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MYTH: D'Antoni "gives a flying poo poo" about defense
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PresIke
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4/24/2009  2:41 PM
I'm jacking this edited post i made in the Steph Curry is entering the draft thread to bring this up for a thread of more focused discussion...

Okay, folks can certainly continue to believe that Mike D doesn't care about defense, but I contend this is either stated out of not hearing/seeing what he said, or selectively doing so. Throughout the season this idea that he doesn't care is clearly not what he said and expressed concern over all season long in various situations, during practice, games and after them in press conferences.

I'd be curious who folks who do think this actually consider to be a good defender on the Knicks, outside of jeffries, who destroys us on offense, and doesn't block shots for a guy his size, and maybe duhon and chandler?

gallo has some potential as a help defender, but he's not quick/especially laterally, and barely played.

hughes was better, and the team got better when he seemed to model defense, which leads to a major point...

you need players that can model defense, and it especially helps when the leader/best players play D.

Look at the Cavs and Celtics they are a perfect example of this. The coach, Doc Rivers, was the same on the team before when they were pitiful defensively, with a good number of the same players last year, but then adding 2 of the big 3, and Posey, considered a very good defender at his position. since lebron has really committed to defense, the Cavs are now a top defensive team.

the coach can only do so much. how does larry brown work more on charlotte than here? look at some of the top players from either team and tell me if we had the same level of commitment/ability from them (Steph, Craw, Curry) as they do (Oakafor, Wallace...both already considered good defenders)

more reason to show how this point about mike d is fallacy is that in the beginning of the season he used a clever motivational approach to get nate to use his strength, athleticism, to get steals rather than block shots. early on it worked, but nate, being who he has shown us to be at this point, was just not consistent with it, and was generally a very bad defender coming under screens, looking lost, or doing foolish things.

when you have a pile of doo doo, as you say, how does one expect to turn them all into flowers?

i don't know if lee will ever be a good defender too, but we have ZERO shot blocking ability, and at least two key rotation players who cause major problems on d, while not having one real shut down defender, so how the heck is a team like that to defend?

yes, d'antoni is a more offensive focused coach, but to say he doesn't care about defense i contend to be total myth.

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-24-2009 2:44 PM]
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PresIke
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4/24/2009  2:51 PM
So a team like the Spurs can have Bruce Bowen, who at least can nail a 3, start, because not only does the rest of the team plays hard and is very good/great defensively, but you have superstar scoring/creative caliber talent at 3 positions.

Or Verajao on the Cavs, when you have Lebron James.

Or Kendric Perkins when you have KG, Allen and Pierce.

Who do the Knicks have that is even remotely close to being superstar, and very good defender.

Teams like the Pistons just had a TEAM that all could score, were mature, and defend.

The Sixers the past two years, have Dalembert roaming the middle, and Iggy, arguably their best player, plays D, and Young who's considered good too, is one of their leading scorers.
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PresIke
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4/24/2009  2:57 PM
In other words, you need players that are willing to work or show good potential on defending before you can start anywhere.

Nash is just not a great defender, and Amare wasn't either...and they won 60 games, almost making the finals.

Check this bit from earlier in the year in the Bergen Co. Record about what I would speculate might be why Mike D and Amare had some issues:
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/comments/stoudemire-rumors-201787.html
There's little talk because a source familiar with the team's thinking says D'Antoni and Co. aren't exactly fond of Stoudemire, particularly his defense and overall focus. They're even less interested if getting him means surrendering David Lee - unless they also could shed either Eddy Curry's or Stephon Marbury's salary in a deal. One Internet report "suggested" a Lee-Marbury-Nate Robinson package for Stoudemire and ..

And D'Antoni doesn't care about D?

Give D'Antoni enough right pieces, who can defend and score and we're a title contender year after year.

The best example of his system with guys that defend was the USA Olympic team this summer.

To me a team with a less talent, but 1-2 superstars is going to be champion or in the finals soon enough.

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-24-2009 2:57 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-24-2009 2:58 PM]
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djsunyc
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4/24/2009  3:13 PM
riley proved himself in ny and then miami after the lakers.

imho, d'antoni still has to prove himself after pheonix.
PresIke
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4/24/2009  3:27 PM
Perhaps, but Riley also stepped into much better situations.

Ewing in his prime
Alonzo as well

Who both were top defenders at center, which was considered THE key position to have a top player in those days before all of the new rules came into effect that make centers a team of brutes, which is what Riley had and the team's created in both situations, a little less important.

D'Antoni doesn't even have a 'Zo on this team.

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-24-2009 3:27 PM]
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PresIke
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4/24/2009  3:32 PM
What did Riley "prove" after Zo declined?

The team stunk for two years

they won 36 and 26 games.

Then...

whadya know...

draft Butler, Wade...

pick up Odom on the cheap...

these are FRONT OFFICE decisions, not coaching, as was turning Butler & Odom into Shaq.

Riley leaves the court, Stan Van Gundy coaches the team to a winning season with Wade as a rookie, and then almost 60 wins, and then Riley comes in and snatches the glory the next season.

I am beginning to think we are underrating circumstances that are beyond the control of a coach.
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PresIke
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4/24/2009  3:43 PM
The point is the Knicks have not had any major prospects to be drafted for years.

Brown was a disaster here, but he has once again "proved" himself with a team that has better defenders, and then added good "any system" rotation guys like Diaw & Bell (who have proven themselves as such) even though they didn't even make the playoffs.

Riley didn't win the title with the Knicks, but that doesn't go as a black mark on his record, when his decision to run Starks so long in game 7 might have cost the Knicks a title?

What about Jeff Van Gundy? How come the team kept succeeding with him? Only Nelson struggled, but that's because he tried to take a winning team and change the system too much. Van Gundy just went back to what it was before, and had the players already and knew the system that Riley used. Riley deserves credit for observing the Pistons and trends in the NBA then, and Grunfeld for building a team that fit that style. They just didn't get that other star they needed to compliment Ewing. Otherwise we might have beaten Jordan (another big problem, of course).

Van Gundy couldn't get the Rockets with two superstars in their primes to win anything, but he's still a genius to some. The problem, I think was a number of reasons, but McGrady, especially, I think was not a guy to fit in with Van Gundy's slow it down systemand the rest of the team stunk. Too bad he wasn't on the Suns. Orlando had it right with he and Grant Hill if they played an uptempo game, they just got screwed with injuries.

D'Antoni takes the Suns to a better record than Houston, makes Nash into a 2 time MVP, and might have been robbed of a Finals appearance in that one season in the conference finals against the Spurs, with players that did not have good defenders outside of Bell (a reality and problem around the league for most teams now-a-days), and then lost Amare, but still managed to win and he hasn't proven himself?

I'd like to see D'Antoni coach a team that either has better overall defender, or a real star.

Put him as coach of the Celtics and tell me he won't win a title?

Brown was able to help Detroit because they had a mix of players that fit his system.

The Knicks do not have the right players just yet to fit his system, and the Suns with Kerr were set in what some here still think about the grind-it-out style...which didn't work out too well for them this year. They still have the wrong players in Nash, amongst others, and a broken down Shaq. Kerr is terrible, imho, and too backward in his thinking.

Let's see when D'Antoni has a team he really wants, which is something I am glad to say I think Walsh is trying to do.

I'll surely be there ready to talk about this again with his detractors, and admit mistakes he made (as I have regarding my assessment of Isiah as coach and GM when I felt he was REALLY hurting the team).

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-24-2009 3:45 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-24-2009 3:47 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-24-2009 3:49 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-24-2009 3:51 PM]
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holfresh
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4/24/2009  4:40 PM

Bro, players who played for him says they don't practice D...LeBron joked once this season that they Knicks don't play or care about D...His teams usually gives up the most points per game, u can say style of play...but it is, what it is..He doesn't pull players for not playing D...U gonna agrue against that...
Paladin55
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4/24/2009  5:08 PM
Riley's First Year With Knicks

2 Greg Anthony
35 James Donaldson
41 Patrick Eddie
33 Patrick Ewing
13 Mark Jackson
14 Anthony Mason
44 Tim McCormick
32 Xavier McDaniel
4 Carlton McKinney
34 Charles Oakley
23 Brian Quinnett
3 John Starks
55 Kiki Vandeweghe
21 Gerald Wilkins
20 Kennard Winchester

Riley's Last Year With Knicks

50 Greg Anthony
4 Anthony Bonner
7 Doug Christie
44 Hubert Davis
33 Patrick Ewing
35 Ron Grandison
11 Derek Harper
40 Greg Kite
14 Anthony Mason
34 Charles Oakley
25 Doc Rivers (injured and on his way out, though)
54 Charles Smith (not a top level defender, but had decent lateral movement for a 6'10" player, however soft his offensive game was)
3 John Starks
21 Charlie Ward
32 Herb Williams
2 Monty William

I boldfaced the guys I considered to be good defensive players or "tough guys." Riley always had a good foundation of defensive minded players on the Knicks. To be honest, he realized this and played to their strengths, but in his final season, putting a lineup of Harper, Starks, Mason, Oakley, and Ewing on the floor would have been one of the better defensive lineups you would ever see in the game.

Nevertheless, Walsh (someday Mullin???) and MDA, as they add the players they want and believe will brings the Knicks success, will have to take credit for building the roster they want, and if that roster does not play D, MDA should bear some of the blame because he had a voice in designing the team from the ground up.

[Edited by - Paladin55 on 04-24-2009 5:09 PM]
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Paladin55
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4/24/2009  5:48 PM
Posted by holfresh:


Bro, players who played for him says they don't practice D...LeBron joked once this season that they Knicks don't play or care about D...His teams usually gives up the most points per game, u can say style of play...but it is, what it is..He doesn't pull players for not playing D...U gonna agrue against that...

Some of his biggest moments of anger this year were directed at guys who did not play D, and I seem to recall him pulling a player out of the game or giving them less time in a particular game because of their D.

He is not a defensive achitect, and I think he should hire a real D coach to help players, but he has made many comments about the Knicks D, and their failure to play it properly.

Ironically, according to BB Reference.com, the Knicks had a better Defensive Rating (points allowed per 100 posessions) this year than Phoenix, and the Phoenix rating went from 16th under MDA to 26th this year. Of course the Knicks were only at the 23rd slot this year, but they were down 6 spots from last year.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Pharzeone
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4/24/2009  6:16 PM
Paladin, Riley acquired defensive players for his Knick team and remove guys who didn't contribute defensively like Jackson. D'Antoni does the opposite. Also, Riley is capable of adapting to the current players he has around him better than D'Antoni. When your coach says in pre-season that he will not change but the team has to adjust is your first hint that the coach maybe one dimensional. I think D'Antoni cares about defense but is clueless how to coach defense. Losing Weber to the Kings will hurt D'Antoni a lot.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Paladin55
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4/24/2009  7:33 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

Paladin, Riley acquired defensive players for his Knick team and remove guys who didn't contribute defensively like Jackson. D'Antoni does the opposite. Also, Riley is capable of adapting to the current players he has around him better than D'Antoni. When your coach says in pre-season that he will not change but the team has to adjust is your first hint that the coach maybe one dimensional. I think D'Antoni cares about defense but is clueless how to coach defense. Losing Weber to the Kings will hurt D'Antoni a lot.

I understand that there were some player changes- especially Jackson, but Riley began with a defensive framework of players that make the group MDA started with on the Knicks look like a bunch of children. He started with 2 young guards, Anthony and Starks, who had their problems as players, but were excellent and intense on the defensive end. He had a Hall of Fame center in Ewing, and in Oakley had had the ultimate blue collar banger. And what about a guy like Mason who was able to play almost every position on the court and could bang guys and lock down certain smaller players.

You don't think that MDA wouldn't die for an offensive/defensive stud iike Ewing, who in his youth run the floor, hit the J and also block shots, or a banger like Oakley who regulated in the lane and later improved his value by learning how to hit the midrange shot?

You also need leaders on your team who can lead by example and get into the face of players who are not pulling their weight on D. (Garnett proved the value of a team leader and made Allen and Pierce into better players.) What do you think Oakley, Jordan, Magic, Bird or Garnett would have said to Lee if they were on his team and Lee had moved away from a player going to the basket instead trying to block the shot or knock the guy onto his butt?

I think that if MDA came to a young veteran Knicks team with the talent that Riley came into with the Knicks, he might have made some tweaks in his system to allow for the skills of the excellent playes he found in his lap. What did MDA inherit in terms of talent? Do you think it was of the same quality that Riley found himself with when he came to the Knicks?

There were very few "keepers" on the Knicks that Walsh and MDA inherited from Thomas- no functioning center or rational PG, and certainly no team defense. Think about it- at or after 2010 you might only have 2 or 3 players, at most, from your 07-08 team playing on the Knicks! An amazing turnover, and indicative of a poorly designed team by Isiah Thomas.

I am not saying that MDA is some kind of defensive genius, but in terms of overall success, he did a pretty good job on a Phoenix team that had a 6'8.5" guy playing center most of the time, and I expect that he communicates to players and coaches his basic concepts about D, while leaving the specifics to his coaches. Perhaps he needs a dedicated D coach who can shape up the team, but as I said above, I think what he really needs the kind of floor leadership that he simply does not have on the Knicks at this time. Hopefully, both MDA and Walsh will recognize this need and address it at some point.

[Edited by - Paladin55 on 04-24-2009 7:40 PM]
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PresIke
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4/24/2009  7:55 PM
Phar, I guess i'm not clear where D'antoni had a record of "acquiring," (since he isn't the Prez/GM) or even having influence in getting the opposite of players that play D?

If anything the Hughes deal was intended as such. Harrington used to be a good defender, but he isn't consistent anymore.

Almost all of the deals we've made thus far have been cap oriented.

Why does Jeffries play if he can't score?

Anyway, he has said they need players that play more D, all last year

As for Riley, adapted? Easy when you have been coaching 3 teams with multiple HOFs (well, only one on the Knicks). I'm not saying Riles is not a great coach, either.

Btw, D'Antoni DID adapt as the season went on, since the system had to be abandoned.

Faith in a system is very much how success works in the world in many places.

Maybe he isn't the top defensive coach in the league, but coaching is more complex than being good at defense. Plus, his offensive system is brilliantly designed to maximize performance on offense in a league that increasingly wants the game to go in that direction.

As we can see with trends, hard-ass 100% tough-love, pick-yourself by your bootstraps and STFU defensive "guru" coaches are passe, and it's getting more and more fruitless to keep hoping things will return to that period again, or expect getting a coach like that is going to no matter how much we vent about it.

Get players that commit to defense at least a little bit, and are creative/good at scoring and add D'Antoni's system and you're a top team.

Why was the word today was coach K quoted saying he thinks D'Antoni should be the next coach of the 2012 Olympics team, and said he was a huge reason for the team's success this time around if he can't be seen as a top coach in this league?

[Edited by - PresIke on 04-24-2009 7:57 PM]
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Pharzeone
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4/24/2009  8:02 PM
Dude, you keep mentioning players that Riley acquire. He acquired Mason. He acquired X-Man. Starks was little used under Stu Jackson the season before. MacLeod used Starks a little more when he took over but Wilkins still got most of the time. This is where myth about Riley walking into a great situation comes from. That roster was horrible with the exception of Ewing and Oakley. It was old and breaking down. Riley worked on designing that team during his time off. I still remember him co-hosting the 91 TNT playoff show and talking to Ernie about how he was working on the pieces. Joking telling Ewing that he is going to get him some help. BTW, Greg Anthony didn't get a lot of minutes his rookie year. He had a horrible rookie campaign and couldn't get minutes.


Roberson and Duhon were guys that MDA wanted to add to the team in his vision of reshaping it. No where did he stress defense. As a matter of fact, the question was brought up to Walsh about why no shot blockers were brought in to SL and Walsh admitted that was a mistake. They went all in on offense. They spent the majority of the pre-season working on his SSOL. Even his former Sun players claim that he didn't spend a lot of time focus on defense. This isn't something new about D'Antoni. He has been accused of not stressing defense during his tenure as a head coach in the NBA including his Denver days.
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Paladin55
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4/24/2009  8:16 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

Dude, you keep mentioning players that Riley acquire. He acquired Mason. He acquired X-Man. Starks was little used under Stu Jackson the season before. MacLeod used Starks a little more when he took over but Wilkins still got most of the time. This is where myth about Riley walking into a great situation comes from. That roster was horrible with the exception of Ewing and Oakley. It was old and breaking down. Riley worked on designing that team during his time off. I still remember him co-hosting the 91 TNT playoff show and talking to Ernie about how he was working on the pieces. Joking telling Ewing that he is going to get him some help. BTW, Greg Anthony didn't get a lot of minutes his rookie year. He had a horrible rookie campaign and couldn't get minutes.


Roberson and Duhon were guys that MDA wanted to add to the team in his vision of reshaping it. No where did he stress defense. As a matter of fact, the question was brought up to Walsh about why no shot blockers were brought in to SL and Walsh admitted that was a mistake. They went all in on offense. They spent the majority of the pre-season working on his SSOL. Even his former Sun players claim that he didn't spend a lot of time focus on defense. This isn't something new about D'Antoni. He has been accused of not stressing defense during his tenure as a head coach in the NBA including his Denver days.

Nobody knew how good Mason might be- he had shown nothing of the all around player he turned out to be in his first 2 years. Knicks got lucky IMHO. Xavier was more a tough guy than a great defensive player, but he did set a tone that fit well with Oakley.

I disagree about Anthony. Riley never liked rookies, if I remember. He gave Anthony some good minutes with Jackson and he almost had 4 APG. Anthony was not the guy they expected, but he held his own that year.

Yeah, Roberson was a horrible pickup, especiallys since we might have taken Wafer (or was he just on loan in the SL?), but Duhon was probably the best PG we could pick up, although I thought he played better D than he showed us this year.
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holfresh
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4/24/2009  8:17 PM
Posted by Paladin55:
Posted by holfresh:


Bro, players who played for him says they don't practice D...LeBron joked once this season that they Knicks don't play or care about D...His teams usually gives up the most points per game, u can say style of play...but it is, what it is..He doesn't pull players for not playing D...U gonna agrue against that...

Some of his biggest moments of anger this year were directed at guys who did not play D, and I seem to recall him pulling a player out of the game or giving them less time in a particular game because of their D.

He is not a defensive achitect, and I think he should hire a real D coach to help players, but he has made many comments about the Knicks D, and their failure to play it properly.

Ironically, according to BB Reference.com, the Knicks had a better Defensive Rating (points allowed per 100 posessions) this year than Phoenix, and the Phoenix rating went from 16th under MDA to 26th this year. Of course the Knicks were only at the 23rd slot this year, but they were down 6 spots from last year.


David Lee could possibly the worst defensive PF ever to wear a Knickd uniform...Have u ever see DLee benched for not playing defense???




[Edited by - holfresh on 04-24-2009 8:19 PM]
djsunyc
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4/24/2009  8:40 PM
basically the same knick team in 1989/90 squeaked into the 8th seed and got swept by chicago.

riley comes aboard, adds xman and greg anthony and won 50 games and pushed the bulls to 7. that's a HUGE improvement.

there has been really no improvement this season - that's why i said the jury is still out on d'antoni.
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4/24/2009  9:08 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by Paladin55:
Posted by holfresh:


Bro, players who played for him says they don't practice D...LeBron joked once this season that they Knicks don't play or care about D...His teams usually gives up the most points per game, u can say style of play...but it is, what it is..He doesn't pull players for not playing D...U gonna agrue against that...

Some of his biggest moments of anger this year were directed at guys who did not play D, and I seem to recall him pulling a player out of the game or giving them less time in a particular game because of their D.

He is not a defensive achitect, and I think he should hire a real D coach to help players, but he has made many comments about the Knicks D, and their failure to play it properly.

Ironically, according to BB Reference.com, the Knicks had a better Defensive Rating (points allowed per 100 posessions) this year than Phoenix, and the Phoenix rating went from 16th under MDA to 26th this year. Of course the Knicks were only at the 23rd slot this year, but they were down 6 spots from last year.


David Lee could possibly the worst defensive PF ever to wear a Knickd uniform...Have u ever see DLee benched for not playing defense???




[Edited by - holfresh on 04-24-2009 8:19 PM]

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PresIke
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4/24/2009  9:28 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

basically the same knick team in 1989/90 squeaked into the 8th seed and got swept by chicago.

riley comes aboard, adds xman and greg anthony and won 50 games and pushed the bulls to 7. that's a HUGE improvement.

there has been really no improvement this season - that's why i said the jury is still out on d'antoni.

again, with Patrick Ewing in his prime.

Where's our Patrick Ewing? and rookies like Starks and Mason?

c'mon mayynnn..
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Pharzeone
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4/24/2009  9:39 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by djsunyc:

basically the same knick team in 1989/90 squeaked into the 8th seed and got swept by chicago.

riley comes aboard, adds xman and greg anthony and won 50 games and pushed the bulls to 7. that's a HUGE improvement.

there has been really no improvement this season - that's why i said the jury is still out on d'antoni.

again, with Patrick Ewing in his prime.

Where's our Patrick Ewing? and rookies like Starks and Mason?

c'mon mayynnn..

Mason was a castoff and a find by Riley. The guy was serious about his new gig in NY. D'Antoni approach it in a nonchalant manner. Stating that he wasn't really involve in selecting Gallinari. Are you kidding me? Your future player and you had no input in how he would fit. Grabbing Roberson because you like what you saw of him in one game two years ago. Taking on Duhon based on what his college coach told him during Olympics practices. Different approaches were taken by the two men.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
MYTH: D'Antoni "gives a flying poo poo" about defense

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