I looked at guards who could conceivably fall to us as well as guards we might consider if we traded back to the middle of the first round. The chart lists the following
1) Height w shoes
2) Max Vertical Jump
3) Agility
4) Sprint
5) Bench Press

DeRozan......6'6.5" ..38.5..11.88..3.31..5
Harden.......6'5.25".37.0..11.10..3.13..17
Evans........6'5.25".34.0..11.80..3.17..7
Henderson....6'5".....35.0..11.17..3.14..8
Holiday .....6'4.25".34.0..10.64..3.21..6
Curry........6'3.25".35.5..11.07..3.28..10
Teague.......6'1.5"..36.5..11.05..3.18..13
Flynn........6'0.75".40.0..10.86..3.23..10
Lawson.......6'0.5"..36.5..10.98..3.12..14

Some conclusions
1) Lawson and Curry are stronger than I thought.
2) Harden and Curry are better athletes than I thought.
3) In the area of strength, some of the freshmen have the lowest scores, which means it probably will be corrected over time as they work out more.

Posted by orangeblobman:

what are the units for agility and bench press, and how is agility tested? i'm curious.

I believe the agility drill is a simple defensive shuffle drill back & forth across the foul lane. They are basically testing how quick (not fast) you are.

The bench press is 185 Lbs.

watching these kids on the court is a lot more valuable than combine stats... i defy anyone who watched USC play Harden's team last year to tell me Harden's a better athlete than Derozan.

Posted by orangeblobman:

what are the units for agility and bench press, and how is agility tested? i'm curious.

Strength was bench pressing max reps with 185(?).

The agility test is the one where you maneuver around 4 cones- it measures lateral movement, backpedalling, and forward movement. They undoubtedly got if from football.

I was stunned to see that Holiday beat Flynn on the agility test, since he is much taller and longer. Evans did not do well on the agility test either, and neither did DeRozan.

I don't think that DeRozan did any non-basketball training for the combine- his numbers were somewhat unimpressive.

Don't be overly impressed by Lawson and Curry on the bench presses. The bench press scores will generally see the guys with shorter arms lifting more- there are some body physics involved (More than just how high you have to lift!), and this is especially true if weights are relatively similar, I would think. Look at Eric Maynor who is built like a pole and only weighs about 165 LBS. His wingspan is only about .5 inches longer than his height, though, and he was able to do 8 reps in the bench press, while Evans, who weighs 221(??!!) but has a monster wingspan, could only do 7.

Harden's numbers are impressive because he has pretty long arms- and when you compare him to Evans, who is basically the same weight and height (Evans has a slightly longer wingspan), the strength difference is stunning. The same is true for DeRozan, when compared to Harden.


The results for DraftExprss's top thirty players on this link. I chose to have them ordered by size without shoes.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=2009&sort2=ASC&draft=30&pos=0&sort=2

Posted by Allanfan20:

Who said Harden is a better athlete?

it was suggested on another thread where the same numbers were posted... Ira also pointing out that Harden's a better athlete than he originally thought... i'm just saying, the numbers don't mean much... when u watch Harden on the court he's not especially explosive off the dribble, at least in the games i watched him play against USC last year... he got his shot stuffed easily on a number of occasions & had a hard time getting by his man off the dribble on iso's.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Paladin55:

Posted by TMS:

watching these kids on the court is a lot more valuable than combine stats... i defy anyone who watched USC play Harden's team last year to tell me Harden's a better athlete than Derozan.

I think it shows us which of those two have taken the concept of pre-draft training a little more seriously. DeRozan is in the same boat as Evans, in my opinion, while guys like Curry, Blair, Harden, and other have actually worked out hard to prepare for the combine and the workouts.

that might be a fair assessment, but on the other hand some guys just don't perform well in combine drills but show their true worth on the basketball court... i don't put too much weight into these combine stats as much as i do watching them in games & in highlight clips & comparing them to the other guys on the floor around them, how their speed compares to others, how much elevation they get on their shots, how they're able to get to the lane on the dribble, etc.

personally i don't think Derozan has work ethic issues, his game improved dramatically toward the end of the season & he really became his team's go to man in the biggest games they played last year... to me, that says a lot about his growth & development & i think that will continue into the NBA.

[Edited by - TMS on 06-04-2009 07:32 AM]

I agree that ultimately the only thing that counts is what you do on the floor, but...

I remember thinking that Tim Duncan was a soft player in college, despite being talented, and predicted that he was going to have a tough time in the NBA. They guy I remembered in college was not the rookie I saw in a Spur's uniform. The guy had worked out physically, not just played BB in the off season, and it was obvious that he had understood what you have to do in the NBA to be good and play above your "natural talent." I noticed two guys (I'm sure there were more), DeRozan and Mullens who had little definition in their arms, and to me that meant that they had not done anything with the weights- only BB related training.

Back when I started following the game (late 60's) you rarely saw guys who obviously hit the weights- now it is a necessity. You still have to show your stuff on the floor, but why not maximize your talent (David Lee take note) and put yourself in a better position to compete with the big boys. The recent reports about Mullens and Daye having trouble in the Minnesota workout says a lot to me- both are guys who need to put on some muscle.



By the way...they HAVE to change the combine back to an event where players actually compete 5/5 or 3/3, and there should be some kind of contract reduction penalty if they choose not to compete.

[Edited by - Paladin55 on 06-04-2009 10:52 AM]

i didn't watch the combines but undefined arms is not what i've seen when i've been watching this kid play... he looks pretty damn cut to me, & his bodyfat is way low compared to other guys in this draft even on those measurement charts... something like 4% bodyfat or something i think from my last recollection, whereas Harden was measured at something like 10% bodyfat.

i'm just talking about definition of his musculature... these are professional athletes, not regular people like u or me, so what's healthy for them is not necessarily the same as what's healthy for us.

you'all sound like a bunch of chicks who are all complaining about whose ass looks fatter in their new pair of jeans.

Posted by TMS:

i didn't watch the combines but undefined arms is not what i've seen when i've been watching this kid play... he looks pretty damn cut to me, & his bodyfat is way low compared to other guys in this draft even on those measurement charts... something like 4% bodyfat or something i think from my last recollection, whereas Harden was measured at something like 10% bodyfat.

Those arms sure did not do too much bench pressing at the combine.

I do body fat tests on my wrestlers all the time- low body fat does not have to be equated with strength, and when your body fat is very low, you tend to look more cut. DeRozan came in at 211 lbs at 6'5.5" Harden came in at 222 at 6'5." Harden has the longer arms which would usually mean more trouble with bench pressing, yet he tripled DeRozan's numbers.

I don't mind DeRozan as a potential Knick pick, and can see his upside- I just wonder about why he is only willing to work out for certain teams- 8 & earlier (In fairness, for Harden it is 5 & earlier, but DeRozan has never been looked on as a lower 10 lottery pick by most BB pundits.), and why he seemingly came to the combine in less than spectacular athletic condition.

I have been brutal with Harden over his athleticism- he has seemingly done something in response to this perceived weakness of his, and if you look at the combine #'s you have to be impressed. He seems like an intelligent and proud kid, and his pre-combine program, whatever it was, made a difference. Compare him to Evans, whose athleticism so many drool over- Harden beats him hands down, at least in the combine numbers. Do we take the numbers as some kind of anomaly, or do they actually tell us something? To me they tell me more about work ethic and desire than anything else.

I would rather have seen actual competition among the players, but that is not what we ended up with. In fairness to DeRozan (or his agent), at least he was involved in the 3/3 drills. Harden did not do any of them, although even he did more than Thabeet.

In terms of what they do on the court- Harden had much more responsibility than DeRozan on his team. He was basically a PG and a SG. DeRozan rarely had to dribble the ball or make major decisions with it. At this point I cannot say who the better player will be in the future, although Harden is more NBA ready at this point.

[Edited by - Paladin55 on 06-04-2009 3:40 PM]