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Hill and Douglas are.....
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Cosmic
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....like?
Balkman and Collins
Lee and Nate
Somewhere inbetween the two above examples.
Too early to tell.
BUMS! Fire DanTonioDanzaJanetReno!
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Knicksfan
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7/16/2009  8:22 AM
With so many bad alternatives, had to go with "too early" since it really is. Anyone on panic mode should get a grip and give them time.
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Cosmic
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7/16/2009  8:30 AM
Not in panic mode here just seeing what people feel we did with this draft. With the 8 and 29 pick you can't expect much. I like Douglas' speed and ability to run an offense in various ways - I hope the shot starts to fall for him as he has been said to be quite a scorer so I think it will. With Hill I just don't know he is not just raw but also awkward out there. We're going to probably see slow development of him.

As to the choices what are bad about them? Lee and Nate were great picks. Balkman and Collins flopped in the end. From there...what do you have? Somewhere inbetween? Too early to tell meaning it's just....too early to tell? *lol*. The BUMS is for the serious pessimists and jokers like the recently departed Bluest.

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McK1
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7/16/2009  8:43 AM
Posted by Cosmic:

Not in panic mode here just seeing what people feel we did with this draft. With the 8 and 29 pick you can't expect much. I like Douglas' speed and ability to run an offense in various ways - I hope the shot starts to fall for him as he has been said to be quite a scorer so I think it will. With Hill I just don't know he is not just raw but also awkward out there. We're going to probably see slow development of him.

As to the choices what are bad about them? Lee and Nate were great picks. Balkman and Collins flopped in the end. From there...what do you have? Somewhere inbetween? Too early to tell meaning it's just....too early to tell? *lol*. The BUMS is for the serious pessimists and jokers like the recently departed Bluest.

maybe not the 29 even though every year there are late round steals but to say you can't expect much from the 8 pick is bull****.

Andrew Toney
Tom Chambers
Clark Kellogg
Detlef Shrempf
Ron Harper
Rex Chapman
Vin Baker
Brian Grant
Kerry Kittles
Andre Miller
TJ Ford
Rudy Gay
Jamal Crawford
Larry Hughes
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Cosmic
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7/16/2009  8:50 AM
At 8 you're unlikely to get a franchise player. That's my point...maybe I should have expressed it better.

I don't quite see anything that would make me feel we just scored a starting player for the next decade at #8. I just don't see that...I see wondering if we scored a rotation player that would come off the bench for a decade.

Again, quite early to bury a guy's entire career before it started, and I certainly am NOT TRYING TO DO THAT. Just observing what we've seen so far. So far there's not much to write home about.

In this topic the future is irrelevant - just discussing what we already have seen is what this is about. We can throw the "Oh, but in five years, who knows how good they might be!" out the window...that's not the point of this poll which I made born on the topic of "after 2 days of SL..." thread.

It's about what we've seen so far. And so far... I see Collins and Balkman while holding out hope I see Lee and Nate and on a logical stance I say it's too early to tell.

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Pharzeone
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7/16/2009  8:51 AM
That is an impressive list of #8 players.
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Knicksfan
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7/16/2009  8:52 AM
The panic comment wasn't meant for you but for many others that have already given up on them after freaking two SUMMER LEAGUE games! Its ridiculous but many knicks fans are.

About the alternatives, I don't like them as two of them, the comparisons, are way off as they don't really consider the players. I mean, Balkman and Collins? Balkman only because of hair style and motor, because everything else is completely off. The Douglas/Collins comparison is worse. Only similarity is in the defensive effort, but its a bad alternative.

Now, Nate and Lee are only in discussion because of the same positions and for being their apparent replacements. But the fact is both aren't yet at N8s and Lee's levels and their potential seems to be very different players. Douglas potential is of a floor leader, defensive specialist and scoring spark off the bench though he is talented enough to start at some point. Nate was just the offensive spark. Lee is a great rebounder with solid O and no D. Hill has the potential to be an all-around stud as he has many offensive weapons still developing, he is active on D and block shots and can definitely get strong enough and is tall enough to play Center decently.

So to sum it up I just think both comparisons, no matter how well intended, are a lil off regarding the prospects. But that's just my opinion. Just sharing.
Knicks_Fan
Cosmic
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7/16/2009  8:52 AM
Oh and that list of players you posted makes me vomit. None of those guys carried their teams. None of those guys were superstars or franchise players. They were all generally role players. A couple of them quite good but not deserving of worship.

And again, that's the point, at 8 you can get a good player but it's rare you get a franchise player. Jordan Hill sure as hell is not a franchise player but he has a chance to be a good player.
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Cosmic
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7/16/2009  8:54 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:

The panic comment wasn't meant for you but for many others that have already given up on them after freaking two SUMMER LEAGUE games! Its ridiculous but many knicks fans are.

About the alternatives, I don't like them as two of them, the comparisons, are way off as they don't really consider the players. I mean, Balkman and Collins? Balkman only because of hair style and motor, because everything else is completely off. The Douglas/Collins comparison is worse. Only similarity is in the defensive effort, but its a bad alternative.

Now, Nate and Lee are only in discussion because of the same positions and for being their apparent replacements. But the fact is both aren't yet at N8s and Lee's levels and their potential seems to be very different players. Douglas potential is of a floor leader, defensive specialist and scoring spark off the bench though he is talented enough to start at some point. Nate was just the offensive spark. Lee is a great rebounder with solid O and no D. Hill has the potential to be an all-around stud as he has many offensive weapons still developing, he is active on D and block shots and can definitely get strong enough and is tall enough to play Center decently.

So to sum it up I just think both comparisons, no matter how well intended, are a lil off regarding the prospects. But that's just my opinion. Just sharing.

Nope, Balkman and Collins because they sucked. So are Hill and Douglas bums? If so, you pick Balkman/Collins. Lee and Nate have done quite well. So are hill and Douglas good players? If so you pick Lee/Nate. The rest are self explanatory.

I wasn't trying to compare Collins/Nate to Douglas or Hill to Balkman/Lee. I was using them as a rating system. Collins/Balkman=F, Nate/Lee=A. So what would you give Donnie? An A (Lee/Nate) or an F (Balkman/Collins)?

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Knicksfan
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7/16/2009  9:01 AM
You can't fairly discuss prospects without considering their possible future because if you only focus on the present, what do you have? Two summer league games? When we know what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas? This guys are still sinking in the fact that they are NBA ballers now, are still off in terms of their conditioning and are hardly playing full organized basketball, as for example compare Summer League to preseason.

That's why it isn't healthy for a fan to jump to conclusions after SL.
Knicks_Fan
Knicksfan
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7/16/2009  9:05 AM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by Knicksfan:

The panic comment wasn't meant for you but for many others that have already given up on them after freaking two SUMMER LEAGUE games! Its ridiculous but many knicks fans are.

About the alternatives, I don't like them as two of them, the comparisons, are way off as they don't really consider the players. I mean, Balkman and Collins? Balkman only because of hair style and motor, because everything else is completely off. The Douglas/Collins comparison is worse. Only similarity is in the defensive effort, but its a bad alternative.

Now, Nate and Lee are only in discussion because of the same positions and for being their apparent replacements. But the fact is both aren't yet at N8s and Lee's levels and their potential seems to be very different players. Douglas potential is of a floor leader, defensive specialist and scoring spark off the bench though he is talented enough to start at some point. Nate was just the offensive spark. Lee is a great rebounder with solid O and no D. Hill has the potential to be an all-around stud as he has many offensive weapons still developing, he is active on D and block shots and can definitely get strong enough and is tall enough to play Center decently.

So to sum it up I just think both comparisons, no matter how well intended, are a lil off regarding the prospects. But that's just my opinion. Just sharing.

Nope, Balkman and Collins because they sucked. So are Hill and Douglas bums? If so, you pick Balkman/Collins. Lee and Nate have done quite well. So are hill and Douglas good players? If so you pick Lee/Nate. The rest are self explanatory.

I wasn't trying to compare Collins/Nate to Douglas or Hill to Balkman/Lee. I was using them as a rating system. Collins/Balkman=F, Nate/Lee=A. So what would you give Donnie? An A (Lee/Nate) or an F (Balkman/Collins)?

Fair enough. Well, I stick with "too early to tell" then.
Knicks_Fan
Cosmic
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7/16/2009  9:24 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:



Fair enough. Well, I stick with "too early to tell" then.

LOL

Damn, this thread turned into an EPIC failure. I thought I had something good. I thought wrong.

Carry on!

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Paladin55
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7/16/2009  9:32 AM
Where is the Malone and Stockton choice?
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Paladin55
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7/16/2009  9:43 AM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Cosmic:

Not in panic mode here just seeing what people feel we did with this draft. With the 8 and 29 pick you can't expect much. I like Douglas' speed and ability to run an offense in various ways - I hope the shot starts to fall for him as he has been said to be quite a scorer so I think it will. With Hill I just don't know he is not just raw but also awkward out there. We're going to probably see slow development of him.

As to the choices what are bad about them? Lee and Nate were great picks. Balkman and Collins flopped in the end. From there...what do you have? Somewhere inbetween? Too early to tell meaning it's just....too early to tell? *lol*. The BUMS is for the serious pessimists and jokers like the recently departed Bluest.

maybe not the 29 even though every year there are late round steals but to say you can't expect much from the 8 pick is bull****.

Andrew Toney
Tom Chambers
Clark Kellogg
Detlef Shrempf
Ron Harper
Rex Chapman
Vin Baker
Brian Grant
Kerry Kittles
Andre Miller
TJ Ford
Rudy Gay
Jamal Crawford
Larry Hughes

A mixed bag at #8, IMO. Lots of talented guys with a lot of flaws as players. I don't see why Hill can't eventually play at the level some of the guys above reached and even do better.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Cosmic
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7/16/2009  9:43 AM
Posted by Paladin55:

Where is the Malone and Stockton choice?

LOL

I was going to put up an Oakley/Starks but that was too much. It was either we scored in the draft (lee/nate) or we flunked the draft (balk/mardy).

Again, I failed miserably here, so I am going to look down at my feet and shuffle on outta here.

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djsunyc
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7/16/2009  10:18 AM
knicks should've just re-signed wilcox (who's better than hill and still relatively young) and drafted a pg...but i'm guessing d'antoni didn't like wilcox at all...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-16-2009 10:19 AM]
martin
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7/16/2009  10:23 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

knicks should've just re-signed wilcox (who's better than hill and still relatively young) and drafted a pg...but i'm guessing d'antoni didn't like wilcox at all...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-16-2009 10:19 AM]

wilcox better than hill? man, shoot me now.

What did wilcox do to even earn minutes last year. dude SUCKED
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Knicksfan
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7/16/2009  10:23 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

knicks should've just re-signed wilcox (who's better than hill and still relatively young) and drafted a pg...but i'm guessing d'antoni didn't like wilcox at all...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-16-2009 10:19 AM]

Do you really believe that? I'm surprised, DJ.

Knicks_Fan
djsunyc
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7/16/2009  10:28 AM
my point is what exactly is the discernable difference between hill and wilcox? it's not like wilcox was playing with a pg last year. hill is having issues in summer league and is by all accounts a project. already conditioning issues are coming up.

the way i see it, there was a GLARING hole at pg, and that's the most important position for d'antoni and the knicks ignored it. don't give me toney douglas b/c they went after kidd + miller.

this is starting to look like a gm and coach out of sync story that the knicks have been going through forever.

drafting a pg in this draft >>>>>>>>>>>>>> drafting hill.

replacing hill with wilcox would've been discernable AT THE VERY LEAST. and now the knicks have hill and still no pg.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-16-2009 10:29 AM]
Knicksfan
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7/16/2009  10:30 AM
We usually want to draft potential because we need studs. But again, we can't stand the wait for them and declare them busts before even playing an NBA game. Many thought Hill was the safe pick and expected him to dominate immediately. Hill has the talent to help us this season, but probably not as prominently as some would like. But what's nice is that he also has good potential to become a stud with time.

Why don't we just give him time?
Knicks_Fan
djsunyc
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7/16/2009  10:34 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:

We usually want to draft potential because we need studs. But again, we can't stand the wait for them and declare them busts before even playing an NBA game. Many thought Hill was the safe pick and expected him to dominate immediately. Hill has the talent to help us this season, but probably not as prominently as some would like. But what's nice is that he also has good potential to become a stud with time.

Why don't we just give him time?

i agree 100% about giving it time...but here's my question about what the knicks are doing...

you have a coach in d'antoni who likes certain type of players. he's under contract until the 2011/2012 season. when was the last knicks coach to finish their contract?

will walsh still be the gm at age 75?

is hill going to be ready for primetime by 2010? can you rely on that?

it seems the gm is thinking long term but hired a now coach...so in 2010, when the knicks get their free agent, it will still take 2-3 years after that to build into a big winner (if at all). and possibly longer since it looks like lee + nate may be casualties. do you think hill will be allowed time to go through growing pains? what if the free agent is bosh, then what do you do with hill then?

i just have questions about the way walsh is using the draft to build this team and whether d'antoni has alot of input on the selections.

all of this could be moot if lebron comes to town, then nobody will care about a guy like jordan hill...but if he doesn't, then alot of things have to come into question...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-16-2009 10:35 AM]
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