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Al Harrington & Larry Hughes
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technomaster
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3/16/2009  12:43 AM
It looks like these two are fairly serviceable players. Al Harrington has been our most consistent scorer since joining the team. While I'm not really sold on him leading us to the promised land, what is his future with the team in 2010? Are we projecting significantly more production out of Gallo & Chandler that we'd be able to let Harrington, Hughes, and the whole bunch of expiring contracts?

Can someone explain how the salary cap works, especially with regard to Larry Bird rights? Are the Larry Bird rights negated if a team is under the salary cap? I'm assuming we can't first sign *insert big free agent name here* first, hit the salary cap, then re-sign our own RFAs?
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martin
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3/16/2009  12:48 AM
Posted by technomaster:

It looks like these two are fairly serviceable players. Al Harrington has been our most consistent scorer since joining the team. While I'm not really sold on him leading us to the promised land, what is his future with the team in 2010? Are we projecting significantly more production out of Gallo & Chandler that we'd be able to let Harrington, Hughes, and the whole bunch of expiring contracts?

Can someone explain how the salary cap works, especially with regard to Larry Bird rights? Are the Larry Bird rights negated if a team is under the salary cap? I'm assuming we can't first sign *insert big free agent name here* first, hit the salary cap, then re-sign our own RFAs?

dude. http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm
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TMS
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3/16/2009  12:59 AM
Harrington & Hughes are real nice expirings to have to use in trades next season if Donnie decides to try & package those guys w/other assets to go after some player that might become available that he's got his eye on... both are productive veteran players that can help any team.

in terms of Bird Rights, basically it gives teams the ability to retain their own players w/contract extensions that go over the cap... Bird Rights are acquired once a player has played w/any 1 team for 3 years consecutively w/o being waived & are transferred to a new team if those players are traded thenceforth... Bird Exception contracts can run a maximum of 6 years
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Pharzeone
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3/16/2009  1:42 AM
Posted by TMS:

Harrington & Hughes are real nice expirings to have to use in trades next season if Donnie decides to try & package those guys w/other assets to go after some player that might become available that he's got his eye on... both are productive veteran players that can help any team.

in terms of Bird Rights, basically it gives teams the ability to retain their own players w/contract extensions that go over the cap... Bird Rights are acquired once a player has played w/any 1 team for 3 years consecutively w/o being waived & are transferred to a new team if those players are traded thenceforth... Bird Exception contracts can run a maximum of 6 years

Hey quick question, TMS. Can you trade someone's Bird Right's with them who isn't on a rookie contract? For example, When Cleveland and Miami agreed to give them short contracts instead of picking up their options. If they were traded to another team would that team acquire their Bird Rights. I asked this because Bosh is in that boat too.
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TMS
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3/16/2009  1:48 AM
yep, Bird Rights are transferrable when a player who has them is traded.

even say if a player has signed 3 consecutive 1 year deals w/the same team in 3 consecutive seasons, that team will gain his Bird Rights as long as they haven't waived him during that time.

[Edited by - TMS on 03-15-2009 10:51 PM]
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Pharzeone
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3/16/2009  1:56 AM
Posted by TMS:

yep, Bird Rights are transferrable when a player who has them is traded.

even say if a player has signed 3 consecutive 1 year deals w/the same team in 3 consecutive seasons, that team will gain his Bird Rights as long as they haven't waived him during that time.

[Edited by - TMS on 03-15-2009 10:51 PM]

So essentially if the Knicks for example traded for Bosh this summer, they could give him an extension even though they are over the salary cap before the start of the season. That part always confused me. I always thought that player still had to be on their rookie contract. Thanks.
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TMS
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3/16/2009  2:27 AM
as long as that player has not been waived or changed teams via free agency, then that player's Bird Rights remain intact after that 3 year waiting period... they enacted that 3 year thing so teams can't get cute & sign up their own players to 1 year cheap deals & then sign them up to bigger contracts the year after they acquire the other players they wanna get... like for instance, it prevents the Knicks from signing Lee & Nate to cheap 1 year deals this offseason & then saving the cap space to sign up free agents in 2010, after which they sign up Lee & Nate to longer term extensions using the Bird Exception loophole.

if however, say Nate & Lee were turning RFA next year instead of this year, & we had the same cap situation, then we could feasibly wait to sign Lee & Nate after we signed up 2 max FA's & then extend those guys on Bird Exception contracts, but their free agent amount would still count against the orginal cap figure, which means their combined qualifying offer figures would be included in our total cap total before any of the other free agents could be signed.

so to break that down, next year Lee & Nate are slated to earn $5.4 mil combined w/their qualifying offer figures... so if we had the cap space next year that we're slated to have in 2010 & there were 2 max FA's that we wanted to sign up, we could wait to sign our own guys after we had used up our available cap signing up other players because we own their Bird Rights.

the same would apply if say Lee & Nate were non-rookie contracted veteran players that had been on this team for 3 consecutive seasons w/o being waived too... for example, Donnie Walsh would have gained Chris Duhon's Bird Rights after the 2010 season if he had signed him up to a 3 year contract this past offseason instead of 2 years, but he chose to forego that in favor of maintaining the cap figure flexibility in 2010.

i hope that made some sense the way i explained it... it's all really convoluted & confusing, i know.

all the info i got is taken from the site martin cited above:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm
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TMS
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3/16/2009  2:33 AM
to answer ur question, if we traded for Bosh or say Amare this summer then as far as i know we gain their Bird Rights & can go over the cap to resign them to contract extensions in 2010.

BUT! the caveat to that scenario once again is that their free agent amount will still count against our total cap figure, so since both of them are already on max contracts anyway it doesn't help us in signing up other bigname FA's in 2010 at all & we'll still need to dump Curry & Fishlips' contracts along w/Lee & Nate in order to have the cap space to sign another max guy... so really the only advantage in trading for Bosh or Amare now is that they get a feel of how playing in NY is & decide they want to stay here when their player options kick in in 2010, & hopefully act as a drawing card for other FA's to want to come here so that Donnie can make the trades necessary to free up the cap space to get it done.

[Edited by - TMS on 03-15-2009 11:53 PM]
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sebstar
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3/16/2009  2:35 AM
we can grab a star with our expirings, young players, and a Lee/or Nate combo.

Donnie is sitting on a gang of assets. *paging Denver*
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TMS
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3/16/2009  2:40 AM
on the bright side, the Knicks do currently own Eddy Curry, Q Rich & Fishlips' Bird Rights as well.
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orangeblobman
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3/16/2009  9:24 AM
Carmelo Anthony went to university in Syracuse, which is in New York. They wore orange jerseys there. The Nuggets suck for life. Maybe Carmelo Anthony can be ours next season. He can win another championship in an orange shirt.

I would rather keep Hughes than Harrington. Hughes seems to be our best defender, and if we can hang on to him for a small amount of $$$, then yes yes, he can win championship here. Al Harrington, I don't really know what to think about him. On one hand he's a chucker, on the other he has come through a bunch of times for us this season. I think he will need more money than we would be willing to give to keep him, so you guys are right, he will probably be shipped soon.

[Edited by - orangeblobman on 03-16-2009 09:32 AM]
WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
technomaster
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3/16/2009  8:51 PM
Hmm. Well, sorry Martin, I guess I'm not highly engaged enough to educate myself from all of the details of that site. :)

Thanks TMS for quickly summarizing.

The only fundamental issue with keeping Hughes is that he's a SG that's a mediocre shooter. He doesn't stretch the defenses like the prototypical wing would.

Al Harrington is closer to being a prototypical SF, at least based on his offensive skill set. His shot selection could use some work (for a player his size, he really hasn't come as close to shooting 50% as he probably should...) and his passing is a little weak, but his production is more or less in line with what you want for a SF. BUT... maybe you want a little bit more of a well-rounded player in this position.

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nyk4ever
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3/16/2009  10:12 PM
Posted by sebstar:

we can grab a star with our expirings, young players, and a Lee/or Nate combo.

Donnie is sitting on a gang of assets. *paging Denver*

Agree Seb. As I've said before - I've soured on Carmelo (attitude) but the dude is 24 and is a top player in this league. It's POSSIBLE he just needs a fresh start and if thats the case it's an absolute steal.
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Bonn1997
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3/17/2009  7:01 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by sebstar:

we can grab a star with our expirings, young players, and a Lee/or Nate combo.

Donnie is sitting on a gang of assets. *paging Denver*

Agree Seb. As I've said before - I've soured on Carmelo (attitude) but the dude is 24 and is a top player in this league. It's POSSIBLE he just needs a fresh start and if thats the case it's an absolute steal.
But THEN what? Do we still have room for a max contract in 2010 or are we putting together a team with Carmelo and no supporting cast and no cap space?

Marv
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3/17/2009  8:35 AM
no to carmelo. guy's a mad chucker in this league, no d, will want a lot of dough.. keep al at a reasonable price and get the same game.
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Al Harrington & Larry Hughes
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