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JohnWallace44
Posts: 25119 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 6/14/2005 Member: #910 USA |
11/2/2009 4:08 PM
  
The MaxFA's all bring different attributes, so starting with one indicates a different supporting cast to balance the rest of the roster. There are also 6 other teams with at least $10 million in cap room to compete with. How do we move forward with the core, and add the right pieces to make the Knicks a contender and shut-up posters like me from beefing with Walsh? Alan Hahn:
Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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Finestrg
Posts: 27296 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 1/1/2006 Member: #1069 |
11/2/2009 5:13 PM LAST EDITED: 11/3/2009 1:08 AM
Forgive me, I know this was long-winded and a little too much but you guys know me - every once in awhile I'm due for a rant like this. To me, this should be the plan:
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=32746 In short, I'll recap: Max. contract offer for LeBron and resign David Lee. We'd then be adding that to a young core of Gallo, Chandler, Hill & Douglas, along with Jeffries & Curry (and this is just one reason why I think it's important to play Hill & Douglas right now. They're the future - get them experience right now this way if & when they're asked to play bigger roles next year next to a star-level player, they'll be ready). That would put us right at the cap more or less. I mean that's not terrible right off the bat, year 1 with LeBron, w/o even adding anything else yet -- that's a rotation right there that could win some games with James...I may or may not elect to then use the mid-level exception. We don't necessarily have to. If we did, it would have to be for a damn good player - absolutely no Jared Jeffries or Jerome James-types please. It would have to be for a young player who has had success in the league so far and is flat out worth the $5-6 mil. per...If not, I skip the mid-level entirely next year and conserve that money for the following year where we should have another $15, 16+ million dollars at our disposal if my arithmetic is correct, even if the cap doesn't escalate (which it should). That may be where we get our 2nd all-star. If LeBron ever came, with he & coach D'Antoni in place to recruit, I think the chances are great we get that second big-time piece to come in 2011. My big point in that post the other night was centered on the idea that I think we could explain to LeBron how successful he'd automatically make us just by his presence alone and then what we could do to quickly build around him to make us even better by 2011, only his second year in a Knicks uniform (I'm talking a 50-win team jumping to a 60+ win team). I have faith LeBron would understand the plan and the thought-process and be intrigued by it, because it's true. Back to next year though - two things - (1) I'd look to deal Wilson Chandler for an asset (in fact I'd probably look to get that done this season ASAP before Chandler's poor shooting on occasion decreases his value). I said the other day, Utah desperately needs a wing that can play right now. Almond didn't work out, Harpring may either be retired or is on the verge, extention talks have suddenly broken down between Ronnie Brewer & the Jazz (Brewer's not great anyway) and Kyle Korver and CJ Miles are both out recovering from surgery with no timetable to return. They could definitely use a guy like Wilson Chandler right now. You give me Kosta Koufos, a young skilled center I could build with, and Wes Matthews, an undrafted 2-guard prospect I'd need to plug into the rotation to fill Wilson's spot and I make that trade...If the Jazz refused, I continue to explore other options to trade Chandler until I found something that worked. (2) I'd look to max. out the lower part of the draft next year by acquiring at least 1, hopefully 2 more lower picks anywhere from low 1st round - high 2nd round to fill in some holes. With that I'm looking at the following players that hopefully should be there - I think these guys could be solid rotation players: PGs SG PF CENTER |
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Panos
Posts: 30387 Alba Posts: 3 Joined: 1/6/2004 Member: #520 |
11/2/2009 6:52 PM
orangeblobman wrote:I didn't get to where I am in life by dwelling on the past Where are you? UltimateKnicks.com? |
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TMS
Posts: 60684 Alba Posts: 617 Joined: 5/11/2004 Member: #674 USA |
11/2/2009 6:55 PM
hard to judge from that clip but didn't see him D'ing up on Mayo too much when they went head to head... sorta looks like Jamal/Rondo w/those long arms when he's taking a guy off the dribble.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Finestrg
Posts: 27296 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 1/1/2006 Member: #1069 |
11/2/2009 7:10 PM
TMS wrote:hard to judge from that clip but didn't see him D'ing up on Mayo too much when they went head to head... sorta looks like Jamal/Rondo w/those long arms when he's taking a guy off the dribble. Mayo got the better of him in this game in the 2nd half from what I read but just the fact that he was only in 8th grade and went toe-to-toe with him speaks volumes. That was almost 5 years ago - he established himself as a big-time HS talent since then... |
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orangeblobman
Posts: 27269 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 3/1/2009 Member: #2539 Nauru |
11/2/2009 7:11 PM
Panos wrote:orangeblobman wrote:I didn't get to where I am in life by dwelling on the past i'm in a bunch of places don't worry about it WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
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93BUICK
Posts: 22281 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 10/6/2006 Member: #1175 USA |
11/2/2009 7:18 PM
orangeblobman wrote:Panos wrote:orangeblobman wrote:I didn't get to where I am in life by dwelling on the past It's true! If you are still following the team and reading sites like this, there is nothing, short of your own demise, that is going to throw you off this train.
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JohnWallace44
Posts: 25119 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 6/14/2005 Member: #910 USA |
11/2/2009 11:11 PM
I don't sign Lee or Nate if I'm the Knicks. They are players you add to finish off a roster, not players that you build a team with. That's been the problem with them from day one.
If you sign Bosh, where's he playing? Center? I think we have to get a serious shooting guard that can take you off the dribble, get to the line, and pull up from distance, and that means that you push Gallo and Chandler down to the 3/4 slots. Assuming that LeBron and Wade stay away from the Garden, I never thought I would say this, but I like Joe Johnson because I think he can mix in well with Gallo and set up Chandler in situations where he can thrive. He also plays point forward, so you can have a combo/guard at the PG spot too. If you get Johnson for about $15 mil per, then you're here... PG: _______ - bench: Douglas Point guard is a huge problem now and it will be a huge need in the offseason. Johnson can handle the rock, so at least that helps. PG Solutions Center Solutions Not a lot to choose from here. Some interesting big-man prospects in this draft. Some talented players with checkered backgrounds like Stephenson. One idea would be to trade Chandler for a player like Lowry during this season and then resigning him. I'd be comfortable with TJ Ford for a 1 year deal if he would sign it. I thought Jordan would be a decent prospect before he pulled out of this Summer's draft and Vornado too. Vornado developed a jumper towards the end of last year, and Jordan just needs to work on his motor. Vornado and Terrico White should make some waves this year together. If they play deep into March they may not be available at #32. Terrico is a Tyreke Evans clone and would be a gift if he slid to us. PG: Ford - bench: Douglas I'd try to fill out the roster with Vet-Min guys like Flip Murray, Johan Petro, and Rodney Carney. That roster isn't light-years better than what we have now because we almost cannot sign Lee, Nate, Harrington, Hughes, Duhon and there just isn't enough out there to sign players under the cap and replace it all. The key would be signing Ford to a one year deal. That would set us up for another huge FA season in 2011 with Tony Parker, Thaddeus Young, Prince, and JR Smith. Tough thing is that it's Chandler's walk year. No matter what, we're going to have to depend on our lotto picks becoming big factors, and making good choices with our signings just like any championship team. Unfortunately there are no real shortcuts without a miracle move of Curry. Alan Hahn:
Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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TMS
Posts: 60684 Alba Posts: 617 Joined: 5/11/2004 Member: #674 USA |
11/3/2009 1:39 AM LAST EDITED: 11/3/2009 1:41 AM
JW, i don't sign JJ to a max contract... Bosh is the guy to target... u can play Lee at C & Bosh at PF... w/a big SF like Gallo it gives us a pretty big frontline... u can always sign a role playing C backup to a lesser contract to fill in some minutes if u need to... i don't view JJ as a marquee type player... Bosh is, even tho he's not the ideal "max" type player we all covet, he still holds much more value than a guy like Joe Johnson... for that reason alone he's the guy i'd target if i lose out on Lebron & Wade.
i don't like TJ Ford either, he's way too brittle... unless u can get him for a MLE type deal i don't think he's worth the long term investment personally... i'd rather re-sign D Lee to Boris Diaw type dollars (backloaded if possible to allow for a Bosh signing) & then weigh our options in 2011... Nate is gonna end up walking for nothing unless we can somehow trade him this year... shoulda really traded him last year when we had the chance for a late 1st round pick... he's not the kind of player u can win with IMHO... he'll wow the fans & entertain them but he's just way too high strung & out of control to play a team oriented style game... D Lee for all his pisspoor defense is still a valuable commodity in the 2nd tier non-"star" level of players in the NBA IMO. forget about dumping Curry, that's a lost cause... we're just gonna have to bite the bullet on that one... & guys like Carney, Petro & Flip aren't gonna make much of an effect one way or another... if u can get guys like that on the cheap to fill in roster spots, fine, otherwise it's not worth a long term investment for any of those guys. After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Finestrg
Posts: 27296 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 1/1/2006 Member: #1069 |
11/3/2009 2:39 AM LAST EDITED: 11/3/2009 3:05 AM
JohnWallace44 wrote:I don't sign Lee or Nate if I'm the Knicks. They are players you add to finish off a roster, not players that you build a team with. That's been the problem with them from day one. A lot of interesting ideas JW. Let's go over what you've got here. First off, I'm just not sure I'd give Joe Johnson max. money or close to it to come here. He's a good player but not top-tier imho. For $15 million per, I would need a top-tier guy. He's not even at the 50-win plateau yet with Atlanta and he has a lot of very good young pieces around him. See if he gets his team there this year, though I doubt it...If you switched LeBron and Johnson right now, I bet you'd see the same results for both clubs -- LeBron would win 55-60 games with Atlanta and I betcha Joe Johnson wins ya 45 games in Cleveland even with Shaq. To me that's a big difference in the type of results we're talking about here for max money. If you're gonna add Johnson for that amount of money you better have a team that's assembled already top to bottom, ready to go. We wouldn't even be close, as you've basically indicated above. I just don't know if he's the guy you build a team around like you're saying here. Would Joe Johnson be enough to recruit Melo in 2011??? Or is Johnson/Parker or Johnson/Thad Young really gonna be enough to start making some real noise??? I'm not sure. Both Parker and Young are playing with much better talent than Joe Johnson right now and they're probably not winning a championship any time soon (though you gotta keep an eye on San Antonio - they just added great supplemental pieces in Richard Jefferson, McDyess & DeJuan Blair to the battle-tested core of Duncan, Parker and Manu...maybe San Antonio resurfaces this year out west)... 2nd thing - What would you do with that $8 million left over in your plan? You're saying forget Lee and use that $8 mil. on one of those PGs and one of those centers among other things right? I don't know man. Where would that leave us? I tell you what, I really like Terrico White - guy can really slash and shoot. I just don't think we'd even have a shot at this guy unless we decide to move Chandler for a higher 1st rounder (a possibility, though it looked like we wanted to do something like that this year before the draft and either couldn't or wouldn't depending on what you believe -- either Washington didn't like Chandler enough to part with the 5th pick or Donnie didn't like the deal and got cold feet). I agree with you though on White, he's good but I don't see him slipping that far to us in the 2nd round. Lowry, Ford and Felton are all decent PG options that I like on talent alone (we probably will need a vet presence at the point if we can swing it somehow) but these guys just might want too much money. Are those 3 guys that much better than guys like Collins, Randle, Wise or Greivis Vasquez? I think all of these guys are on a similar level - thing is we'd save money going with a rookie....But hey, they've got NBA experience so maybe they would be worth a look...You probably do want to have a little experience to go with TD at the point for next year... 3rd thing - I guess you could have the same criticism about Bosh as you do about Joe Johnson. Good player but unlike a LeBron James, he's hasn't really elevated his team's play above medocrity so far. That's not all on him though - they just haven't really had good pieces around Bosh since he's been there. Toronto did actually have a good off-season this summer though, so we'll see what Bosh can do this year -- this is the most talent he's been surrounded with so far since he's been in the league (he didn't really get a chance to play with Vince Carter - Carter was traded away shortly after Bosh turned pro). Unless you're LeBron James, it's tough to do it with smoke and mirrors all by yourself....To me there are differences between these two though. For one, Bosh is a good two years younger than Johnson. Second, I think it might be easier to get a good SG w/o going for your lungs than it would be to get a 6'10" 20/10 PF. And with your plan, you get Johnson and then wanna go with either Chandler/Jeffries or Gallo/Jeffries as your PF combination..I don't think that's good enough. For starters, where's the rebounding coming from? If we're gonna part ways with Lee, it's imperative that we start developing Jordan Hill right now to see if he's got what it takes. I think he does but we'll never really know until MDA puts him on the floor and lets him play and play through any mistakes. Otherwise I like the idea of bringing Lee back to be honest with you. He's not a good defender and probably never will be, but he's got energy, he's vastly improved offensively and he's one of the game's top rebounders. I thing if we brought him back and allowed him to play his natural position, he's good value at $7-8 per and a nice guy to have playing with a star. Another PF option is Trevor Booker from Clemson. This guy's an animal that as of right now is projected to go low in some of these early mocks. He's slightly undersized at 6'7" but plays much bigger. Big presence in the paint with ample girth, long arms, and big-time athleticism. Plays great defense too - this guy's a very effective shot-blocker... 4th thing - The veteran center options you brought up are basically all backups. I liked Hilton Armstrong at one point coming out of college but he just hasn't developed at all. I really thought he was gonna be an impact player. I though we'd see something like a much tougher Channing Frye. Instead he's turned into Jared Jeffries. You talked about Jerome Jordan not having a great motor - that's how I feel about Varnado. Moving past the fact that he's a little undersized for both the 4 and the 5 in the NBA (he works hard and is a solid weakside shot-blocker but he's thin & can definitely be muscled by bigger guys), I saw this guy completely run out of gas in the couple of games I've watched him play in last year. And didn't he pass out on the court in an early practice recently?? Scary..Guys like Varnado and Larry Sanders probably have roles in the NBA as defensive specialists but I'd like to see us go after a bigger, more well-rounded center if we can. I like Jerome Jordan a little better myself... Listen, I know the chances of LeBron coming here probably aren't that great so I give you credit for coming up with some interesting plan B options. I just happen to agree with TMS - I think a Bosh in 2010/Melo in 2011 is probably the best plan B I've heard so far.. |
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SupremeCommander
Posts: 34071 Alba Posts: 35 Joined: 4/28/2006 Member: #1127 |
11/3/2009 7:06 AM
TMS wrote:JW, i don't sign JJ to a max contract... Bosh is the guy to target... u can play Lee at C & Bosh at PF... w/a big SF like Gallo it gives us a pretty big frontline... u can always sign a role playing C backup to a lesser contract to fill in some minutes if u need to... i don't view JJ as a marquee type player... Bosh is, even tho he's not the ideal "max" type player we all covet, he still holds much more value than a guy like Joe Johnson... for that reason alone he's the guy i'd target if i lose out on Lebron & Wade. If you go for Joe Johnson, then you don't need a true point... you can go for a Barbosa-type. Which is really why I was so pissed that Minny took Rubio and Jonny Flynn. I agree that you take Bosh over Johnson but at this point beggars can't be choosers. Honestly, I'd circulate a contract to everyone at once and say whoever signs first gets it. Wade, LBJ, and Bosh get max offers and Johnson, Amare, etc. get near-max offers (80 percent or whatever is deemed fair market value). Don't care who, just want someone DLeethal wrote:
Lol Rick needs a safe space
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TheGame
Posts: 26647 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/15/2006 Member: #1154 USA |
11/3/2009 7:13 AM LAST EDITED: 11/3/2009 7:13 AM
TMS wrote:(assuming we miss out on Lebron & Wade, trying to be as realistic as possible) I agree with everything except resigning Lee. If we get Bosh, I would let Lee go in a sign and trade. If we can sign Bosh, keep Hill, and then turn Lee into a SG, we would have a fairly solid team. Keven Martin comes to mind. Eventually, the Kings are going to realize Evans is a SG. They may start looking to move Martin to free up some cap space. A deal of Nate, Lee, and a future draft pick (plus $3 mill) would give them good depth for a team lacking depth. I like trying to trade Chandler for Rubio. I would start working on that deal immediately. Trust the Process
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JohnWallace44
Posts: 25119 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 6/14/2005 Member: #910 USA |
11/3/2009 8:39 AM
Ultimately the key is still trying to get Jeffries out the door. If you do that, then you can take a shot at two max players. Its just a problem that there aren't really point guards or centers in the Free Agent class. Amare is close, but he says he doesn't like playing the pivot.
Paying Johnson, Bosh or Amare less than the Max sounds good. I wouldn't want to give them 16 mil either, but when you've got 6 other teams that can possibly give $11 million at this point. Johnson can get $16 million based on the CBA. Miami, the Nets, the Knicks and the Hawks are the only teams at the moment that can give him that much. Certainly another plan is to just offer half of our cap space to the first two takers. Depending on the cap number, it's possible that we could offer two players about the same that the Clips, Thunder, and Wolves can offer to one player, but much less than their own teams can offer them, so that's a risky move. You'd be depending on players really wanting to come to NYC. I guess my thought is that if you had Johnson (assuming LeBron is not an option) it would be almost impossible to guard two players of that size, skill and shooting ability (paired with Gallo). Imagine if Hughes could hit daggers from anywhere on the floor, post people up and have a much better assist to TO ratio. That would be Johnson. I don't like how Johnson holds the ball, but you'd think Mike D could change that. Alan Hahn:
Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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MS
Posts: 27061 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/28/2004 Member: #724 |
11/3/2009 9:22 AM
It still makes no sense that you just wouldn't move nate at the deadline to get rid of jefferies. that was the biggest mistake of his tenure. We could have had two max free agents or very close to it if he did that. And we could be giving time to those who need it and are part of the future.
The problem is Rondo just got 11 million. He hasn't been an all star and all these guys have huge egos and think they get max money. I'm confused how no one ever brings up the NBA guys in a recession and calls out what they are getting paid. JJ turned down 4 years 60 million this is a guy that can't get his team out of the second round of the playoffs. Under no circumstances do I give Amare a max deal. He is injury prone, has a bad attitude and plays one side of the ball. |