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Anyone else getting the feeling that David Lee is NOT a keeper?
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Cosmic
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3/21/2009  9:23 AM
I don't know if this is a knee-jerk reaction to the recent losses or not but I get the feeling that the last thing I want to do now is lock up David Lee long term to some outrageous 10M per year contract.

I'm starting to feel like Nate is the keeper of the two - and even only if he comes cheap.

Would anyone be all that upset to see a draft day deal go down?

Our pick + Lee + Curry or Jeffries -- for -- Some other teams first round selection + ________ ?

David Lee is proving he is NOT a franchise player and is NOT a starting PF or C on this team. So if he's not that on THIS team what would he be on a much better 2010-2011 roster? A backup F/C making 50M? Not the best of ideas there is it? Kind of pricey for some rebounding is it not?

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Cosmic
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3/21/2009  9:24 AM
And hell, what if it's our pick + Lee to move up in the draft on draft day?

Like #9+Lee for #4?

Even then I think it might be a good thing to consider...
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Allanfan20
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3/21/2009  9:36 AM
TWO possible good players for one? I don't think so. Give me Lee for a young player or use him to somehow get a top 3 pick, but not WITH #9. No thanks.

And Lee is still a great starting PF. You just need a big defensive stud next to him who can score a little. If Lee can score a little and that guy can score a little then you're good. Just make sure you have a big time backcourt player.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
BRIGGS
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3/21/2009  9:39 AM
The problem with David Lee is he doesnt play with another big and has to play 7 footers 1-1. He also looks like he is playing hurt right now. I like when Dave Cowens said he reminded him of himself. David is a really good basketball player--I cant imagine a team NOT wanting a David Lee. If we had a Pau Gasol playing C no one would mention David's name in a negative way. The best the Knicks in the last few years is when Curry was OK and playing with Lee. David Lee is not the problem--the way the team is constructed is the problem.

On the other hand--looking at it from a position where we might lose him for nothing--we should sit Lee and allow him to heal for a week while giving Chris Wilcox a chance to play 3-4 games 40 minutes. Why not? I think it makes sense to see what he has playing extended minutes. We can pay Chris Wilcox 3-4 MM a year without having to dip into the MLE--if he can pull up some 18-9 performances--perhaps they let Lee go and sign the cheaper player.
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djsunyc
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3/21/2009  9:39 AM
knicks can not trade lee or nate on draft day b/c they are not under contract.
Cosmic
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3/21/2009  9:42 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

knicks can not trade lee or nate on draft day b/c they are not under contract.

The draft is in June. They are under contract until July 1st. And even then it's the qualifying offer situation they are not URFA.

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Cosmic
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3/21/2009  9:45 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

TWO possible good players for one? I don't think so. Give me Lee for a young player or use him to somehow get a top 3 pick, but not WITH #9. No thanks.

And Lee is still a great starting PF. You just need a big defensive stud next to him who can score a little. If Lee can score a little and that guy can score a little then you're good. Just make sure you have a big time backcourt player.

Great? Lee is a good rebounder and not much else. I think we overrate him.

As to the idea of finding the right front court player to mask his deficiencies I have never felt that is the proper way to build a team. You need well rounded players. You can't have one dimensional players and then sign other one dimensional players and hope to couple them together. You need one well rounded player much more than you need two players who do opposite things on the court.

At the price tag Lee will command I just don't feel it is in our best interests to keep him. Besides he really is atrocious defensively and mediocre offensively. I'm just no longer impressed.
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djsunyc
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3/21/2009  9:47 AM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by djsunyc:

knicks can not trade lee or nate on draft day b/c they are not under contract.

The draft is in June. They are under contract until July 1st. And even then it's the qualifying offer situation they are not URFA.

they are restricted free agents. you can't trade a restricted free agent on draft day. who is going to trade for lee or nate w/o a S&T already in place? and even then, it can't be exectued until after july 1st. my point is that you will not hear "the knicks traded david lee or nate" on draft night. maybe on july 1st, but not on draft night.
Cosmic
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3/21/2009  9:57 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by djsunyc:

knicks can not trade lee or nate on draft day b/c they are not under contract.

The draft is in June. They are under contract until July 1st. And even then it's the qualifying offer situation they are not URFA.

they are restricted free agents. you can't trade a restricted free agent on draft day. who is going to trade for lee or nate w/o a S&T already in place? and even then, it can't be exectued until after july 1st. my point is that you will not hear "the knicks traded david lee or nate" on draft night. maybe on july 1st, but not on draft night.

Are you absolutely sure of that? Damn....

I know there is that damn Larry Coon FAQ out there but I hate trying to sift through it LOL too lazy.

Well, then what if we were to just consummate the same type of deal after the draft. If it were to be #9+Lee for the #4+(?) then how about we just end up doing the same trade after the fact - but this go around it's the rights of the selected players and not the picks themselves.


===========
And to add to a prior post: Lee and Duncan in his prime would have been a nice front court. Lee and say Bosh would be a disastrous front court. And no matter who you pair with Lee the fact of the matter is either his man will torch him - or - this fictional superstar Center we acquire will constantly get caught trying to clean up Lee's mess and end up in foul trouble or have his man torching HIM when he rotates over to cover for Lee's mess.

Just....a bad formula.

It was also spoken about through the Eddy Curry years: "Oh, all we need to do, is get a Charles Oakley type next to Curry to play defense and then it will work!"

WRONG...just WRONG. That is not how you build a team.

David Lee making 6M a year off the bench as a backup F/C would be a great keeper.
David Lee making 10M+ a year starting at F or C would be a bad investment that guarantees you only go so far in the playoffs until he gets destroyed by an opponents front court.

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Allanfan20
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3/21/2009  10:11 AM
Yeah good point. There's no way you can trade them on draft night either. They still may be under contract but teams aren't going to trade their picks for Lee or Nate for a couple of reasons. 1) They aren't allowed to contact Nate or Lee while they are still under contract. 2) They aren't going to risk trading a pick and then have Nate or Lee be unhappy and only accept the qualifying offer.

DJ is right, it's not happening. We're gonna have to wait and either sign them or sign and trade them for a younger player, which probably is not happening unless we take back an ending contract.

This isn't an easy situation for the Knicks AT ALL.

And Lee is not a great rebounding and that's it. He can score a little and plays very good in the flow of the offense. He's injured now remember. It's his defense that kills us and that's why I said we need a great defensive presence next to him, if he's going to be our starter. Not a player like Zach Randolph or Eddie Curry.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
arkrud
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3/21/2009  10:49 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Yeah good point. There's no way you can trade them on draft night either. They still may be under contract but teams aren't going to trade their picks for Lee or Nate for a couple of reasons. 1) They aren't allowed to contact Nate or Lee while they are still under contract. 2) They aren't going to risk trading a pick and then have Nate or Lee be unhappy and only accept the qualifying offer.

DJ is right, it's not happening. We're gonna have to wait and either sign them or sign and trade them for a younger player, which probably is not happening unless we take back an ending contract.

This isn't an easy situation for the Knicks AT ALL.

And Lee is not a great rebounding and that's it. He can score a little and plays very good in the flow of the offense. He's injured now remember. It's his defense that kills us and that's why I said we need a great defensive presence next to him, if he's going to be our starter. Not a player like Zach Randolph or Eddie Curry.

I think they will sign both Lee and Nate and use that when teams will try to trade 2010 big FAs to not lose them for nothing. We will have the best package in the NBA with multiple options of expirings and Lee and Nate included. This where the game will begin....
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
islesfan
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3/21/2009  11:10 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Yeah good point. There's no way you can trade them on draft night either. They still may be under contract but teams aren't going to trade their picks for Lee or Nate for a couple of reasons. 1) They aren't allowed to contact Nate or Lee while they are still under contract. 2) They aren't going to risk trading a pick and then have Nate or Lee be unhappy and only accept the qualifying offer.

DJ is right, it's not happening. We're gonna have to wait and either sign them or sign and trade them for a younger player, which probably is not happening unless we take back an ending contract.

This isn't an easy situation for the Knicks AT ALL.

And Lee is not a great rebounding and that's it. He can score a little and plays very good in the flow of the offense. He's injured now remember. It's his defense that kills us and that's why I said we need a great defensive presence next to him, if he's going to be our starter. Not a player like Zach Randolph or Eddie Curry.

This is why it was so stupid to not trade at least 1 of them before the trade deadline. Nobody is going to sign and trade us someone young, good and cheap for these guys and certainly not without taking back some bad contract(s) which interferes with 2010.

On a side note, did anybody catch this play last night where a Kings guard dribbled between Lee and Nate and they just ran into each other and almost fell down? The Two Stooges are certainly cornerstones of this franchise and must be re-signed at all costs.
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GKFv2
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3/21/2009  11:32 AM
I've had that feeling for a long time. Join the club Cosmic.
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franco12
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3/21/2009  12:11 PM
We need to define keeper.

David Lee & Nate are not core type players. They are exceeding good role players, and I believe they are winners in that they give effort every night.

However, Lee is out of position, and hurt the last two years. Can he play a complete season, even with a proper big next to him?
nyk4ever
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3/21/2009  12:25 PM
This why I've said all along that we let the market decide what Lee's contract is going to be. If it is reasonable fine, match it and be done with it. If someone offers him 9mill a year then let him go, try and work out a sign and trade for some a younger player/draft picks.

The same goes for nate. They are nice players but they don't do anything to change the outlook of a franchise so there's no reason to pay them before we pay a superstar.
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JohnWallace44
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3/21/2009  1:39 PM
This was the Lewis RFA trade:
The Magic sent Seattle a conditional second-round pick, while the SuperSonics earned a trade exception believed to be in the $9 million range.

Nothing great.

They then sent that exception to the Suns for KT.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
nyk4ever
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3/21/2009  1:41 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

This was the Lewis RFA trade:
The Magic sent Seattle a conditional second-round pick, while the SuperSonics earned a trade exception believed to be in the $9 million range.

Nothing great.

They then sent that exception to the Suns for KT.

The trade exception is a nice asset.
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newyorknewyork
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3/21/2009  2:22 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

This was the Lewis RFA trade:
The Magic sent Seattle a conditional second-round pick, while the SuperSonics earned a trade exception believed to be in the $9 million range.

Nothing great.

They then sent that exception to the Suns for KT.

The trade exception is a nice asset.

A first rd pick, 10mil trade exception, plus the cap space free'd up by trading him. Hmmmmm thats pretty enticing.
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Queeniepop
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3/21/2009  3:38 PM
FROM ISOLA'S BLOG (FACT...not conjecture)
Do you realize that the since Robinson and David Lee have been on the team the Knicks are exactly 100 games under .500? Over the past three-plus seasons the Knicks record is 107-207. Those are numbers Donnie Walsh should be thinking about when he's deciding what type of money to invest in Robinson and Lee, two restricted free agents this summer.

This is what is going to be said about Nate and Lee, the "stars" of this squad. Both are four years in the league...25 going on 26 (wrong side of 25). No different than what's been said about players on this team before. They really aren't kids anymore. Next year will be their 5th year...and the start of 2010, they're sixth year. Multi-year contract extensions with tens-of-millions price tags carry a heavy burden. Bad shots, bad decisions, bad D...the onus is on them. Neither lead but need to be led.

Walsh has some tough decisions ahead. My cure is to sign and trade...Lee for a top 5 lotto protected in 2010 and a young player with upside...Nate for a top 10 lotto protected in 2010 for a vet guard.

Duhon, Hughes, Harrington...all expiring deals...pack 'em and ship 'em.
TMS
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3/21/2009  4:16 PM
good thing we didn't trade those guys at the deadline. *whew*
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Anyone else getting the feeling that David Lee is NOT a keeper?
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