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Here's some REALISTIC players in the draft that can help us improve right away IMO.
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Finestrg
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3/30/2009  12:23 AM
We're not getting Blake Griffin, probably won't be able to trade up to get Jordan Hill or Thabeet and DeRozan will probably be gone by the time we select. Now if it works out like that, here's what I'd look to do:

(1) First, lose all of these games the rest of the way. If they win another game this season, they're retarded.

(2) Grab Jeff Teague with our own pick. And who knows, he may not even be there when we pick (trouble seeing Golden State passing him up) but if he is, you get him. I see this draft as an excellent opportunity to really upgrade the PG spot and pound for pound, Teague might be the most talented out of the top PGs available with the most upside. Wake had a so-so 2nd half then layed an egg in the tournament but make no mistake about it, when Wake was right early on and on top of the world, this guy looked like the best guard in America. He was hitting 3s all over the place at a very high %, got to the rim at will with unbelievable quickness and a tremendous 1st step and showed off-the-charts athleticism and hops as he even threw down the occasional dunk on guys and blocked the occasional shot or two. Eric Maynor looks like he'll be a well-rounded, steady NBA PG and a nice safe pick and Willie Warren's big for the position & has good talent (though he was awful today against UNC, with less responsibility playing off the ball no less - I was very surprised). I've heard good things about Rubio and Jennings though I've never really seen either play for long stretches so it's tough to comment. I am skeptical though - Jennings' overall play was so-so as he had his problems adjusting to playing overseas this season - he's actually gone on the record as saying he may have made a mistake even going to Europe - dude wasn't even getting paid on time by his club and the paycheck was the biggest reason he decided to go play there. As for the rest of the lot - Flynn, Lawson, Collison, Holiday, Mills, Sherron Collins - seen 'em all and they're all solid but they're a cut below. Teague's my guy. We grab Teague, we can cut Duhon loose. Big upgrade over Duhon anyway, which is obvious, and we'll save the money we would've had to blow on re-uping Duhon. Chris Duhon, to me, is not worth $6-7 mil. a year to retain, I'm sorry guys. Nice player and all but we could certainly do better...

(3) Through any means possible (resigning Lee and Robinson early then trading them for a package of expiring veteran talent and a decent pick or two, getting Dolan to cough up some money for an extra pick or two, trading a future pick or two for a current pick/picks, etc.) I want DeJuan Blair AND Sam Young. If we dealt Lee, Blair could slide right in and pick up where Lee left off. I think he'll be better than Lee anyway to be honest. And Young will be a good NBA player. Whether or not he'll be a star, that's debatable, but he's a starting caliber NBA SF right now in my estimation with a highly advanced game. Ditto Blair - he's a starting PF in the NBA right away and appears to still have some upside and room to get even better.

(4) Continue to look to add lower picks any way possible to improve team depth. Look at guys like 6'9" 220 lb. Taj Gibson for some seasoned, 2-way interior play off the bench and 6'5" KC Rivers for some 2-way play on the perimeter at the 2. Both guys are projected to go low, anywhere from early 2nd round to undrafted depending on what mock you look at, but both guys have evolved, NBA-ready games IMO. Like Blair and Young, to a lesser degree Gibson and Rivers are ready to play in the NBA right now & would really strengthen our club on both sides of the ball. I was at the Orlando game the other night - Howard was great but it was little-known Courtney Lee who killed us in the end. KC Rivers could have that type of impact in the pros. I could definitely see that...

(5) If Nate gets traded, I'd like to give guys like Jack McClinton and AD Vassallo a look. If either of these guys went undrafted and I'm Donnie, I approach their agents immediately and offer to bring them to camp with a legit chance to make the club. McClinton's strong and quick & could fill Nate's role as an instant offense backcourt guy along with giving us another halfway decent ballhandler who has enough game to fill in at the point for limited minutes and Vassallo's a 6'6" SG who can really do a lot of things for you - he's smooth, he's got plus size for the position, he can get to the rim, handle it a little and he can flat out shoot the ball. I see a lot of Reggie Theus, Francisco Garcia and Rudy Fernandez in this guy... I think both McClinton and Vassallo have enough game to play and contribute in the NBA.

Would love to add all of these guys to be honest. It'll be tough but for the most part, it might be doable. Unlike guys like Griffin, Hill or Thabeet, these are realistic targets for us, guys we have a shot at. A lot of people are down on this draft but I see some very good talent here and if we think big and outside the box a little we could really improve our overall depth and talent base quickly, improve our flexibility and at the same time make it attractive for a potential 2010 FA. When you consider we have 2 good assets we can dangle in Lee and Nate that we can probably get something decent for and then turn around and replace (and probably upgrade) along with Dolan's deep pockets when most all other teams are probably looking to cut costs with the bad economy, we have a chance to really do something here. Here's hoping Donnie and co. have their eye on a lot of different players here and chose to add multiple players through the draft.

[Edited by - finestrg on 03-30-2009 01:14 AM]
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TMS
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3/30/2009  5:49 AM
If Griffin, Hill, Thabeet, Jennings & DeRozan are gone by the time we pick, we should trade down & pick up more depth at multiple positions IMO... picking up a C like Mullens & a SG like Dionte Christmas would be fine by me & both could be easily gotten later in the 1st round.

[Edited by - TMS on 03-30-2009 02:50 AM]
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Finestrg
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3/30/2009  8:45 AM
Posted by TMS:

If Griffin, Hill, Thabeet, Jennings & DeRozan are gone by the time we pick, we should trade down & pick up more depth at multiple positions IMO... picking up a C like Mullens & a SG like Dionte Christmas would be fine by me & both could be easily gotten later in the 1st round.

[Edited by - TMS on 03-30-2009 02:50 AM]

My feeling is all the guys you mentioned may be gone by the time we pick around 9, 10. But yeah, trading down is another good option I wasn't even thinking about. If everything stayed as is with the draft positioning, say we traded down slightly with either Indiana or NJ, threw in some cash and exchanged 1st rounders and also grabbed their 2nd rounder. That could be a nice option to turn our pick into two picks. Personally I'd like to stand pat and try like heck to grab Teague provided Golden State doesn't grab him first (if they remain ahead of us, I don't see how they pass on a point with Teague's talent - Nellie doesn't like Crawford & hated Williams, Ellis isn't a PG and guys like DeMarcus Nelson and CJ Watson are backups). But if he slips, we'd have a chance to upgrade arguably the most important spot on the floor, the point, with a player who has star potential IMO. If not, there's alway guys like Eric Maynor or Willie Warren, though I think Teague has the best upside among the three. But overall, we're more or less on the same page - using this draft to add more depth at multiple positions is the way to go IMHO. I mean anything can happen. Could we wind up trading up come draft night, sure. But at this stage, guys like Griffin, Hill, DeRozan, etc... just don't feel realistic. I think those top guys are pipe dreams for us. But that doesn't mean we can't improve by adding some of the good talent that will still be on the board. This draft is a lot deeper than people think. There will be a lot of talent on the board, a lot of experienced talent, that can help us provided we're looking to go that route.
franco12
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3/30/2009  8:51 AM
I would not trade down- I would simply buy picks.

There are at least three lower first round picks owned by lottery teams that, given the state of the economy and small market teams, we should be able to buy.
TMS
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3/30/2009  9:07 AM
Posted by franco12:

I would not trade down- I would simply buy picks.

There are at least three lower first round picks owned by lottery teams that, given the state of the economy and small market teams, we should be able to buy.

we don't have that many roster spots freed up for next season that will enable us to simply buy multiple extra picks... as it stands now we got 8 players already under contract for next season, & depending on what we do w/Nate & Lee we might already have 10... throw in the lottery pick we already own & that makes 11, so even adding 1 more pick should we trade down might even be stretching it... the Knicks aren't gonna spend all that extra money on buying extra picks later in the 1st round & signing them to guaranteed contracts unless some contracts are jettisoned this offseason IMO, & that seems like an unlikely scenario unless Nate or Lee are 1 of those contracts that are jettisoned because Donnie is particularly interested in not taking on any added longterm cap until 2010.
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BRIGGS
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3/30/2009  9:20 AM
I would not trade down.

I'm looking at 4 players with our lottery pick and I believe we can get 1 of them.

Obviously Blake Griffin
Tyreke Evans
Demar Derozan
and Im adding from my top 10 Craig Brackins. He needs to add 10 pounds but he is the kind of 4 man that will do very well in this system. He's very skilled and is an excellent scorer from a variety of angles post out to three. This is the athletic mobile 4 man. He adds length scoring ability he can handle at 6-10 pass score rebound and defend. He just fits the system better than other players. Putting on 10-12 pounds is much easier than teaching the skills he already possess's. A lesson learned from bypassing Brook Lopez albeit from the 4 slot--this kid is really skilled and 6-10--he needs the 10-12 pounds but he has everything else.

I think if we are picking 8 that one of these 4 players will be there.
RIP Crushalot😞
JohnWallace44
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3/30/2009  10:01 AM
There hasn't been many opportunities to see Brackins, but he is a tall, skinny ZBo to me, which is really good. I would be down with a Brackins selection. He seems like an Isiah player to me.

Here's the thing though. When I think about drafting a Brackins, he's super skilled on offense, but he does not look like a natural defender.

Let's see what happens with Sanders now that his coach left, but somehow, if you get Brackins, you've got to get a center for the Knicks whose main objective is defense and rebounding.

So on the plus side, I think you'd have a go to, impact offensive force that could score from a lot of different areas on the floor.

One the negative side, you'd have to get a defender to pair with him unless I'm totally misreading what I saw of him. He doesn't look interested on D to me. Also, you'd be skipping out on selecting a lead guard in a year where there's a whole mess of them and we've needed one forever. (I don't see Nate and Brackins coexisting)

Duhon
Hughes
Chandler
Brackins
Jujan Johnson

Bench:
Al
Gallo
Jeffries
Simms
Jerrells


Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
joec32033
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3/30/2009  11:19 AM
Backcourt-

James Harden.
Ty Lawson.
Wayne Ellington.

Borderline on Gerald Henderson.

Frontcort-

Hansborough.
Pat Patterson.

Give me one FC player and one BC player of the guys I mentioned and I'm happy.
~You can't run from who you are.~
JohnWallace44
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3/30/2009  11:37 AM
Posted by joec32033:

Backcourt-

James Harden.
Ty Lawson.
Wayne Ellington.

Borderline on Gerald Henderson.

Frontcort-

Hansborough.
Pat Patterson.

Give me one FC player and one BC player of the guys I mentioned and I'm happy.
If Walsh has a brain, you're not going to be happy.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
joec32033
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3/30/2009  12:38 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by joec32033:

Backcourt-

James Harden.
Ty Lawson.
Wayne Ellington.

Borderline on Gerald Henderson.

Frontcort-

Hansborough.
Pat Patterson.

Give me one FC player and one BC player of the guys I mentioned and I'm happy.
If Walsh has a brain, you're not going to be happy.

Well, at least you contributed to your post count with that. How about you explain? We need a 2 guard and a center. We also need a clutch go to guy. Getting those guys clutch type of guys in the post is difficult. Harden reminds me of Raja Bell/Jimmy Jackson later in his career. Clutch player defender. Solid not spectacular. Ellington is another pure 2 who can defend. Lawson is clutch and a PG to replace Duhon if we are going to trade/let him go later on.

Most of the front court guys are (other than Griffin) are fitting into that DeAndre Jordan/Anthony Randolph type of mold where they have ultra high ceilings but are also major projects. You may have to replace Lee at PF(Gallo may need another year or two to actually develop).

One other guy is Jordan Hill, he is the Amare type that MD likes at C-IMO- but probably will not be there for us.

I think it is important to give a strong look to Joe Crawford to see if he can handle being a starting 2 guard considering he tore up D-League. If you can plug him into that 2 guard spot, Will Chan manning that 3 spot-a la Marion's versatility- and you can draft Lawson and pick up a later pick (Nate??) and grab a project center/PF.

~You can't run from who you are.~
JohnWallace44
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3/30/2009  1:18 PM
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by joec32033:

Backcourt-

James Harden.
Ty Lawson.
Wayne Ellington.

Borderline on Gerald Henderson.

Frontcort-

Hansborough.
Pat Patterson.

Give me one FC player and one BC player of the guys I mentioned and I'm happy.
If Walsh has a brain, you're not going to be happy.

Well, at least you contributed to your post count with that. How about you explain? We need a 2 guard and a center. We also need a clutch go to guy. Getting those guys clutch type of guys in the post is difficult. Harden reminds me of Raja Bell/Jimmy Jackson later in his career. Clutch player defender. Solid not spectacular. Ellington is another pure 2 who can defend. Lawson is clutch and a PG to replace Duhon if we are going to trade/let him go later on.

Most of the front court guys are (other than Griffin) are fitting into that DeAndre Jordan/Anthony Randolph type of mold where they have ultra high ceilings but are also major projects. You may have to replace Lee at PF(Gallo may need another year or two to actually develop).

One other guy is Jordan Hill, he is the Amare type that MD likes at C-IMO- but probably will not be there for us.

I think it is important to give a strong look to Joe Crawford to see if he can handle being a starting 2 guard considering he tore up D-League. If you can plug him into that 2 guard spot, Will Chan manning that 3 spot-a la Marion's versatility- and you can draft Lawson and pick up a later pick (Nate??) and grab a project center/PF.


My bad, I just think that saying you'll take the stars off of UNC and Kentucky's teams is pretty much discounting all of the opinions of the media's draft gurus, and the wannabe gurus on this site (including myself).

PsychoT is not a difference maker. He'll be lucky to have Balkman's career.
Ellington's a good shooter. If we can pick him up with an early 2nd rounder great.
Patterson's a good toughness guy, doesn't fit the offense if you want him at the 4.
Harden won't be available where we pick, not sure if he fits here anyway.

These guys will be gone by the time we pick: Griffin - Rubio - Evans - Thabeet - Harden - Hill

So the players that we'll be looking at in reality are as follows;

Pure Points - Jennings, Teague, Maynor,
Combo Guards - Holiday, Warren (says he's staying at OU), Curry (says 53% staying)
Guards - Henderson
Combo Wing - Derozan, TWilliams, Buddinger
Small Forward - Aminu
Combo Forward - Earl Clark
Big Forward - Brackins, Johnson, Patterson
Centers - Mullens, Monroe

There shouldn't be anyone else in the discussion other than these guys above.

The lower level guys that we could potentially try to pick up late are;
Backcourt - Mills, Calathes(probably staying), Sam Young, Christmas
Bigs - Jujan Johnson, Jordan, Blair, Damion James, James Johnson, Larry Sanders (says he's staying, but coach just left)

If we don't come out of this draft with either a point or a center to anchor the team, then you'd have to consider it a failure. Brackins by himself would be a silly pick, because he seems one dimensional so far to me, but if he's drafted with a center that we can pick up late he makes a lot of sense too.

I think that at the end of the day it will come down to a choice between Holiday and Jennings as far as who the Knicks brass will be considering when they're on the clock.

Of course, we'll debate many others on this board.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TMS
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3/30/2009  1:31 PM
Posted by joec32033:

Backcourt-

James Harden.
Ty Lawson.
Wayne Ellington.

Borderline on Gerald Henderson.

Frontcort-

Hansborough.
Pat Patterson.

Give me one FC player and one BC player of the guys I mentioned and I'm happy.

Patterson's staying at Kentucky for another year... he was 1 of my top picks from the very beginning but looks like he won't be playing for us anytime soon since we don't have a pick next season.
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TMS
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3/30/2009  1:35 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I think that at the end of the day it will come down to a choice between Holiday and Jennings as far as who the Knicks brass will be considering when they're on the clock.

Of course, we'll debate many others on this board.

IMHO Holiday doesn't impress me at all... looks more like a Smush Parker type combo G to me... Jennings would be the guy i'd pick if i had that choice w/o a shadow of a doubt.
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JohnWallace44
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3/30/2009  2:51 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I think that at the end of the day it will come down to a choice between Holiday and Jennings as far as who the Knicks brass will be considering when they're on the clock.

Of course, we'll debate many others on this board.

IMHO Holiday doesn't impress me at all... looks more like a Smush Parker type combo G to me... Jennings would be the guy i'd pick if i had that choice w/o a shadow of a doubt.

I'm not saying they're my guys either, I just think that at the end of the day, where we'll be picking, trends, our needs, who's in charge, I think it will come down to those two.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
nyk4ever
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3/30/2009  9:27 PM
Great post Finest.

I haven't had a whole lot of time to respond to your draft posts recently, but I been reading them. Good stuff dude.
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Vmart
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3/30/2009  10:53 PM
I don't believe in trading down not when you can buy picks late in the first round. The Knicks should take Greg Monroe with their pick. I'm telling you guys this kid is talented and skilled. He has pf moves in a centers body, center will have trouble with him and Pf will have trouble with his size. Just look at multiple mock drafts and some have him going as high as 3 pick. If Rubio doesn't come to the nba your looking at the possible number two overall pick. If he falls to the Knicks we will have very few complaints. If his height is legit the Knicks should lock him up and promise him that they will take him. He will fit right into the MDA system.
joec32033
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4/1/2009  8:52 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by joec32033:
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by joec32033:

Backcourt-

James Harden.
Ty Lawson.
Wayne Ellington.

Borderline on Gerald Henderson.

Frontcort-

Hansborough.
Pat Patterson.

Give me one FC player and one BC player of the guys I mentioned and I'm happy.
If Walsh has a brain, you're not going to be happy.

Well, at least you contributed to your post count with that. How about you explain? We need a 2 guard and a center. We also need a clutch go to guy. Getting those guys clutch type of guys in the post is difficult. Harden reminds me of Raja Bell/Jimmy Jackson later in his career. Clutch player defender. Solid not spectacular. Ellington is another pure 2 who can defend. Lawson is clutch and a PG to replace Duhon if we are going to trade/let him go later on.

Most of the front court guys are (other than Griffin) are fitting into that DeAndre Jordan/Anthony Randolph type of mold where they have ultra high ceilings but are also major projects. You may have to replace Lee at PF(Gallo may need another year or two to actually develop).

One other guy is Jordan Hill, he is the Amare type that MD likes at C-IMO- but probably will not be there for us.

I think it is important to give a strong look to Joe Crawford to see if he can handle being a starting 2 guard considering he tore up D-League. If you can plug him into that 2 guard spot, Will Chan manning that 3 spot-a la Marion's versatility- and you can draft Lawson and pick up a later pick (Nate??) and grab a project center/PF.


My bad, I just think that saying you'll take the stars off of UNC and Kentucky's teams is pretty much discounting all of the opinions of the media's draft gurus, and the wannabe gurus on this site (including myself).

PsychoT is not a difference maker. He'll be lucky to have Balkman's career.
Ellington's a good shooter. If we can pick him up with an early 2nd rounder great.
Patterson's a good toughness guy, doesn't fit the offense if you want him at the 4.
Harden won't be available where we pick, not sure if he fits here anyway.

These guys will be gone by the time we pick: Griffin - Rubio - Evans - Thabeet - Harden - Hill

So the players that we'll be looking at in reality are as follows;

Pure Points - Jennings, Teague, Maynor,
Combo Guards - Holiday, Warren (says he's staying at OU), Curry (says 53% staying)
Guards - Henderson
Combo Wing - Derozan, TWilliams, Buddinger
Small Forward - Aminu
Combo Forward - Earl Clark
Big Forward - Brackins, Johnson, Patterson
Centers - Mullens, Monroe

There shouldn't be anyone else in the discussion other than these guys above.

The lower level guys that we could potentially try to pick up late are;
Backcourt - Mills, Calathes(probably staying), Sam Young, Christmas
Bigs - Jujan Johnson, Jordan, Blair, Damion James, James Johnson, Larry Sanders (says he's staying, but coach just left)

If we don't come out of this draft with either a point or a center to anchor the team, then you'd have to consider it a failure. Brackins by himself would be a silly pick, because he seems one dimensional so far to me, but if he's drafted with a center that we can pick up late he makes a lot of sense too.

I think that at the end of the day it will come down to a choice between Holiday and Jennings as far as who the Knicks brass will be considering when they're on the clock.

Of course, we'll debate many others on this board.

Sorry it took a while to get back to you. Great reasoning. I didn't just take the best players off those schools intentionally, it just worked out that way.

I thin that we have to get a player that IS going to contribute. Gallo is somewhat of a project. Chandler is somewhat of a project. I would take a solid guy that is a tier or two below in potential over a project at this point.

IMO we need players that are going to contribute cheap if the plan is 2010. I'm also tired of shoehorning guys into roles. You want a PG, take a point, not a 6-1 combo guard. Same if you want a SG. Don't take a guy that doesn't have the size to play the position.

In MikeD's offense, the combo guards are best used as sixth men off the bench(See Barbosa). That is Nate. Now Duhon may or may not be a starting PG(he is can't last a full season at starters minutes). Personally I agree that we need another pick.

Now if it was me I would try to get Carmelo from Denver. Maybe take KMart too since he strikes me as the type of player that would excel in Mike's offense. I would do this by packaging Nate and Lee(resigned), Cuttino's expiring, and another piece(Jared? Curry?)

When the draft comes around, I tae either a young PG to battle Duhon for the starting position(although, it seems the best drafted PG's are handed the reigns as soon as they get here turn out the best). Thing is in my eyes, we need a starting backcourt and a center. Young good starting PG's are harder to find than starting quality SG's in FA. So draft a PG and try to uncover a guy like Raja Bell(Philly found him) or Stephen Jackson(the Nets found him). I think it is important to look at Joe Crawford for this reason.

When it comes to the draft, I have moral reservations about watching the NCAA(the exploitation of their athletes is ridiculous) so I go mostly if not fully by scouting reports.

~You can't run from who you are.~
tkf
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4/1/2009  10:22 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

There hasn't been many opportunities to see Brackins, but he is a tall, skinny ZBo to me, which is really good. I would be down with a Brackins selection. He seems like an Isiah player to me.

Here's the thing though. When I think about drafting a Brackins, he's super skilled on offense, but he does not look like a natural defender.

Let's see what happens with Sanders now that his coach left, but somehow, if you get Brackins, you've got to get a center for the Knicks whose main objective is defense and rebounding.

So on the plus side, I think you'd have a go to, impact offensive force that could score from a lot of different areas on the floor.

One the negative side, you'd have to get a defender to pair with him unless I'm totally misreading what I saw of him. He doesn't look interested on D to me. Also, you'd be skipping out on selecting a lead guard in a year where there's a whole mess of them and we've needed one forever. (I don't see Nate and Brackins coexisting)

Duhon
Hughes
Chandler
Brackins
Jujan Johnson

Bench:
Al
Gallo
Jeffries
Simms
Jerrells


Gallo will not be a bench player. Dantoni was quoted in the post as having hopes of making this kid a star player for this team, so just forget drafting guys who are probably less talented trying to come in and take his spot... Not happenning...

I would love to get another pick, and with the second pick, look at a guy like terrance williams from Louisville.... Elite level athlete, needs to work on his handle and shot, but he defends, finishes big, passes, is very unselfish, a good ball mover and he can rebound. he is one of those guys that usually turn out being much better on the next level than they are in college...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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4/1/2009  10:54 AM
Papabear Says

We need a 7 footer who can defend the middle and block shots. Later for these point guards. Lots of them will be around. We need a big man who can shoot, pass, defend, block shots, be a leader.
David Lee and Nate unfortunatly are alread poisened in D'Antonios shoot first and fast system. Who knows If D'Antonio's don't do better next season he may be gone and Patrict Ewing may be in.
Papabear
JohnWallace44
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4/1/2009  2:45 PM
I wonder what pick we'd need to get in order to get Brackins and Maynor. Probably have to trade with Indiana or someone right below where we are now.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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Here's some REALISTIC players in the draft that can help us improve right away IMO.
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