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Why are franchise consistantly bad know matter what
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knicks1248
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9/15/2009  10:36 AM
Sitting watching the bills and the raiders loose games they clearly should have won got me thinking about the knicks.

Despite a change in coaching, front office, culture and talent certain franchise's just find ways to loose games no matter the circumstances. How is it that you change all of the above and still get the same results.

Its completely ridiculous how this happens in so many sports, yet certain franchises hit a bump fix the problem and get right back on course, etc (yankees, spurs,green bay) .

How do you explain this.
ES
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Moonangie
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9/15/2009  10:53 AM
Lack of leadership among the players. That sort of shyte NEVER happened when the Knicks had Oak and Ewing patrolling the locker room. Absence of leadership (and no, Allan Houston was not a leader) leads to apathy and mediocrity.

Yet another reason we MUST pursue a player like Lebron.
nyk4ever
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9/15/2009  10:54 AM
Wow Walsh only gets a year? And to say he didn't change the culture is ridiculous - MSG was a 3ring circus until he came and he's successfully weeded out 90% of the trash. What else do you want.
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BasketballJones
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9/15/2009  10:58 AM
Posted by Moonangie:

Lack of leadership among the players. That sort of shyte NEVER happened when the Knicks had Oak and Ewing patrolling the locker room. Absence of leadership (and no, Allan Houston was not a leader) leads to apathy and mediocrity.

Yet another reason we MUST pursue a player like Lebron.

Right. The absence of a locker-room patrolman is the problem. Alan Houston monitoring the locker room with a video cam just won't cut it.
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arkrud
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9/15/2009  11:53 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Moonangie:

Lack of leadership among the players. That sort of shyte NEVER happened when the Knicks had Oak and Ewing patrolling the locker room. Absence of leadership (and no, Allan Houston was not a leader) leads to apathy and mediocrity.

Yet another reason we MUST pursue a player like Lebron.

Right. The absence of a locker-room patrolman is the problem. Alan Houston monitoring the locker room with a video cam just won't cut it.

Monitoring the track with video cam will be much more interesting...

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
sebstar
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9/15/2009  12:20 PM
Well in baseball there is no hard cap whatsoever so a team like the Yankees can pretty much spend their way out of mistakes as evidenced by the Yankees offseason where they literally brought themselves a new front half of a pitching staff and an MVP candidate.

In the NFL contracts are not guaranteed, so a team can rid themselves of a bad deal with a stroke of a pen. Plus there is so much turnover with teams cutting players and multi-round drafts that an organization can reinvent itself overnight --- even with a hard cap.

In the NBA there is really only one round in the draft that can yield measurable impact on a franchise (although we've gotten lucky in round 2 with Isiah's drafting acumen) and the rules of the league make it almost impossible to get out of bad contracts so rosters remain rather static. I mean we've seemingly spent the whole decade trying to figure out ways to get out of bad deals" Marbury, Zach, Jefferies, Crawford, Curry.

Before it was Eisely, Anderson, Houston, Ewing. Instead of us biting the bullet and letting those contracts run out, we traded most of those deals for longer ones or exacerbated those mistakes which extended our misery. Give Walsh credit because he is not committing to any longer term deals which has been our achilles heel. People around here dont like it because they are used to splashy offseason headlines but the financial flexibility that Walsh is setting up is something we havent seen since 1996. A year where we reinvented ourselves and put together, arguably, our strongest team since the '70s

Walsh is doing the right thing no matter how much people whine about Ramon around here.

[Edited by - sebstar on 09-15-2009 12:59 PM]
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
martin
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9/15/2009  12:29 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Well in baseball there is no hard cap whatsoever so a team like the Yankees can pretty much spend there way out of mistakes as evidenced by the Yankees offseason where they literally brought themselves a new front half of a pitching staff and an MVP candidate.

In the NFL contracts are not guaranteed, so a team can rid themselves of a bad deal with a stroke of a pen. Plus there is so much turnover with teams cutting players and multi-round drafts that an organization can reinvent itself overnight --- even with a hard cap.

In the NBA there is really only one round in the draft that can yield measurable impact on a franchise (although we've gotten lucky in round 2 with Isiah's drafting acumen) and the rules of the league make it almost impossible to get out of bad contracts so rosters remain rather static. I mean we've seemingly spent the whole decade trying to figure out ways to get out of bad deals" Marbury, Zach, Jefferies, Crawford, Curry.

Before it was Eisely, Anderson, Houston, Ewing. Instead of us biting the bullet and letting those contracts run out, we traded most of those deals for longer ones or exacerbated those mistakes which extended our misery. Give Walsh credit because he is not committing to any longer term deals which has been our achilles heel. People around here dont like it because they are used to splashy offseason headlines but the financial flexibility that Walsh is setting up is something we havent seen since 1996. A year where we reinvented ourselves and put together, arguably, our strongest team since the '70s

Walsh is doing the right thing no matter how much people whine about Ramon around here.

I would add Lee and Nate to this list too. They are good, home grown guys but flawed none-the-less. Perhaps over the next season they iron out the wrinkles and then sign appropriate contracts.
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Nalod
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9/15/2009  12:41 PM

That Bills-Pats game last nite was brutal to watch unfold.

Franchise culture begins at the top. Checketts was a strong charactor and it filtered down. When Drunk Jimmy took the reigns corpse rotted after the head did.

Yanks have cult of personality for years with Steinbrenner, Rooney's in Pittsburg, Debartolo in San Fran, Mara's with Giants, Auerbach ran Celts for years for its owners, Buss in Lake Land, and of course other strong cultures like in San Antionio and Red Sowx.

I think Knicks can be a good franchise again even with an airhead owner so long as he puts the right people in place. Steve Mills and Isiah as team president/GM was idiotic.

The better franchises sustain with in house mentoring and those guys fill in roles vacated by great men. Popovich was a Larry Brown trained assistant.

In Utah, Larry Miller let GM's and coaches have good years and bad ones. Patience is a must!

Say no to Starphuching!

Good take Sebby, first in lenght post from you with out the word "ass" in it!
GKFv2
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9/15/2009  12:43 PM
You know what's consistently bad? Your spelling and grammar.

btw, this is my first post from my cell ever. historic moment.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
sebstar
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9/15/2009  12:57 PM
Posted by Nalod:


That Bills-Pats game last nite was brutal to watch unfold.

Franchise culture begins at the top. Checketts was a strong charactor and it filtered down. When Drunk Jimmy took the reigns corpse rotted after the head did.

Yanks have cult of personality for years with Steinbrenner, Rooney's in Pittsburg, Debartolo in San Fran, Mara's with Giants, Auerbach ran Celts for years for its owners, Buss in Lake Land, and of course other strong cultures like in San Antionio and Red Sowx.

I think Knicks can be a good franchise again even with an airhead owner so long as he puts the right people in place. Steve Mills and Isiah as team president/GM was idiotic.

The better franchises sustain with in house mentoring and those guys fill in roles vacated by great men. Popovich was a Larry Brown trained assistant.

In Utah, Larry Miller let GM's and coaches have good years and bad ones. Patience is a must!

Say no to Starphuching!

Good take Sebby, first in lenght post from you with out the word "ass" in it!

lol. u prolly right.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
knicks1248
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9/15/2009  1:32 PM
We got rid of the bad apples, and yet we were loosing games in similar fashion.

I agree a leader is so needed in the locker room, but three years of losing, results in massive heads rolling..you could be coach of the year and the following season easily get fired.

You could be patient and get fired just as easy. Utah's hall of fame coach has kept the jazz competetive for just about his whole tenure, yet a championship team seems far fetch for that franchise.

Walsh is putting us on track, but it doesn't seem like he will be able to assemble a championship in his tenure despite the cap flex he's striving for.

If we don't sign LB then were just a team with cap room and some talent, and just being competitive seems like all this franchise is striving for.

ES
sebstar
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9/15/2009  1:47 PM
Posted by knicks1248:

We got rid of the bad apples, and yet we were loosing games in similar fashion.

Could you be more specific?
I agree a leader is so needed in the locker room, but three years of losing, results in massive heads rolling..you could be coach of the year and the following season easily get fired.

I hope you're not rehashing Larry Brown here
You could be patient and get fired just as easy. Utah's hall of fame coach has kept the jazz competetive for just about his whole tenure, yet a championship team seems far fetch for that franchise.

Jazz have been a championship level team for years --- they're one of the best run franchises in sports so I am puzzled by this example. Right now they are in somewhat of a holding pattern because they want to build around Darren Williams and they know AK-47 and Boozer 'aint it ; so they are being patient and cautious in their next move. No doubt they are also rubbing their hands at getting our #1 pick and how that will impact their franchise.
Walsh is putting us on track, but it doesn't seem like he will be able to assemble a championship in his tenure despite the cap flex he's striving for.

If we don't sign LB then were just a team with cap room and some talent, and just being competitive seems like all this franchise is striving for.

He's been here for one year fam. C'mon now.

And even if we dont get Lebron we can still sign a major free agent in '10 and grab a Chris Paul in '11. LOL @ most NY'ers having the patience to rebuild and deny immediate temptations.




[Edited by - sebstar on 09-15-2009 3:07 PM]
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
PresIke
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9/15/2009  1:51 PM
even if we don't sign lebron, the key point to succeeding under the nba's cba is that you have to have "cap flexibility."

that's been walsh's mantra.

there are free-agents every season available. we've just never been in play for them.

it doesn't necessarily even mean you have to be under the cap, but ensure that your team is attractive to free-agents, which nyc should always be, and pay most players more what they are worth than overpaying.

teams are currently not overpaying guys like they used to, especially with teams not willing to take on such massive deals for flawed players.

you say 3 years, but walsh has been here 1 year.

i'm not clear how walsh does not seem to be assembling the team you describe.

it seems that mostly the fear that we won't be able to sign free-agents is guiding this notion, yet the problem is we don't even have any evidence to suggest this won't happen just yet. doesn't mean it is for certain to happen, but perhaps we can at least see what happens over the next few years to make a fair assessment.

at the same time, the other key -- keeping valuable players: either ending deals, or guys underpaid or closer to value that other teams may covet -- is also something we have not experienced.

we've been full of a roster of guys who have been overpaid and not as valued for years.

even now, the problem of the team is players like jeffries and curry, in particular, who are the hardest to deal.

we had to give away for less than their talent value, or outright let go much of our most talented players (regardless of how "selfish" they were) to get closer to being under the cap.

this even applies to balkman who was partially dealt because of concerns about his salary vs. value to the team.

z-bo given away for ending deals.
steph banished.

on top of that we had lost key draft picks due to deals for curry and steph, which hurts the team's flexiblity in dealing with giving away talent. bad teams can give away talented malcontents even if it makes them lose more when they know they keep their draft picks.

walsh has been playing with a depleted hand since arriving, and imho, done a fairly good job of handling the situation thus far, even if there may be some debatable decisions, or non-decisions. however, all of those that were made were keeping in mind the balancing act he needs to perform to ensure we aren't an entire joke for attractiveness, talent maintenance, reality of no draft pick this year, and being near/under the cap enough to be a player in the 2010 free-agent market.

[Edited by - PresIke on 09-15-2009 1:56 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Why are franchise consistantly bad know matter what

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