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Wha...what happened to the ta..ta...Tank?
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JohnWallace44
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3/10/2009  11:09 PM
Last game versus the Nets... I really don't think I've seen a more obvious intentional loss than what the Knicks did down the stretch.

We were three games out and behind a five teams for the 8th spot and I was mad, but I was thinking, ok, I get it, we're going for Lottery positioning... it's time.

Nate and Al sat for all of the critical minutes, the team looked rudderless and we didn't put up a fight in the final minutes of the game.

Now... against the Bucks, we look like were playing for a critical win... I was actually rooting against my own team in the final minutes. I'm lost. I don't know what we're doing anymore.

In the Tank Standings, here's where we're at;

Minnesota - 6th - 18 wins
Golden State - 7th - 21 wins
Toronto - 8th - 23 wins
Knicks - 9th - 26 wins
Indiana - 10th - 28 wins
Charlotte - 11th - 28 wins
New Jersey - 12th - 28 wins
Milwaukee - 13th - 30 wins
Chicago - 14th - 29 wins - 8th spot in East
Philly - 15th - 20 wins - 7th spot in East

I'm not worried about catching Chicago anymore. I'm worried about catching Golden State.

What happened tonight makes me really confused about what happened against NJ.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
AUTOADVERT
arkrud
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3/10/2009  11:15 PM
This team will win what it can win.

If you think Knicks are tanking you are wrong.
It is not what MikeD is and it is not waht we need.
We need the culture of winning every game more that some 1-2 position shift in the lottary.
There is only garbage in this lottary anyway outside first 5 and we are not getiing there anyway.

If you think we can make the playoffs you wrong too because we cannot.
We are not so good yet and we have no time to became good this season.

So 33 we go:

33
25
33
25
33

The magic numbers...


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
franco12
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3/10/2009  11:17 PM
I'm with you, though less convinced the loss in NJ was intentional.

There is no way we can catch Don Nelson. Toronto is who we need to overcome.
TMS
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3/10/2009  11:19 PM
i agree w/arkrud... it's absolutely imperative that we miss out on the OJ Mayo's & D Wade's of the world.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
arkrud
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3/10/2009  11:25 PM
Posted by TMS:

i agree w/arkrud... it's absolutely imperative that we miss out on the OJ Mayo's & D Wade's of the world.

Do you really see anything even remotely close to this in this year bunch?
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
JohnWallace44
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3/10/2009  11:42 PM
Wade and Bosh were not supposed to be difference makers when they came out either.

Haven't we beaten this thought process in the other threads? Yes, it may be a weak draft as far as the 2,3,4 spots and it's average at the 5 spot, but it is overflowing at the 1 and lo and behold... the Knicks desperately need a serious player at the point.

We've been outplayed every game, every year at the point except for a handful of games when Marty Collins was struck by lightning and a handful of games when we had just gotten Marbs.

Who was the last point that gave us an advantage going into a game?

Derek Harper? Do you have to even go back further than that?

There are at least four PG's that would completely change our team for the better.

If you like Teague and Holiday, there's six.

If we just miss on getting one of the top 4 PG's or Thabeet because we wanted to win some pitty games down the stretch... god this team is frustrating.


If we're not tanking, then what the hell was that in the last half of the 4th in the Nets game? We were outplaying them, and then we put in a dummy line-up in crunch time.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
PresIke
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3/11/2009  12:01 AM
we're not tanking. this is pretty much restricted to internet fan's fantasies.

on top of that, this year's draft ain't all that.

we're trying to build a winning culture.

we're what. 2 1/2 games out of the 8th spot and we should tank after not being a playoff team since 2004?

our team has struggled to win hence why we lost the nets game. there just seems like little chance that this team is trying to tank. shoot we didn't even tank when we were worse than we are now.

akrud is so right. there are no can't miss prospects this year for the most part. sorry, this is NOT the year to tank when you are trying to be attractive to free-agents in a year.

orlando was able to sign mcgrady and hill (in their prime) after their team put up a solid season just before.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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3/11/2009  12:03 AM
pass me some of what you're smokin' bro...must be good! ;)
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
TMS
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3/11/2009  12:22 AM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by TMS:

i agree w/arkrud... it's absolutely imperative that we miss out on the OJ Mayo's & D Wade's of the world.

Do you really see anything even remotely close to this in this year bunch?

i have no idea & neither do u or any of the other draft experts on this forum... one thing i do know is that i hear the same stuff about the bad effects that tanking will have on our franchise every single season that you're dishing out right now when it becomes painfully obvious that our team as presently constructed ain't gonna do anything that year, & yet people still cling to the belief that winning 30 games instead of 20 is gonna make a damn bit of positive difference in this team's mindset for the longterm future.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
JohnWallace44
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3/11/2009  12:25 AM
Posted by PresIke:

we're not tanking. this is pretty much restricted to internet fan's fantasies.

on top of that, this year's draft ain't all that.

we're trying to build a winning culture.

we're what. 2 1/2 games out of the 8th spot and we should tank after not being a playoff team since 2004?

our team has struggled to win hence why we lost the nets game. there just seems like little chance that this team is trying to tank. shoot we didn't even tank when we were worse than we are now.

akrud is so right. there are no can't miss prospects this year for the most part. sorry, this is NOT the year to tank when you are trying to be attractive to free-agents in a year.

orlando was able to sign mcgrady and hill (in their prime) after their team put up a solid season just before.

I have to disagree.

We're more than a year out from signing anyone. The Max guys are being told to resign now because of the economy so that's a pipe dream anyway.

How did what Orlando did two seasons before they signed Hill and McGrady effect their attractiveness as a landing spot?

I would argue that there are five players out there that would quickly change our fortunes - Thabeet, Rubio, Jennings, Maynor, Warren and Evans. Griffin will go #1, Hill will be in there somewhere...

You're getting into delicate territory when we're sitting at #9.


Also, what in the eff happened at the end of the Jersey game? We definitely could have won that.

This team really makes no sense at all.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
PresIke
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3/11/2009  12:54 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by PresIke:

we're not tanking. this is pretty much restricted to internet fan's fantasies.

on top of that, this year's draft ain't all that.

we're trying to build a winning culture.

we're what. 2 1/2 games out of the 8th spot and we should tank after not being a playoff team since 2004?

our team has struggled to win hence why we lost the nets game. there just seems like little chance that this team is trying to tank. shoot we didn't even tank when we were worse than we are now.

akrud is so right. there are no can't miss prospects this year for the most part. sorry, this is NOT the year to tank when you are trying to be attractive to free-agents in a year.

orlando was able to sign mcgrady and hill (in their prime) after their team put up a solid season just before.

I have to disagree.

We're more than a year out from signing anyone. The Max guys are being told to resign now because of the economy so that's a pipe dream anyway.

How did what Orlando did two seasons before they signed Hill and McGrady effect their attractiveness as a landing spot?

I would argue that there are five players out there that would quickly change our fortunes - Thabeet, Rubio, Jennings, Maynor, Warren and Evans. Griffin will go #1, Hill will be in there somewhere...

You're getting into delicate territory when we're sitting at #9.


Also, what in the eff happened at the end of the Jersey game? We definitely could have won that.

This team really makes no sense at all.

that's cool, i can respect your view. i just don't think this team is tanking. do you think d'antoni is lying? why are we tanking since they stated we were trying to win and rebuild.

the jersey game is to me like many games we have gone through. we are just not a good team, and have worse players at the top than someone like the nets. harris and vince are generally considered better than any player we have, no?

orlando, in that instance, freed space, plus created a decent competitive team that was surprisingly good. i believe it made them attractive to mccgaady and hill, who we never know what could have been because of some unfortunate circumstances. now, in fairness, the celtics got top players, but they didn't sign with them. do you remember when we sucked and the idea was to sign chris webber and brian grant, or whatever? we were USED for the most part, to get them more money. part of that may have been because we were just bad with little future. JVG was smart enough to get out, even if I don't like him as a coach.

i would LOVE to get Rubio, but he isn't even entering the draft, from what I hear. We can still get Jennings, and I don't even think our chances of getting in the playoffs are great, but we HAVE to try. that's the difference. in the past i would support tanking, but this year, i think is transition. people or anything in transition is going to go through struggles. breaking the mentality that you are not "struggling" is the challenge.

if you listen to mike d that's what he seems to say CONSTANTLY. he says the team needs to learn how to win. the suns, i think had more guys ready to win. that's why duhon was so supported, but duhon is not nash. we are mediocre, with some talent, but we need to get away from the idea of tanking because it is self-defeatist as a player and coach. for a fan in dire need of a "star" of course it makes sense, and in years with a BIG star, you do it, but this time around...NO.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
JohnWallace44
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3/11/2009  1:27 AM
I hear you Pres, but how do you sit your two best players for so many fourth quarter minutes like that in an absolutely critical game?

That was essentially a playoff game and Nate and Al were riding pine when it mattered the most. Q played a lot of those minutes.

I get that we're not any good. I just can't believe MikeD somehow believed we'd be better with those two sitting.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TheGame
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3/11/2009  4:41 AM
MDA's idea of tanking is playing CHandler and DG more minutes. That is about as close to tanking as we are going to get. FOrtunately, our team defense is bad enough that I doubt we play .500 ball the rest of the season, but we are not catching GS. We will probably end up with the 8th or 9th pick in the draft unless we win the lottery.
Trust the Process
franco12
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3/11/2009  7:45 AM
The critical year that this team must be better and get into the play offs is the 2009/10 season. That is when

1. we don't own our own draft pick
2. when potential free agents, if they haven't signed extensions, will be looking to see if we are competitive or not

There might not be any can't miss players in this draft, but our chances of landing a high impact player only improve with a higher position.

Ergo, I think its pretty evident that management realize wins at this point don't help our cause, and the best way to improve this team for the future is not some mythical play off experience 4 game sweep against cleveland/boston, but in adding the best talent possible in this draft.

Unless Walsh has someone on the inside ready to put white out in the ping pong balls, then losses are the way to improve the roster at this time.
SupremeCommander
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3/11/2009  9:05 AM
Don't think "the team" intentionally lost... I think the players intentionally chose to not give a ****
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
Paladin55
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3/11/2009  9:19 AM
I have to admit that I am amazed when I read that people think we are "tanking."

Is it possible that some folks are unaware that a guy like MDA hates to lose, and is not going to do anything to intentionally lose a game??!!

There may come a a time when we've reached a point where we have no chance at all for a playoff spot, and thinking about the future, MDA, (with a "go ahead" from Walsh) decides to guarantee Chandler and Gallinari 35 MPG at the expense of players who might give us a better chance to win NOW. He might let a guy like Samb play some significant minutes to see if he might be worthy of a contract that extends through the summer. These will be lineup changes made with the approval of Walsh in consultation with MDA, and they will be made well ahead of game time.

But he is not going to make in game decisions with the intent of losing a game. Not now, not never.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
JohnWallace44
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3/11/2009  9:54 AM
I hear what everyone is saying, but that just makes me furious and completely baffled about the sequence of events at the end of the Nets game.

Why where Nate and Al on the bench?

We're not talking just a couple of minutes. I don't know if Al played at all in the 5th and Nate must have come out half way through when we were within a bucket of the Nets.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
islesfan
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3/11/2009  12:36 PM
Posted by Paladin55:

I have to admit that I am amazed when I read that people think we are "tanking."

Is it possible that some folks are unaware that a guy like MDA hates to lose, and is not going to do anything to intentionally lose a game??!!

There may come a a time when we've reached a point where we have no chance at all for a playoff spot, and thinking about the future, MDA, (with a "go ahead" from Walsh) decides to guarantee Chandler and Gallinari 35 MPG at the expense of players who might give us a better chance to win NOW. He might let a guy like Samb play some significant minutes to see if he might be worthy of a contract that extends through the summer. These will be lineup changes made with the approval of Walsh in consultation with MDA, and they will be made well ahead of game time.

But he is not going to make in game decisions with the intent of losing a game. Not now, not never.

And I have to admit that I am amazed when I read that people think that "tanking" means throwing games.

Who said anything about D'Antoni making in game decisions with the intent of losing games??!! He can, and I'm sure he will, try to win games, but he can do it with Chandler and Gallinari getting more minutes and in crunch time. Also with Nichols and Samb getting as many minutes as they can handle to see what they have in them. Why does he have to do it with Hughes and Harrington trying to score as much as they can?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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3/11/2009  12:57 PM
Posted by franco12:

The critical year that this team must be better and get into the play offs is the 2009/10 season. That is when

1. we don't own our own draft pick
2. when potential free agents, if they haven't signed extensions, will be looking to see if we are competitive or not

There might not be any can't miss players in this draft, but our chances of landing a high impact player only improve with a higher position.

Ergo, I think its pretty evident that management realize wins at this point don't help our cause, and the best way to improve this team for the future is not some mythical play off experience 4 game sweep against cleveland/boston, but in adding the best talent possible in this draft.

Unless Walsh has someone on the inside ready to put white out in the ping pong balls, then losses are the way to improve the roster at this time.

That's just a brilliant post. Amazingly enough it's exactly what I've been saying for months.

Management might have a plan for the makeup of the roster in 2010 but it doesn't jibe with the head coaches plan, for lack of a better word. D'Antoni is all over the place just in the last few weeks. First he talks about how the time to develop young players is in summer league, training camp and preseason. Then all of a sudden he needs to get a couple of the young players as much playing time as he can.

D'Antoni's actions have been even more confusing. He plays Gallinari limited minutes, then out of nowhere he starts him for a couple of games before he heads back to the bench, then 3 games later he DNP-CD's Gallinari after making his comments about when to develop young players. He gives Gallinari sporadic playing time for a few games and now he wants to get Gallinari as many minutes as he can. It's mindboggling. And I haven't even brought up his rotations the last few games, which JohnWallace has been justifiably questioning.

Donnie Walsh better start reigning D'Antoni in and get him to work with him on his plan for 2010.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Paladin55
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3/11/2009  1:22 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Paladin55:

I have to admit that I am amazed when I read that people think we are "tanking."

Is it possible that some folks are unaware that a guy like MDA hates to lose, and is not going to do anything to intentionally lose a game??!!

There may come a a time when we've reached a point where we have no chance at all for a playoff spot, and thinking about the future, MDA, (with a "go ahead" from Walsh) decides to guarantee Chandler and Gallinari 35 MPG at the expense of players who might give us a better chance to win NOW. He might let a guy like Samb play some significant minutes to see if he might be worthy of a contract that extends through the summer. These will be lineup changes made with the approval of Walsh in consultation with MDA, and they will be made well ahead of game time.

But he is not going to make in game decisions with the intent of losing a game. Not now, not never.

And I have to admit that I am amazed when I read that people think that "tanking" means throwing games.

Who said anything about D'Antoni making in game decisions with the intent of losing games??!! He can, and I'm sure he will, try to win games, but he can do it with Chandler and Gallinari getting more minutes and in crunch time. Also with Nichols and Samb getting as many minutes as they can handle to see what they have in them. Why does he have to do it with Hughes and Harrington trying to score as much as they can?

If you want to use the word "tanking," try to know what it means.

Main Entry: tank
Function: verb
Date: 1863

transitive verb
1 : to place, store, or treat in a tank
2 : to make no effort to win : lose intentionally <tanked the match>
intransitive verb
1 : to lose intentionally : give up in competition



No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
Wha...what happened to the ta..ta...Tank?

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