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Trade Lee and Nate
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ItalianStallion
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3/22/2009  10:37 AM
IMO Lee and Robinson are overrated right now.

The pace of the Knicks offensive system (more possessions equals more points, rebounds etc.. per game) is padding their stats. In addition, most people don’t fully appreciate that neither plays any defense at all. Finally, neither is great in crunch time. Lee doesn't have the skillset to score when the Knicks really need a basket (though he does like to turn it over around then) and Nate is a role player that acts like he's a franchise player. He's constantly doing foolish things in crunch time as a result.

People love Lee because of his rebounding.

Did anyone notice that with Lee out, a seemingly weak rebounder like Chandler was able to get 12 rebounds last night? Several other Knicks also helped pick up the slack. Without their best rebounder, the Knicks outrebounded the Magic by 9.

Rebounding is obviously a critical part of winning, but in my opinion it’s probably the most fungible skill in all of basketball. Virtually every player on a team can up his rebounding productivity and make up most of the difference when the best rebounder goes down unless he's a freakishly good rebounder like Dennis Rodman.

Rebounding is overvalued on an “individual basis” despite being extremely important on a “team basis” and Lee is overrated because he's mostly a rebounder.

IMO, both would make excellent trade bait right now while their value is high.

Walsh did a great job to get rid of some overrated players with bad contracts. Let’s just hope he doesn’t screw it up by resigning two overrated current players to very big contracts. Neither Lee or Robinson is worth a dime over 5-6 million. They would be role players coming off the bench on any really good team. If they won't accept 5-6 million, the Knicks should move both!



[Edited by - SeattleStew on 03-22-2009 10:42 AM]

[Edited by - SeattleStew on 03-22-2009 10:43 AM]
AUTOADVERT
Vmart
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3/22/2009  11:34 AM
I totally agree with that. But trading Lee and Nate is not likely as the market will determine their price. There is a good chance the Knicks let them walk. Fans want compensation for them and most likely there will be no compensation. I for one would be ok if they both walked. I can't see the Knicks winning with the two and I can't see any difference in the team if they stay or go. The Knicks suck with them and most likely they will suck without them or get better.
islesfan
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3/22/2009  12:48 PM
Lee's rebounding "prowess" this season is largely buttressed by the fact that the Knicks don't have another even decent rebounder on the team. Plus the fact that he doesn't play defense because he's more interested in positioning himself for rebounds.

Lee averaged 9 rebs last year, which is a pretty good total. But that was with a really good rebounder in Zach Randolph playing next to him. For the first 11 games this season, with Randolph, Lee averaged under 7 boards a game. In the 10 games after Randolph was traded, Lee averaged 14.6 boards a game. Without another pretty good rebounder playing next to him and in a system that generates many more possessions, Lee's rebounding average is as inflated as it can get.

Same goes for Nate's scoring. Minutes + green light to shoot as much as he wants + nobody to compete for the ball on offense = inflated scoring.

I'd be much more impressed if these guys improved, not even excelled, at something that doesn't involve stat padding, defense.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Cookdcokehop
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3/22/2009  2:02 PM
I agree. I would rather keep Nate but I dont mind shipping them both off for prospects, picks and/or cash considerations.
FrenchKnicks
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3/22/2009  2:22 PM
Agree. We need to start from sractch. Fire Walsh too for getting us Gallinari (how can you draft a player whose eyes look so weird...)
Marv
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3/22/2009  2:33 PM
i vote for resigning them both. at the very least, you get a chance to see how they perform next year before deciding whether to keep them longer term or package either with jeffries or curry to gain an expiring and possibly a draft choice.
Vmart
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3/22/2009  2:47 PM
Posted by Marv:

i vote for resigning them both. at the very least, you get a chance to see how they perform next year before deciding whether to keep them longer term or package either with jeffries or curry to gain an expiring and possibly a draft choice.

Another next year and after that another and another, it goes on and on.

Marv
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3/22/2009  3:00 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by Marv:

i vote for resigning them both. at the very least, you get a chance to see how they perform next year before deciding whether to keep them longer term or package either with jeffries or curry to gain an expiring and possibly a draft choice.

Another next year and after that another and another, it goes on and on.

these guys both performed extremely well in mda's system and have improved each year of their careers. They haven’t been whit’s wrong with the knicks. If you bring them back one of two good things can happen – you get to see if they bring their games up yet another level and what they can achieve with a hopefully improved chandler, a hopefully recovered gallinari and our #1. or if you decide you want to go all in for 2010 you’ve increased your flexibility by being able to offer either or both of them to help dump jeffries and curry. How could this be bad?
Marv
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3/22/2009  3:07 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by Marv:

i vote for resigning them both. at the very least, you get a chance to see how they perform next year before deciding whether to keep them longer term or package either with jeffries or curry to gain an expiring and possibly a draft choice.

Another next year and after that another and another, it goes on and on.

also v, 10 days ago you started a thread proclaiming nate a superstar:
Posted by Vmart:

When a player can get his shot off on anyone and anytime do it consistently within the frame work of the team, then that player is a superstar. Nate's recent play has been of superstar caliber. You can see that he is putting fear in the eyes of opponents specifically late in games. The fact that he gets quality shots off and ability to get to his spots and create room, and at the same time have the ability to pass the ball is all superstar stuff. I don't think the Knicks can allow Nate to go, he is to good. Nate fits this system like a glove.

I never thought Nate could be this good. I thought of him as clown, not serious player, to a circus act but he has changed my mind. He is the closest thing the Knicks have to a superstar if he isn't already.

now you want to give him away for nothing? what happened during the 10 days (besides the ususal dissapointing late-season letdown from the knicks)?
Vmart
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3/22/2009  3:25 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by Marv:

i vote for resigning them both. at the very least, you get a chance to see how they perform next year before deciding whether to keep them longer term or package either with jeffries or curry to gain an expiring and possibly a draft choice.

Another next year and after that another and another, it goes on and on.

also v, 10 days ago you started a thread proclaiming nate a superstar:
Posted by Vmart:

When a player can get his shot off on anyone and anytime do it consistently within the frame work of the team, then that player is a superstar. Nate's recent play has been of superstar caliber. You can see that he is putting fear in the eyes of opponents specifically late in games. The fact that he gets quality shots off and ability to get to his spots and create room, and at the same time have the ability to pass the ball is all superstar stuff. I don't think the Knicks can allow Nate to go, he is to good. Nate fits this system like a glove.

I never thought Nate could be this good. I thought of him as clown, not serious player, to a circus act but he has changed my mind. He is the closest thing the Knicks have to a superstar if he isn't already.

now you want to give him away for nothing? what happened during the 10 days (besides the ususal dissapointing late-season letdown from the knicks)?

He is a superstar but he has limitations namely his height. If Nate was 6'6'' he would be in the company of LeBron, Wade and Kobe there is no doubt about it in my mind. I would like to keep him but reality of the situation is that the Knicks have to move on and he may command big money. I don't think the Knicks can get compensation for Nate or Lee for that matter. I don't think he would be deserving of big money I just don't see him as a big money player but he is very good superstar yes but elite superstar not there. The fact that he is small really hurts every shot has great degree of difficulty because of his stature.
JohnWallace44
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3/22/2009  3:28 PM
Lee's rebound rate has always been at the top of the league. His numbers aren't artificial, but at the same time he isn't winning us games, so its time to make a change.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Marv
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3/22/2009  3:34 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by Marv:

i vote for resigning them both. at the very least, you get a chance to see how they perform next year before deciding whether to keep them longer term or package either with jeffries or curry to gain an expiring and possibly a draft choice.

Another next year and after that another and another, it goes on and on.

also v, 10 days ago you started a thread proclaiming nate a superstar:
Posted by Vmart:

When a player can get his shot off on anyone and anytime do it consistently within the frame work of the team, then that player is a superstar. Nate's recent play has been of superstar caliber. You can see that he is putting fear in the eyes of opponents specifically late in games. The fact that he gets quality shots off and ability to get to his spots and create room, and at the same time have the ability to pass the ball is all superstar stuff. I don't think the Knicks can allow Nate to go, he is to good. Nate fits this system like a glove.

I never thought Nate could be this good. I thought of him as clown, not serious player, to a circus act but he has changed my mind. He is the closest thing the Knicks have to a superstar if he isn't already.

now you want to give him away for nothing? what happened during the 10 days (besides the ususal dissapointing late-season letdown from the knicks)?

He is a superstar but he has limitations namely his height. If Nate was 6'6'' he would be in the company of LeBron, Wade and Kobe there is no doubt about it in my mind. I would like to keep him but reality of the situation is that the Knicks have to move on and he may command big money. I don't think the Knicks can get compensation for Nate or Lee for that matter. I don't think he would be deserving of big money I just don't see him as a big money player but he is very good superstar yes but elite superstar not there. The fact that he is small really hurts every shot has great degree of difficulty because of his stature.

i don’t think nate is any way shape or form a superstar. i think briggs has the exact right bead on nate - an incredibly potent 6th man who can change the pace of a game, take over a game, impact a game form any number of angles. and i disagree with many's contention here that a 6th man is denigrated as a "role" player. an impactful 6th man is every bit as essential for winning as #'s 1-5.
Vmart
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3/22/2009  3:50 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by Marv:

i vote for resigning them both. at the very least, you get a chance to see how they perform next year before deciding whether to keep them longer term or package either with jeffries or curry to gain an expiring and possibly a draft choice.

Another next year and after that another and another, it goes on and on.

also v, 10 days ago you started a thread proclaiming nate a superstar:
Posted by Vmart:

When a player can get his shot off on anyone and anytime do it consistently within the frame work of the team, then that player is a superstar. Nate's recent play has been of superstar caliber. You can see that he is putting fear in the eyes of opponents specifically late in games. The fact that he gets quality shots off and ability to get to his spots and create room, and at the same time have the ability to pass the ball is all superstar stuff. I don't think the Knicks can allow Nate to go, he is to good. Nate fits this system like a glove.

I never thought Nate could be this good. I thought of him as clown, not serious player, to a circus act but he has changed my mind. He is the closest thing the Knicks have to a superstar if he isn't already.

now you want to give him away for nothing? what happened during the 10 days (besides the ususal dissapointing late-season letdown from the knicks)?

He is a superstar but he has limitations namely his height. If Nate was 6'6'' he would be in the company of LeBron, Wade and Kobe there is no doubt about it in my mind. I would like to keep him but reality of the situation is that the Knicks have to move on and he may command big money. I don't think the Knicks can get compensation for Nate or Lee for that matter. I don't think he would be deserving of big money I just don't see him as a big money player but he is very good superstar yes but elite superstar not there. The fact that he is small really hurts every shot has great degree of difficulty because of his stature.

i don’t think nate is any way shape or form a superstar. i think briggs has the exact right bead on nate - an incredibly potent 6th man who can change the pace of a game, take over a game, impact a game form any number of angles. and i disagree with many's contention here that a 6th man is denigrated as a "role" player. an impactful 6th man is every bit as essential for winning as #'s 1-5.

The Knicks are carrying sixth man when the starting 1-5 are devoid of a star. Your star is the 6th man you have to use Nate to get someone who can start in the lineup. Nate is a Dynamic player but the height factor causes to many mismatches and that hurts the team. He is the Knicks best offensive player but at the sametime his defense becomes a liability especially if he isn't causing havoc with steals.

That is a big problem when our superstar is the 6th man.
babyKnicks
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3/22/2009  3:54 PM
If we want to be entertained and scrap for the 8th seed next year. Keep them both.
But they are both mid level exceptions with upside.

I want Nash, amare, matrix, melo and/or lebron

Nate and lee are a product of the system and the market. But let them walk, match a midlevel and roll dice.

But do not come to the table with anything more than 5 years $30 mill each.
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
Marv
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3/22/2009  3:56 PM
Posted by Vmart:


The Knicks are carrying sixth man when the starting 1-5 are devoid of a star. Your star is the 6th man you have to use Nate to get someone who can start in the lineup. Nate is a Dynamic player but the height factor causes to many mismatches and that hurts the team. He is the Knicks best offensive player but at the sametime his defense becomes a liability especially if he isn't causing havoc with steals.

That is a big problem when our superstar is the 6th man.

i could be fine with that depending on who the starter is, but you have to first sign nate to accomplish that.
knicks1248
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3/22/2009  4:05 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Lee's rebounding "prowess" this season is largely buttressed by the fact that the Knicks don't have another even decent rebounder on the team. Plus the fact that he doesn't play defense because he's more interested in positioning himself for rebounds.

Lee averaged 9 rebs last year, which is a pretty good total. But that was with a really good rebounder in Zach Randolph playing next to him. For the first 11 games this season, with Randolph, Lee averaged under 7 boards a game. In the 10 games after Randolph was traded, Lee averaged 14.6 boards a game. Without another pretty good rebounder playing next to him and in a system that generates many more possessions, Lee's rebounding average is as inflated as it can get.

Same goes for Nate's scoring. Minutes + green light to shoot as much as he wants + nobody to compete for the ball on offense = inflated scoring.

I'd be much more impressed if these guys improved, not even excelled, at something that doesn't involve stat padding, defense.

ES
knicks1248
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3/22/2009  4:09 PM
i actually agree with u. It's becoming so obvious now with those two. I also hate the fact that those two are starting. Nate especially should be a career 6th man base on his energy.
ES
arkrud
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3/22/2009  4:23 PM
We need to talk with egghead professors how to stretch Nate to 6'6"" and Lee to 7'2".
And they can use some parts of Eddy’s body - his body is growing pretty well only in wrong direction (became wider rather than taller).
Then we will have 2 superstars before 2010 and do not need to wait another year. Who want to wait?
We are already waiting for 9 years... and if we will wait another year... we will just... puke...



[Edited by - arkrud on 03-22-2009 4:24 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
islesfan
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3/22/2009  4:45 PM
Do you want to build a Championship team or don't you?

If you do, how do you expect to win a Championship when 2 of your main players don't play any defense at all?

On a really good team, with balanced scoring and more than 1 rebounder, Nate and Lee can be expected to give you 12 pts and 9 rebs respectively. That can be easily replaced with players that play good defense as well.

Don't overrate these guys just because they've put up numbers on a poorly constructed team, playing a crazy system that inflates numbers.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nyk4ever
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3/22/2009  5:12 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Do you want to build a Championship team or don't you?

If you do, how do you expect to win a Championship when 2 of your main players don't play any defense at all?

On a really good team, with balanced scoring and more than 1 rebounder, Nate and Lee can be expected to give you 12 pts and 9 rebs respectively. That can be easily replaced with players that play good defense as well.

Don't overrate these guys just because they've put up numbers on a poorly constructed team, playing a crazy system that inflates numbers.

Theres alot of truth in that. I agree.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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