TMS,bip allanfan fishmike, n few others..where big fans of the rebuilding the knicks through the draft process..this was right after we loss to the rapts in the playoffs. They argue me down about getting younger and how rebuiling through the draft is the only way to go. Well here we are almost 8+ years later and like I predicted it's been horrendous all the way around. We still haven't gotten a franchise player and the solid drafts that we have gotten in the process have been traded away for vets. Lee and nate are on the verge of bouncing outta here, DG and wilson are no lock.and like I said then, this rebuilding thing thru the draft is the most overated proceedure in the NBA. It takes years for most players to develope a true understanding of how to win, and most young players play for there next big contract, by then there trade bait,and in the process GMs and coaches get fired and franchise become laughing stocks...Boy I wish I could find those threads..but can't say I didn't tell you exactly how it would play out.

You're a true prophet.

I'm from the old All-Sports gang and it was the same there. And it will always be the same as the draft is all about hope and we've been hopeless for a while. In the end, there is no surefire quick process and unfortunately we've had solid picks but no franchise player.

Now we are in the 2010 train. We'll see, but things don't look great either. At least we have flexibility.

Your propably right marv..I use to use the Bulls and spurs as examples of what to do and what not to do..How young do you want your team to be, as you look at a championship teams of the past 1s years, you realize that all you need is one or two good upincoming stars to be the x factor..cassel,parker,wade,kobe(exception to the rule) rondo, prince,ginobli,kukoc,ariza ect, these are players surronded by vets and a franchise player..we keep drafting developing ( minus sweetny and fry) and shipping..Now we can't even get simple veterens to commit for one year..In some ways you can't argue with isaih for trading the pick for curry, because curry is one of the biggest disappointing players in the history of the franchise..the draft is a lottery crap shoot, nothing more.

Posted by knicks1248:

TMS,bip allanfan fishmike, n few others..where big fans of the rebuilding the knicks through the draft process..this was right after we loss to the rapts in the playoffs. They argue me down about getting younger and how rebuiling through the draft is the only way to go. Well here we are almost 8+ years later and like I predicted it's been horrendous all the way around. We still haven't gotten a franchise player and the solid drafts that we have gotten in the process have been traded away for vets. Lee and nate are on the verge of bouncing outta here, DG and wilson are no lock.and like I said then, this rebuilding thing thru the draft is the most overated proceedure in the NBA. It takes years for most players to develope a true understanding of how to win, and most young players play for there next big contract, by then there trade bait,and in the process GMs and coaches get fired and franchise become laughing stocks...Boy I wish I could find those threads..but can't say I didn't tell you exactly how it would play out.

This is BS, Bip has never once in his life said that we need to rebuild through the draft. As a matter of fact Bip has been one of the biggest opponents of the build through the draft philosophy in the history of these boards. Bip has always said that rebuilding is done by placing yourself in position to take advantage of the draft(by earning high or extra draft picks), taking advantage of free agency(by having cap space) and having reasonable contracts so that you are able to trade the players that you have. When you put yourself in position to take advantage of all three avenues that's when your team gets "lucky".

If you follow the preaching that Bip has preached(not happy with this phrase, someone please fix) you will find that he called for the following steps

1.) Get a proven winner at the GM and coach spot. This does not mean you have to have Red Auerbach and Jerry West. But you have to have proven winners at these spots if you want to rebuild after 15 years of success. Is D'Antoni my favorite coach? No. But he foots the bill for now. If he proves that he is not a championship level coach then you can hire someone else Chicago replaced Collins with Phil. Detroit replaced (can't remember) with LB. Nothing says we can't do the same when our team is making a run. D'Antoni does not have to be the coach or else.

2.) We must have a GM and coach that are on the same page. No they do not have to agree on everything, but they can't be sabotaging each other like management has done for years. Constantly throwing each other under the bus to save their jobs. We currently have a good situation

3.) Get rid of all the malcontents and bring in proven winners and young guys with great attitudes to change the team culture. Unfortunately when you are in this stage you will lose out on some great players who may have attitude issues. Too bad, this is reality and you have to deal with it when you are coming from the depths we are coming from. I have said this so many times, that it amazes me that someone is claiming I ever wanted to build only through the draft.

4.) Take advantage of the draft either through picks or trades. I do not believe in tanking. You only play the young guys if they earn the time.

5.) Cap space-A no brainer. If you have cap space you have flexibility. If you don't have cap space you need to be winning 50+ a year

6.) Reasonable contracts-There's that flexibility again.

I defy anyone that says I ever called for rebuilding through the draft. I love you Knicks1248. You have always been one of my boys, but please let me speak for myself.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 16-07-2009 5:36 PM]

I am so angry right now!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got love for you to bip, an all of those guys I mention+..I was just recalling some of the ideas that were discuss and for some reason I got killed for not seeing younger as a better option then what we had..I knew we would never be bad enough to get a top 3 pick and honestly speaking it was not really the talant that was killing us, but more so the coaching. Even with mda and walsh things haven't really gotten a whole lot better. with IT we got an upgrade in talant as mismatch as it was, and although the verdict is still out on walsh and mda, they came in the door and flat out embarass the franchise even more with the marbury saga, and the zach trade who's contract was traded FOR A 3rd TIME since he sign it. So how premature was that trade..walsh is a good consertive pres..and MDA is a very good offensive coach.. But both lack something..I can't put my finger on..I think they will get us better but I don't think they will get labron or wade or bosh for the matter.

Hey man, I'll admit that I said we should have got young players and developed them, but I was a youngin then. Now I'm an old man. Very old. Now I realize there's no given recipe for building a championship team. I think you need a combo of things, and some luck that you got from smart GMing/coaching.

And we're not just building through the draft. We have nothing but short contracts now (1 to 2 years) and we're doing the best we can with the young guys. Things will fall into place.

Lets see how Gallo and the Mayor turn out.

I am happy now because since Ewing retired all I wanted was for this team to have a plan. One that was featured around a type of team and a style of play. We have that now and in a year where the focus was dumping the contracts of our most productive players we improved by 10 wins. Not to mention the fact that we got NOTHING from the bigman our team was supposed to be built around.

You dont always have a chance to get a franchise player. You cant fault the GM for timing and circumstances. Jerry West was a god of GMs. Someone tell me what he got done in 4-5 years at Memphis.

What you can do is be smart. Not box yourself into players and situtations you cant grow out of. Stay flexible and build according to a plan and syle of play.

Thats what DW is doing. After a couple years of DW we will be a good team. We may never be a great team, but we will have a chance. Building around $20mm a year cast off players like Marbury, Zach and Curry we had ZERO chance to be great.

You just gotta have a plan. The merits of a given plan can be discussed, thought over, and all that, but that's irrelevant. You MUST have a plan to even begin to consider its' merits-- you can't make any decision without a plan, because any decision that isn't founded on a plan amounts to nothing but a random choice.

So we have a plan now. I don't believe Isiah had a plan.

Now, you can say that Isiah's plan was "stock up on talent" or whatever, but a plan is not truly a plan unless the adherence to such an endeavor guarantees some end result. "Stocking up talent" is not a plan because it had no long term end, no 'cap', if you will.

Isiah's greatest failure is not in his player moves, his failure was a lack of a plan, a lack of leadership. And it is for this reason that Donnie Walsh has already, by far, surpassed any level of competence or success that Isiah had reached in his 8 years.

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by orangeblobman:

You just gotta have a plan. The merits of a given plan can be discussed, thought over, and all that, but that's irrelevant. You MUST have a plan to even begin to consider its' merits-- you can't make any decision without a plan, because any decision that isn't founded on a plan amounts to nothing but a random choice.

So we have a plan now. I don't believe Isiah had a plan.

Now, you can say that Isiah's plan was "stock up on talent" or whatever, but a plan is not truly a plan unless the adherence to such an endeavor guarantees some end result. "Stocking up talent" is not a plan because it had no long term end, no 'cap', if you will.

Isiah's greatest failure is not in his player moves, his failure was a lack of a plan, a lack of leadership. And it is for this reason that Donnie Walsh has already, by far, surpassed any level of competence or success that Isiah had reached in his 8 years.

I think Isiah was his own worst enemy. He changed franchise guys from Marbs to Eddie to Zach. He changed coaches 4 or 5 times. He gave up draft picks and assets for guys that he gave up on in a matter of a year or so. He undermined himself by allowing the disruptive vets run the show. He has a great eye for talent, but never really spent much time trying to figure out what makes a great team. By the time he was in the coaches spot and realized he needed more, it was too late. He had thrown so many people under the buss that if he started cutting ties he would have just proven that Don, Lenny, Herb and Larry were right.

well sure, if you want to look at it that way. what are you in a bad mood today?