Its just amazing listening to the wingnuts position Obama's fight for affordable health care as some sort of Nazi-like, socialist plot to ruin America. Sad Really. Made more amazing by the fact that these same individuals were enthusiastic cheerleaders and apologists for wars based on falsehoods, the Patriot Act and wiretapping, the ballooning of the deficit, and the outing of C.I.A agents who opposed the administration...among other things.

Its much more disappointing, however, to see people that would benefit the most, working families, being trotted out in these townhall meetings and manipulated into become foot soldiers for insurance bureaucrats. Its sad, but never underestimate the power of exploiting racial animus and misguided class warfare.

I agree Bonn...Obama needs to take the gloves off and get serious about the public option being the only option. Single payer would be too optimistic given the dogma promoted by those on the right --- but the public option is an absolute. Dems were put into power in every key position and the need to stop acting like p*ssys. When they got control of congress, they said they needed control of executive. When they got control of executive they said they needed a filibuster-proof senate. You've got everything, now do what we put you in power to do.

Dems are such wimps. When the re-thuglicans had power they did whatever they wanted without regard to any notion of bi-partisanship or such.

Posted by sebstar:

Its just amazing listening to the wingnuts position Obama's fight for affordable health care as some sort of Nazi-like, socialist plot to ruin America. Sad Really. Made more amazing by the fact that these same individuals were enthusiastic cheerleaders and apologists for wars based on falsehoods, the Patriot Act and wiretapping, the ballooning of the deficit, and the outing of C.I.A agents who opposed the administration...among other things.

Its much more disappointing, however, to see people that would benefit the most, working families, being trotted out in these townhall meetings and manipulated into become foot soldiers for insurance bureaucrats. Its sad, but never underestimate the power of exploiting racial animus and misguided class warfare.

I agree Bonn...Obama needs to take the gloves off and get serious about the public option being the only option. Single payer would be too optimistic given the dogma promoted by those on the right --- but the public option is an absolute. Dems were put into power in every key position and the need to stop acting like p*ssys. When they got control of congress, they said they needed control of executive. When they got control of executive they said they needed a filibuster-proof senate. You've got everything, now do what we put you in power to do.

Dems are such wimps. When the re-thuglicans had power they did whatever they wanted without regard to any notion of bi-partisanship or such.

What people dont understand is that this isnt some sort of manipulation of the poor working families. They arent being trotted out, or bussed in (like certain ACORN CRONIES...). People dont want this crap.

Posted by izybx:

Posted by firefly:

I was wondering what you guys think about what Obama wants to do in the US with national healthcare.

I can give you my experiences. The NHS in the UK is flawed. The waiting times can be loooong. The nurses are underpaid and therefore not very good. It can sometimes get bogged down under its own red tape. And other problems.

Despite all that, anyone who says that having a National Health Service is a bad idea, is comletely and utterly insane. The thought that having to buy your own healthcare on an anual basis from companies that vie with each other for your business and therefore drive down spending is better then having a free healthcare option is so ridiculous it borders on the laughable.
I challenge anyone to explain to me why some people in the US think having an NHS in the US is a a bad idea. I cant give you all the amazing stories about the things the NHS do on a daily basis in the UK, because this page isnt long enough. My own experiences with them have been almost all great. And even the ones which werent that good are counterbalanced by the fact that its a free service. Let me say the again. Its. Free. What more is there to say?

Its not free health care. If you have a job you will pay for it in higher taxes. If you think the government can lower costs than look at the post office, the federal government in general, nearly every state budget and any government run program. They are all close to being bankrupt, in massive debt, and examples of gross inefficiency. Im sure you have amazing stories about your health care, but to be honest im not interested. My health care is great. I have a 15 dollar co pay for an MRI. I dont want it changed. End of story.

So. Its. NOT. Free. Im going to have to pay for your free health care. So no thanks.

I honestly laugh at you guys sometimes. You really do have no idea.

Nothing in this world is free. Of course youre going to have to pay for it, especially since you should have implemented this decades ago. So startup will cost you a bunch. Big deal. I guarantee, after the initial furore, you will never notice it again. Countries that dont have a free at the point of care system have no understanding of how it benefits the entire society.

Good for you, with your 15 dollar co pay whatever the hell that is. What happens if you get run over one night, no id, no friends, family etc.? You dont get treated until the hospital can confirm insurance. Or they take care of you until they confirm you dont have insurance then turf your hurting ass out.

Call it a stealth tax, whatever, the truth is, once you start paying it, you'll never notice it again. Its never going to be you around the kitchen table trying figure out which taxes you can afford to pay. But it will be you trying to figure out which insurance you can afford to pay without national healthcare. Decry it all you want, the only reason you dont have it yet is because of the huuuuge pharma lobby. The only reason this is even an issue is because of the amounts of money made on health insurance.

You call it crap. You're like the blind guy calling colours crap. You dont know what your missing my friend.

[Edited by - firefly on 09-13-2009 8:03 PM]

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by firefly:

I was wondering what you guys think about what Obama wants to do in the US with national healthcare.

I can give you my experiences. The NHS in the UK is flawed. The waiting times can be loooong. The nurses are underpaid and therefore not very good. It can sometimes get bogged down under its own red tape. And other problems.

Despite all that, anyone who says that having a National Health Service is a bad idea, is comletely and utterly insane. The thought that having to buy your own healthcare on an anual basis from companies that vie with each other for your business and therefore drive down spending is better then having a free healthcare option is so ridiculous it borders on the laughable.
I challenge anyone to explain to me why some people in the US think having an NHS in the US is a a bad idea. I cant give you all the amazing stories about the things the NHS do on a daily basis in the UK, because this page isnt long enough. My own experiences with them have been almost all great. And even the ones which werent that good are counterbalanced by the fact that its a free service. Let me say the again. Its. Free. What more is there to say?

Its not free health care. If you have a job you will pay for it in higher taxes. If you think the government can lower costs than look at the post office, the federal government in general, nearly every state budget and any government run program. They are all close to being bankrupt, in massive debt, and examples of gross inefficiency. Im sure you have amazing stories about your health care, but to be honest im not interested. My health care is great. I have a 15 dollar co pay for an MRI. I dont want it changed. End of story.

So. Its. NOT. Free. Im going to have to pay for your free health care. So no thanks.

What would be your co-pay if you were laid off from your job? Also you say cite various government agencies as being inefficient so I'm curious as to why you would choose employment with a government entity in the NYPD?

The Health Care sector has donated more then $154 million dollars to Federal lawmakers in the past year so with that knowledge I have very little hope for legitimate health care reform.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 09-13-2009 8:48 PM]

There are too many Senate DEMOCRATS sadly who have sold out to the insurance lobbyists. I really just think of myself as a progressive, not a Democrat, nowadays.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-13-2009 8:54 PM]

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by firefly:

I was wondering what you guys think about what Obama wants to do in the US with national healthcare.

I can give you my experiences. The NHS in the UK is flawed. The waiting times can be loooong. The nurses are underpaid and therefore not very good. It can sometimes get bogged down under its own red tape. And other problems.

Despite all that, anyone who says that having a National Health Service is a bad idea, is comletely and utterly insane. The thought that having to buy your own healthcare on an anual basis from companies that vie with each other for your business and therefore drive down spending is better then having a free healthcare option is so ridiculous it borders on the laughable.
I challenge anyone to explain to me why some people in the US think having an NHS in the US is a a bad idea. I cant give you all the amazing stories about the things the NHS do on a daily basis in the UK, because this page isnt long enough. My own experiences with them have been almost all great. And even the ones which werent that good are counterbalanced by the fact that its a free service. Let me say the again. Its. Free. What more is there to say?

Its not free health care. If you have a job you will pay for it in higher taxes. If you think the government can lower costs than look at the post office, the federal government in general, nearly every state budget and any government run program. They are all close to being bankrupt, in massive debt, and examples of gross inefficiency. Im sure you have amazing stories about your health care, but to be honest im not interested. My health care is great. I have a 15 dollar co pay for an MRI. I dont want it changed. End of story.

So. Its. NOT. Free. Im going to have to pay for your free health care. So no thanks.

What would be your co-pay if you were laid off from your job? Also you say cite various government agencies as being inefficient so I'm curious as to why you would choose employment with a government entity in the NYPD?

The Health Care sector has donated more then $154 million dollars to Federal lawmakers in the past year so with that knowledge I have very little hope for legitimate health care reform.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 09-13-2009 8:48 PM]

There are too many Senate DEMOCRATS sadly who have sold out to the insurance lobbyists. I really just think of myself as a progressive, not a Democrat, nowadays.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-13-2009 8:54 PM]

Yea I'm pretty disgusted with the Democratic Party and find a great many of our Democrat lawmakers to be utterly useless.

Posted by firefly:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by firefly:

I was wondering what you guys think about what Obama wants to do in the US with national healthcare.

I can give you my experiences. The NHS in the UK is flawed. The waiting times can be loooong. The nurses are underpaid and therefore not very good. It can sometimes get bogged down under its own red tape. And other problems.

Despite all that, anyone who says that having a National Health Service is a bad idea, is comletely and utterly insane. The thought that having to buy your own healthcare on an anual basis from companies that vie with each other for your business and therefore drive down spending is better then having a free healthcare option is so ridiculous it borders on the laughable.
I challenge anyone to explain to me why some people in the US think having an NHS in the US is a a bad idea. I cant give you all the amazing stories about the things the NHS do on a daily basis in the UK, because this page isnt long enough. My own experiences with them have been almost all great. And even the ones which werent that good are counterbalanced by the fact that its a free service. Let me say the again. Its. Free. What more is there to say?

Its not free health care. If you have a job you will pay for it in higher taxes. If you think the government can lower costs than look at the post office, the federal government in general, nearly every state budget and any government run program. They are all close to being bankrupt, in massive debt, and examples of gross inefficiency. Im sure you have amazing stories about your health care, but to be honest im not interested. My health care is great. I have a 15 dollar co pay for an MRI. I dont want it changed. End of story.

So. Its. NOT. Free. Im going to have to pay for your free health care. So no thanks.

I honestly laugh at you guys sometimes. You really do have no idea.

Nothing in this world is free. Of course youre going to have to pay for it, especially since you should have implemented this decades ago. So startup will cost you a bunch. Big deal. I guarantee, after the initial furore, you will never notice it again. Countries that dont have a free at the point of care system have no understanding of how it benefits the entire society.

Good for you, with your 15 dollar co pay whatever the hell that is. What happens if you get run over one night, no id, no friends, family etc.? You dont get treated until the hospital can confirm insurance. Or they take care of you until they confirm you dont have insurance then turf your hurting ass out.

Call it a stealth tax, whatever, the truth is, once you start paying it, you'll never notice it again. Its never going to be you around the kitchen table trying figure out which taxes you can afford to pay. But it will be you trying to figure out which insurance you can afford to pay without national healthcare. Decry it all you want, the only reason you dont have it yet is because of the huuuuge pharma lobby. The only reason this is even an issue is because of the amounts of money made on health insurance.

You call it crap. You're like the blind guy calling colours crap. You dont know what your missing my friend.

[Edited by - firefly on 09-13-2009 8:03 PM]

This is the only thing in your post I find that I need to respond to. In America, noone can be denied emergency care at a hospital. In this situation, I would be treated.

Posted by Bonn1997:

You've managed to ignore all the research evidence Izy. What nonpartisan organization can you cite that has provided research evidence that government involvement harms a nation's health care? What evidence do you have that "people don't want this crap"? Every poll I see has support anywhere from the low 50s to low 60s for the President's health care plans. Also, Fedex has successfully competed with the government for the past 12 years and is currently worth about $25 billion. I don't know who (Rush? Beck?) you got the idea from that it was killed by government competition. I can't think of one example where the government put private businesses out of business. There's plenty of private colleges (making more money than I can imagine) despite public colleges; plenty of private bookstores despite public libraries; plenty of private security companies and systems despite public police and fire departments. You seem to be living in your own "evidence-free" world.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-13-2009 4:47 PM]

Another one. I dont agree with you so I am Rush or Beck. Seriously. Some of you guys need to take your noses out of the air and stop thinking that people who agree with you are independent thinkers and everyone else is listening to talk radio. Do you guys read what you write? "Rush? Beck?" What the hell are you talking about? Talk about stuck up clowns...

I tell you what, Ill keep private insurance and you can have the your public insurance. Because in all the examples you cited the private option is much better. But under this plan that wont happen. Why would my employer provide me with my top notch coverage when they can drop me and I will pick up public insurance, saving them money? Im not interested in this hairbrained scheme.


[Edited by - izybx on 14-09-2009 12:36 AM]

I tell you what, Ill keep private insurance and you can have the your public insurance. Because in all the examples you cited the private option is much better. But under this plan that wont happen. Why would my employer provide me with my top notch coverage when they can drop me and I will pick up public insurance, saving them money?

because then you can go to an employer who isn't such a cheapskate, unless your employer uses the extra savings to pay you more. If the marketplace determines that people prefer to go to employers who pay more but let their employees use a public option, we'll have a healthier nation, as the WHO ratings make it pretty clear that the government provides better insurance for the majority of the people than do for-profit corporations.
Sorry about the part where I referred to Rush or Beck. I don't know who else besides them or similar pundits you'd be getting these views from but I shouldn't make assumptions.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 09-14-2009 07:05 AM]

I think working for different gov't branches with different puposes is not working for the same employer. You can be proud of the police force or the national lab you work for but think the government as a whole is inefficient and corrupt. To say otherwise has a Bush-like you're either with us or against us feel.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by bitty41:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by firefly:

I was wondering what you guys think about what Obama wants to do in the US with national healthcare.

I can give you my experiences. The NHS in the UK is flawed. The waiting times can be loooong. The nurses are underpaid and therefore not very good. It can sometimes get bogged down under its own red tape. And other problems.

Despite all that, anyone who says that having a National Health Service is a bad idea, is comletely and utterly insane. The thought that having to buy your own healthcare on an anual basis from companies that vie with each other for your business and therefore drive down spending is better then having a free healthcare option is so ridiculous it borders on the laughable.
I challenge anyone to explain to me why some people in the US think having an NHS in the US is a a bad idea. I cant give you all the amazing stories about the things the NHS do on a daily basis in the UK, because this page isnt long enough. My own experiences with them have been almost all great. And even the ones which werent that good are counterbalanced by the fact that its a free service. Let me say the again. Its. Free. What more is there to say?

Its not free health care. If you have a job you will pay for it in higher taxes. If you think the government can lower costs than look at the post office, the federal government in general, nearly every state budget and any government run program. They are all close to being bankrupt, in massive debt, and examples of gross inefficiency. Im sure you have amazing stories about your health care, but to be honest im not interested. My health care is great. I have a 15 dollar co pay for an MRI. I dont want it changed. End of story.

So. Its. NOT. Free. Im going to have to pay for your free health care. So no thanks.

What would be your co-pay if you were laid off from your job? Also you say cite various government agencies as being inefficient so I'm curious as to why you would choose employment with a government entity in the NYPD?

The Health Care sector has donated more then $154 million dollars to Federal lawmakers in the past year so with that knowledge I have very little hope for legitimate health care reform.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 09-13-2009 8:48 PM]

Why do I have a job In the NYPD? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Her point was that you're criticizing government for being inefficient and wasteful apparently without caring about the fact that you're a government employee who would be looking for a job if it weren't for the government. Why do you choose to work for an employer you have such low regard for? I teach at a private college that I am proud of. If I held such low regard for my employer, I'd leave and find an organization I could proudly call myself a part of.