
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11/14/2009  2:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/14/2009  2:36 PM
JohnWallace44 wrote:Which style is going to win games for this squad exactly? We're running a trick offense to begin with to make up for a lack of talent.

We have no backcourt and no interior defenders, so... Aside from running iso plays for Nate every time down, I don't know what the answer could be. Can you see these one year players picking up a Triangle offense or Flip Saunders' scheme?

The 7SecOrLess offense requires something these players don't have and for good reason. Confidence.

The GM put a joke team together that was lucky to win as many games as it did lasy year. Its too bad we didn't have this collapse then, because we might have Evans instead of Hill.

Another thing that is missed is that we're not running the coach's offense as is. He says that he doesn't know why Duhon is slowing it down. The players are just amazingly inept.

DW is currently in the dismantling stage of the Knicks. He has some solid picks among the youngsters, potentially a superstar in Gallo. Even Hill could pan out, time will tell. But a nucleus is there.

This summer marks the transition from the dismantling stage to the building stage when we add serious talent. In the next two off-seasons we gain the talent needed for MDA's system. Better that the talent we're keeping be familiar with it than to modify our system this year to accommodate the ill-equipped team we have. It's painful to watch, but it's in the interest of long-term rebuilding to hold our tack and not change course.

The one year rental players (e.g., Hughes, N8, Lee, Duhon, AH) don't have a vested interest in this system as they won't be in it after this year. Possibly one of them gets retained on a modest and brief contract (read MLE or less, probably Al) to shore up our gaps, but for the most part they are auditioning for their next team. It's very unprofessional to play such schlocky ball right now, but that appears to be where it's (still) at with these guys.

They have showed signs of life. I've even seen hustle and defensive tenacity. But they are not going to become a good team by changing the scheme. There are too many guys not invested, not trying to win. There are too many non-playing distractions about the direction of the team and the looming deal for a franchise player hanging over the Knicks. Must be hard to get that "buy in" from the players. What's DW and MDA supposed to do about that?

I am ready to extend patience to this management group to get us out of the deep rut the Dolans have led us into. I have abundant hope that the patriarch finally pulled back the reins on Jimmy or the kid decided he was incompetent and got out of the way. It's clear to me that DW and MDA represent a solid break with the past and a new, promising direction for the Knicks. They are not going to mess up reputations or careers by letting an idiot like Jimmy interfere. Losing sucks, but it's tolerable so long as we remain headed down the correct path.

Here's a thought: Give Oakley the Asst. Coach of Defensive Tenacity job and have him come in here and wake these slouchers up a bit. They are so lame on interior defense that it's laughable. That's not on MDA's lap, these guys are not even trying. The guys down low have how many fouls to give per game? They need to use a foul or two to send a message about the painted area in front of the hoop. It hurts to watch guys like David Lee putting down the Welcome Mat and sweeping off the leaves. I am surprised he doesn't have hot cocoa made for his guests. Maybe all those millions act to shrivel up their sacks and take away their pride. We need a guy to step in and tell them where it's really at.

CrushAlot
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11/14/2009  5:24 PM
I like the Oakley idea but I guarantee D'Antoni wouldn't go for it. He very well might be in Phoenix or Chicago if he were willing to acknowledge that defense is an important part of the game and needs to be coached also.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
JohnWallace44
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11/14/2009  6:36 PM
I've seen hustle too, but it's like watching your little brother try hard against you. It doesn't matter. These guys are much smaller than the competition, and smaller usually means quicker and more skilled, but not in our case, so they're gettting swamped every game. Not a surprise.

Walsh doesn't give a damn about the fans. People should stop going to games as a logical response. 2010 is BS excuse. There's nothing stopping anyone from putting together basic skills at the key positions for this system.

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
CrushAlot
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11/14/2009  6:45 PM
The Knicks play small but I wouldn't say that they are undersized. The coach puts out a lineup with an undersized center and shooting guard but that is his choice. Remember Boris Diaw was a center in Phoenix under D'Antoni.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
JohnWallace44
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11/14/2009  7:25 PM
Crush... come on bro... they're not undersized?

Duhon... undersized and terrible (possibly even throwing games based on not taking open layups)
Douglas... very undersized
Gallo... Italian
Chandler... very undersized
Lee... very undersized

How is that lineup his choice? Darko's been injured, and there's no other option to go with in the backcourt. Sounds like the GM's fault to me.

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
orangeblobman
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Nauru
11/14/2009  8:09 PM
haha, 'italian'
WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
thedpj
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11/16/2009  10:22 AM
This is the same savant, mind you — given a training camp, an exhibition season and many of the players on board from the end of last season — who even now can’t decipher regulars from irregulars. This is the same savant who coaches the same today as he did in Phoenix with Steve Nash masterminding a show of shooting stars (Does a jockey ride every horse the same way?). This is the same savant who has yet to demonstrate a dash of defensive discrimination outside an occasional zone; and can’t, or is unwilling, to illuminate why the Knicks have looked so lifeless so often during their 1-9 staggering start.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/zombies_getting_too_much_playing_JIA1rG4JFtJu4X914syo4K#ixzz0X2JE5KYR

DurzoBlint
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11/18/2009  11:07 AM
There are so many things wrong with D'AnDummies coaching. His nonsensical substitution patterns drive me nuts. Someone needs to let him know that timeouts can also be used to break the opposing teams momentum. Instead of watching a team run off ten or more unanswered points, you call a time out to break their momentum.

Also you don't wait till Lee's man has totally emasculated him before putting Darko in.
You don't watch Horford score 10 strait points and dunk with ballz in face before you take him out. You don't allow your point guard to aimlessly run along the 3pt line like he's has a phobia against driving into the paint.

You tell your guards either get Gallo involved or you sit. You tell Gallo to move without the ball instead of turning into captain obvious always camping out at the 3pt line.

It like Mike gives just tells them go out and act like your on the play ground. But then again, if guys played like this in the parks, no one would ever pick them for their squad.

Joke of the day....Mike said Duhon was just in a funk and they needed him to get back to form. Hey, even crap has a form.

the fact that you can't even have an unrelated thread without some tool here bringing him up make me think that rational minds are few and far between. Bunch of emotionally weak, angst riddled people. I mean, how many times can you argue the same shyt
DrAlphaeus
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11/18/2009  11:19 AM
McK1 wrote:
"We're a much better team than that," said Chris Duhon, who has been disastrous. "It all comes down to us fighting and competing. I'm probably the main culprit. We can't worry about what happens on the other end offensively. We're not competing. We're letting everything bother us, every little turnover, every missed shot. I'm the main culprit and I take full responsibility."

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/warriors_drop_to_an_all_time_worst_PLBMpDF6EWDp6Nka2MyGIN#ixzz0WrVxOoJf

duhon is begging to be benched...probably begging to be traded as well.

His play definitely is begging for that. With his words he's trying to show leadership since he's the captain. The team sure looks like it is following the guy right now, unfortunately. You see Walsh, D'Antoni & Duhon all taking turns saying "mea culpa" for this start.

Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
fishmike
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11/18/2009  11:38 AM
JohnWallace44 wrote:Which style is going to win games for this squad exactly?
not much else to say beside this right? This isnt a good team. Changing systems isnt going to help.

I think last year MDA showed any talented player can fit into this system. Nobody thought Zach would be effective in this kind of offense, and not only was he effective but we were a winning team with him being a main cog on the offense werent we?

This team just stinks

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nixluva
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11/18/2009  1:35 PM
ANY good coach will get results from good players. Right now MDA's coaching is the least of our problems. What does coaching have to do with what Duhon isn't doing out there? For that matter why did MDA's teams in PHX play decent defense if he ignores it so much? PHX was always right around the middle of the league in defense. Not lower half of the league last etc., but right in the middle. To show you that he actually was coaching D, compare that with other offensive minded coaches and their teams, like Denver, Golden State Wash Wizards. During the same time period MDA was in PHX those other teams were also putting up big scoring numbers, but unlike his team, those teams didn't defend. PHX 110.2 ppg, GS 106.6, Den 105.4 and Wash 104.3. These were the top scoring teams in 2006-07. The thing is that while PHX only allowed 18.9 asts per game, GS allowed 24.7, Den 24.5 and Wash 23.7. PHX had a Point DIfferential of +7.3 2nd best in the league, while Den was +1.7, GS -0.3 and Wash -0.3.

Mike's plan is always to keep the tempo high and not to foul, which slows the game down, but more importantly teams shoot a much higher % at the FT line than in any other phase of the game. So it's actually better not to foul and give teams 75% shooting. It's better to have teams going one on one and not getting points by assists. It's not a perfect system of defense for every team, but for the way MDA wants to play it works. Just cuz our guys aren't defending doesn't mean he's not coaching it. In fact he's focused on that more than anything this year. Every post from the media states that he's coaching defense at every practice. Larry Brown was coaching D too, but...

s3231
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11/18/2009  1:46 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/18/2009  1:47 PM
Totally agree with everyone that says we aren't going to win no matter what the system is. No system is going to magically help Chandler and Duhon make more shots. If you watch the games, you can tell that the players aren't even running the SSOL offense right now (Walsh has also come out and said the same thing). I don't know how you can blame D'Antoni if they aren't even running his offense.

Don't get me wrong, I think D'Antoni has made mistakes this season and I'm praying that he finally makes his players get Gallo more involved, however, we aren't 1-9 this season because of coaching alone.

You also have to keep in mind, why would D'Antoni change his offense this season only to have to change it back to SSOL when we get the necessary players (which could happen as early as next season)? Don't you think that would confuse the young guys (i.e. Gallo, Hill, Douglas, Chandler) who are going to be here more than one season?

If D'Antoni had the players to win this season, I would like to think that he would change his offense if necessary. Truth is, we don't have the players to get in the playoffs so it makes no sense to change anything.

"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
TMS
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11/18/2009  2:08 PM
i think MDA deserves some blame here... when u have guys like Fishlips launching up 3's there's a problem... u gotta utilize players according to their strengths, not their weaknesses... guys like Fishlips & Lee need to be planted underneath the basket, period... this team is not penetrating to the hole anyway so any excuses about clogging up the lane are moot... that problem's gonna be there anyway once Eddy Curry gets into the action... are we gonna start seeing Curry launching up perimeter J's too now?
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djsunyc
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11/18/2009  2:14 PM
winning is not the crux of this argument - it doesn't have enough talent to win.

but being competetive? that's another story.

nixluva
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11/18/2009  2:26 PM
djsunyc wrote:winning is not the crux of this argument - it doesn't have enough talent to win.

but being competetive? that's another story.


That's the part the really bothers me. If i'd blame MDA for anything its that the team has been SO bad in stretches. Think about it. It's usually 1 really awful qtr that does us in. Sometimes its the whole game, but many of these games we lost in a bad stretch of 1 qtr. I think that is where the lack of talent issue pops up. If we don't get 100% from every player this team just doesn't have enough to win. If we do get everyone playing up to their ability then I think this team can win some games. We just have had that happen yet this year. I do believe that this is gonna turn around tho. It's only a matter of time before some of these guys that are slumping start to hit.
Here's why the "look at the talent" argument doesn't excuse D'antoni's horrible coaching:

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