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Put Jordan Hill in center position at least in Defensive set up in place of David "Flat" Lee
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samuraiknicks
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11/14/2009  7:01 AM
If we continuously put David Flat Lee in center position in defensive end, we will contiunously see more than 50% field goal percentage from opponents. Now the game plan for all opponents' coach must be very simple. "Attack the basket, David Flat Lee is not going to challenge you, he will stand there and watch your shot going in". Somehow David Flat Lee lost quickness and timing, which is essential part of his defence and rebounding to compensate his hight disadvantage.
On the other hand, Jordan Hill in Warriors game showed that he is long and active. He challenge a lot of shots from Warriors. Even though he only blocked one shot statisclly, he seems to have fighting spirit and phisical ability to chase and block more shots. We desperately need such a player in the middle with more focus on defence.
In addition, I really hope Eddy Curry recover jumping ability to protect the paint area, though I have much less expectation comparing with that to Hill.
AUTOADVERT
TheGame
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11/14/2009  7:35 AM
I have been saying this for the past week. Play Hill. We are getting killed on defense. In fact, that really is the problem with this team. We simply cannot stop anyone from scoring, and we don't run our offense efficiently enough to keep up. Teams should not be shooting 50-55% from the field every game. Let Hill and TD play and see if they can create some stops.
Trust the Process
Redcru
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11/14/2009  8:06 AM
How much do we think it is Lee just being passive and/or undersized....vs....how much do we think that Lee is worried about getting in foul-trouble?
I think that the potential foul-trouble is a big issue---if Lee bangs and gets fouls, then Lee loses minutes, then Lee loses stats, then Lee loses $$$.

Just a thought

samuraiknicks
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11/14/2009  8:26 AM
Redcru wrote:How much do we think it is Lee just being passive and/or undersized....vs....how much do we think that Lee is worried about getting in foul-trouble?
I think that the potential foul-trouble is a big issue---if Lee bangs and gets fouls, then Lee loses minutes, then Lee loses stats, then Lee loses $$$.

Just a thought

I think Lee seems to be more focus on his stat line than team this year. He should have given hard foul against opponent point guard, but instead he always avoid contact and foul. If he plays in that way, there is no point for him to stay in the paint to protect our goal.

ItalianStallion
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11/14/2009  10:00 AM
I'm a big fan of efficient scoring. Lee gives us that in spades, but even I am just about ready to throw in the towel on him. It's getting a little too painful to watch whoever he's guarding turn into an all star overnight. Plus, he doesn't even help well when someone else gets beat. If it was Yao or Howard abusing him, well there's not much you can do about that because he's really a PF playing out of position. But it's everyone! And some of these guys are not even much bigger than him. They go right past or around him like he's nailed to the floor.

There aren't good stats out there for defense, but I've been trying to find some "objective" measurements. One thing I noticed was that his "Adjusted +/-" (which takes into account that the Knicks are bad and who was on the floor with him) is horrible and had been bad for several years. Since we know he scores effectively and can rebound, that must be telling us how horrid he is defensively that the Knicks do better when he's OFF THE FLOOR!!!!!

There's no way he's getting 12M as a free agent. Every team in the NBA knows he can't place "D" a lick.

(stats available at 82games)

ItalianStallion
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11/14/2009  10:05 AM
By the way, knowing what I know now about SSOL I think I understand why they drafted Hill. I originally thought it was a backup plan in case Lee left. Now I think they intend to try to trade Lee as soon as Hill is ready to take that spot. Hill has a lot left to learn, but he already has more of an outside shot than Lee (which coach D wants from his PF) and he has way more upside defensively. He just has to get over the rookie mistakes, fouls etc... and get better around the basket. I think Lee is gone at the end of the year.
McK1
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11/14/2009  10:08 AM
Mikki Mooore...aka the guy David Lee was responsible for...was invisible offensively the entire game.

HOWEVER,

Azabuke, aka Danilo's man..Ellis, Duhon's man..and Steven Jax, Chandler's man lit the Knicks up

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
TheGame
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11/14/2009  10:18 AM
McK1 wrote:Mikki Mooore...aka the guy David Lee was responsible for...was invisible offensively the entire game.

HOWEVER,

Azabuke, aka Danilo's man..Ellis, Duhon's man..and Steven Jax, Chandler's man lit the Knicks up

McK1,

What you aren't taking into account is that (1) Mikki Moore sucks and (2) a fundamental part of any defense is that the center and PF needs to be able to step up and take a charge, change a shot, or block a shot when the guards are beat. Even if TD and Hughes or Chandler play tough defense and make it hard for their opponent to drive or force the opponent to drive hard where they are close to being out of control, it is on the center usually (or PF sometimes) to step up and get a block or change the shot. If you don't have a center or PF that can do that, then you really have no defense because no perimeter player can keep these guards in front of them all the time. It is the frontcourt's job to intimidate and make the opposing guard reluctant to penetrate. So yeah, those guys you noted scored, but part of the problem was that they had no fear Lee was going to step up and block their shot.

Trust the Process
McK1
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11/14/2009  10:28 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/14/2009  10:28 AM
TheGame wrote:
McK1 wrote:Mikki Mooore...aka the guy David Lee was responsible for...was invisible offensively the entire game.

HOWEVER,

Azabuke, aka Danilo's man..Ellis, Duhon's man..and Steven Jax, Chandler's man lit the Knicks up

McK1,

What you aren't taking into account is that (1) Mikki Moore sucks and (2) a fundamental part of any defense is that the center and PF needs to be able to step up and take a charge, change a shot, or block a shot when the guards are beat. Even if TD and Hughes or Chandler play tough defense and make it hard for their opponent to drive or force the opponent to drive hard where they are close to being out of control, it is on the center usually (or PF sometimes) to step up and get a block or change the shot. If you don't have a center or PF that can do that, then you really have no defense because no perimeter player can keep these guards in front of them all the time. It is the frontcourt's job to intimidate and make the opposing guard reluctant to penetrate. So yeah, those guys you noted scored, but part of the problem was that they had no fear Lee was going to step up and block their shot.

so should david lee be blasted for being something he has never been but is asked to do or should the guy responsible for lineups and making adjustments be the object of ire?

Darko is a very good shotblocker yet he ony gets 5minutes last night and is getting 9 mpg on the season with a couple DNP-CD's mixed in..c'mon

Hill is a leaper, he doesn't get in til GS has put 60 something pts on the board and 40 of em are PIP's.

Lee isn't a shotblocker or intimidator, never has never will be. Why he is being asked to anchor the D speaks more to the INCOMPETENCE of MDA then to the player Lee is.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
TheGame
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11/14/2009  10:36 AM
McK1 wrote:
TheGame wrote:
McK1 wrote:Mikki Mooore...aka the guy David Lee was responsible for...was invisible offensively the entire game.

HOWEVER,

Azabuke, aka Danilo's man..Ellis, Duhon's man..and Steven Jax, Chandler's man lit the Knicks up

McK1,

What you aren't taking into account is that (1) Mikki Moore sucks and (2) a fundamental part of any defense is that the center and PF needs to be able to step up and take a charge, change a shot, or block a shot when the guards are beat. Even if TD and Hughes or Chandler play tough defense and make it hard for their opponent to drive or force the opponent to drive hard where they are close to being out of control, it is on the center usually (or PF sometimes) to step up and get a block or change the shot. If you don't have a center or PF that can do that, then you really have no defense because no perimeter player can keep these guards in front of them all the time. It is the frontcourt's job to intimidate and make the opposing guard reluctant to penetrate. So yeah, those guys you noted scored, but part of the problem was that they had no fear Lee was going to step up and block their shot.

so should david lee be blasted for being something he has never been but is asked to do or should the guy responsible for lineups and making adjustments be the object of ire?

Darko is a very good shotblocker yet he ony gets 5minutes last night and is getting 9 mpg on the season with a couple DNP-CD's mixed in..c'mon

Hill is a leaper, he doesn't get in til GS has put 60 something pts on the board and 40 of em are PIP's.

Lee isn't a shotblocker or intimidator, never has never will be. Why he is being asked to anchor the D speaks more to the INCOMPETENCE of MDA then to the player Lee is.


I don't disagree that Hill and Darko should be getting more minutes, but at the same time, Lee should be putting more effort into his defense. This guy was rated as one of the most athletic guys in his draft class. He needs to hit the weights, build up some mass on his frame, and start dishing out some hard fouls and blocking some shots and stop worrying about foul trouble. That part of it is on Lee. Until he does that, MDA should not be starting him (that part is on MDA).

Trust the Process
Ira
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11/14/2009  10:44 AM
Not having a good defensive big man, makes it hard for the guards and forwards to play their man close. When you have a good shot blocker, you can play your man tight knowing that if you're beat there's someone who will pick him up and challenge his shot.
oohah
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11/14/2009  11:24 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/14/2009  11:25 AM
As usual McK1 is a voice of reason.

I remember a few years ago I was getting killed daily on this board because I was one of the few guys who said that David Lee was a good role player who could rebound and hit layups wonderfully, but could not shoot or play defense. definite bench material.

And as usual I faced an incredible onslaught of insults that I dared to question that Lee was not a top 5 PF in the making.

Now I must spring to his defense again just like when I was the only guy who thought he should be starting (Go back to the LB days). Lee is not terrible. he is what he is. A really good rebounder. One of the best layup artists you have ever seen. A bad defensive player. A poor outside shooter.

Lee is what he is. If David Lee is putting up big numbers for your team, you have a bad team. If Lee can be a bench player, or in a pinch start next to a real big-man stud, he is a nice asset.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Paladin55
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11/14/2009  11:40 AM
McK1 wrote:Mikki Mooore...aka the guy David Lee was responsible for...was invisible offensively the entire game.

HOWEVER,

Azabuke, aka Danilo's man..Ellis, Duhon's man..and Steven Jax, Chandler's man lit the Knicks up

Early in the game watch Lee, who had to cover Azabuke on the outside, get beat off the dribble without a fake. He ends up doing what some of you call the "jazz hands," instead of going for an attempted block. For what it is worth, I thought that Gallo, then guarding Moore, did not recognize the rotation, and he should have come over for a potential block, but Lee showed no tenacity on the play.

The next time down, Ellis blows by Duhon, and Lee, who should have attempted to block the shot, is on the floor watching a foot away, no attempt at a block, while Ellis lays it in.

The next time down, Gallo is sagging low to help in the middle because Chandler's man is driving into the paint with nobody in front of him, the ball is kicked out to Asabuke, Gallo comes running out to help, and Azabuke goes around him (while Gallo is picked off by Jackson) and has a clear path to the basket. Lee is slow to rotate, and attempts a very half-hearted block.

I like Lee, but for a guy who was known as a pretty good leaper, who had nice agility stats at the combine, he is a terrible help defender and shot blocker. He has almost become a purely offensive player and rebounder, with little or no contribution on the defensive end. He really needs a shot blocking C to play with if he is to be utilized properly. I understand he is playing out of position, but that does not excuse his lack of toughness as an interior defender.

There is no reason with his athletic ability that he should not be blocking some shots. Ironically, Gallinari is third on the team win blocks behind Chandler and Jeffries- even Hughes and Harrington have more blocks than Lee.

Time for Hill to start getting significant minutes.

No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Marv
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11/14/2009  11:51 AM
oohah wrote:As usual McK1 is a voice of reason.

I remember a few years ago I was getting killed daily on this board because I was one of the few guys who said that David Lee was a good role player who could rebound and hit layups wonderfully, but could not shoot or play defense. definite bench material.

And as usual I faced an incredible onslaught of insults that I dared to question that Lee was not a top 5 PF in the making.

Now I must spring to his defense again just like when I was the only guy who thought he should be starting (Go back to the LB days). Lee is not terrible. he is what he is. A really good rebounder. One of the best layup artists you have ever seen. A bad defensive player. A poor outside shooter.

Lee is what he is. If David Lee is putting up big numbers for your team, you have a bad team. If Lee can be a bench player, or in a pinch start next to a real big-man stud, he is a nice asset.

oohah

oh that had been david lee you were talking about. i'm sorry - i had always thought you were talking about mo taylor.

McK1
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11/14/2009  11:55 AM
jordan hill doesn't have good instincts defensively either. he will foul out a great deal more times than he will alter block or intimidate
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
ItalianStallion
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11/14/2009  11:59 AM
Lee does need a legitimate shot blocking C to play with to make up for his deficiencies on defense, but that's not going to happen in NY. D'Antoni's offensive system REQUIRES that the PF be a GOOD outside shooter to draw a big man away from the basket so the team can run the pick and roll effectively. He can also then become a shooting option from the outside on that play. Lee still can't hit the broad side of a barn from outside, so he plays the C position. They will rarely use Lee with Milcic or Curry for that reason. Now of course, Duhon is shooting terribly which has more or less killed the pick and roll because the defense can sag off him and Chandler at PF has been very disappointing from the outside so far. So the offense is DOA.

All this suggests to me that Lee is going to be part of a sign and trade later this year (for a SG or PG). He could be a very useful piece in a traditional offensive set as the PF along side a traditional C, but he doesn't fit this teams offense because he has to be used as the C. He's too poor defensively top play that spot even though he scores efficiently and boards well. The "net effect" is unsatisfactory because he's worse on defense than he is good around the basket and rebounding. That's why the Knicks actually play better when he's off the floor. Look at his Adjusted +/-


TMS
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11/14/2009  12:02 PM
at least he tries on defense, something David Lee refuses to do... i do believe it has to do w/him trying to stay out of foul trouble because he's so obsessed with collecting his double doubles... no one can possibly be that bad on defense, not even Marv.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Marv
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11/14/2009  12:07 PM
TMS wrote:at least he tries on defense, something David Lee refuses to do... i do believe it has to do w/him trying to stay out of foul trouble because he's so obsessed with collecting his double doubles... no one can possibly be that bad on defense, not even Marv.

marv's a steel curtain on D. it wasn't fair that i had to check bitty, anyone's gonna get exploited in that situation.

McK1
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11/14/2009  12:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/14/2009  12:10 PM
part of Mike D'antoni's philosphy is that he doesn't want to stop the game with defensive foul calls so he may be INSTRUCTING David Lee not to challenge

that also may be why we don't see Darko or Hill much b/c they instinctively will

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
TMS
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11/14/2009  12:11 PM
i find it hard to believe the coach is telling his player "OK, this is what i want u to do... whenever someone drives to the hole, stand there with your jazz hands up in the air & let him by you so he can get an easy basket."
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Put Jordan Hill in center position at least in Defensive set up in place of David "Flat" Lee

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