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measuring coaching impact
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djsunyc
Posts: 44929
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3/10/2009  3:56 PM
this was posted by supersub on a raptors forum:

How can we measure coaching efficiency? We can obviously watch execution on both ends of the floor with our own eyes, we can wonder how the heck a certain team is winning all those games, etc., but I haven't seen a measurable way that allows us to say: "This coach is getting the most out of the talent on his team" or "This coach is useless". I figured that I'd give it a try.

First, I measured the collective talent level on each team by calculating the collective PER of the roster. This way, we can see who has the most talent on the team:

team                   per
L.A. Lakers 17.09
Cleveland Cavaliers 16.47
Portland TrailBlazers 16.42
Phoenix Suns 16.06
Utah Jazz 15.97
Dallas Mavericks 15.87
Boston Celtics 15.77
Orlando Magic 15.53
New Orleans Hornets 15.51
Atlanta Hawks 15.45
Denver Nuggets 15.34
Golden State Warriors 15.34
San Antonio Spurs 15.31
Miami Heat 15.29
Houston Rockets 15.04
Chicago Bulls 14.88
Philadelphia 76ers 14.86
New Jersey Nets 14.79
Detroit Pistons 14.76
Toronto Raptors 14.66
Indiana Pacers 14.63
New York Knicks 14.53
Milwaukee Bucks 14.38
Washington Wizards 14.08
Minnesota Wolves 13.97
Charlotte Bobcats 13.74
Oklahoma City Thunder 13.73
Memphis Grizzlies 13.56
Los Angeles Clippers 13.48
Sacramento Kings 13.39


As you can see, overall, the best teams are at the top and the dregs are at the bottom. The Raps have the 20th best roster overall, and the 10th best in the East. Obviously, the stronger the talent, the more wins you're going to get. The Lakers, with a collective PER over 17, have more talent at the top that compensate for the lower talent on the bench. When most of your top players are bench-level talent, you end up with a team like Sacramento.

Next step was to measure how many wins each coach has been able to squeeze out of each PER.

team                   per   wins  w/PER
Boston Celtics 15.77 49 3.107
Cleveland Cavaliers 16.47 49 2.975
Orlando Magic 15.53 46 2.962
L.A. Lakers 17.09 50 2.926
Houston Rockets 15.04 42 2.793
San Antonio Spurs 15.31 42 2.743
Denver Nuggets 15.34 40 2.608
New Orleans Hornets 15.51 39 2.515
Utah Jazz 15.97 40 2.505
Portland TrailBlazers 16.42 40 2.436
Dallas Mavericks 15.87 38 2.394
Atlanta Hawks 15.45 36 2.330
Miami Heat 15.29 34 2.224
Detroit Pistons 14.76 32 2.168
Phoenix Suns 16.06 34 2.117
Milwaukee Bucks 14.38 30 2.086
Charlotte Bobcats 13.74 28 2.038
Philadelphia 76ers 14.86 30 2.019
Chicago Bulls 14.88 29 1.949
Indiana Pacers 14.63 28 1.914
New Jersey Nets 14.79 28 1.893
New York Knicks 14.53 25 1.721
Toronto Raptors 14.66 23 1.569
Golden State Warriors 15.34 21 1.369
Minnesota Wolves 13.97 18 1.288
Oklahoma City Thunder 13.73 17 1.238
Memphis Grizzlies 13.56 16 1.180
Los Angeles Clippers 13.48 15 1.113
Washington Wizards 14.08 15 1.065
Sacramento Kings 13.39 14 1.046


The Celtics, with 7th best roster in the NBA, make the most out of their players. And the results on the floor reflect that. With a lot of injured players, they still find ways to win, and win often. You can point at the Garnett factor, but he's been out for a while now, and the Celtics have not stopped winning. The Charlotte Bobcats have the 5th worst roster, yet Larry Brown has them executing like the 17th best team. The Raptors' coaches have the Raptors right where they should be (20th roster and 23rd in results). In my mind, the worst are Phoenix (4th roster and 15th in results) and Golden State (11th roster, 24th in results).

This is my first try at this, so please provide me with your comments and suggestions on how I can improve it.

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Bippity10
Posts: 13999
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Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
3/10/2009  3:58 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

this was posted by supersub on a raptors forum:

How can we measure coaching efficiency? We can obviously watch execution on both ends of the floor with our own eyes, we can wonder how the heck a certain team is winning all those games, etc., but I haven't seen a measurable way that allows us to say: "This coach is getting the most out of the talent on his team" or "This coach is useless". I figured that I'd give it a try.

First, I measured the collective talent level on each team by calculating the collective PER of the roster. This way, we can see who has the most talent on the team:

team                   per
L.A. Lakers 17.09
Cleveland Cavaliers 16.47
Portland TrailBlazers 16.42
Phoenix Suns 16.06
Utah Jazz 15.97
Dallas Mavericks 15.87
Boston Celtics 15.77
Orlando Magic 15.53
New Orleans Hornets 15.51
Atlanta Hawks 15.45
Denver Nuggets 15.34
Golden State Warriors 15.34
San Antonio Spurs 15.31
Miami Heat 15.29
Houston Rockets 15.04
Chicago Bulls 14.88
Philadelphia 76ers 14.86
New Jersey Nets 14.79
Detroit Pistons 14.76
Toronto Raptors 14.66
Indiana Pacers 14.63
New York Knicks 14.53
Milwaukee Bucks 14.38
Washington Wizards 14.08
Minnesota Wolves 13.97
Charlotte Bobcats 13.74
Oklahoma City Thunder 13.73
Memphis Grizzlies 13.56
Los Angeles Clippers 13.48
Sacramento Kings 13.39


As you can see, overall, the best teams are at the top and the dregs are at the bottom. The Raps have the 20th best roster overall, and the 10th best in the East. Obviously, the stronger the talent, the more wins you're going to get. The Lakers, with a collective PER over 17, have more talent at the top that compensate for the lower talent on the bench. When most of your top players are bench-level talent, you end up with a team like Sacramento.

Next step was to measure how many wins each coach has been able to squeeze out of each PER.

team                   per   wins  w/PER
Boston Celtics 15.77 49 3.107
Cleveland Cavaliers 16.47 49 2.975
Orlando Magic 15.53 46 2.962
L.A. Lakers 17.09 50 2.926
Houston Rockets 15.04 42 2.793
San Antonio Spurs 15.31 42 2.743
Denver Nuggets 15.34 40 2.608
New Orleans Hornets 15.51 39 2.515
Utah Jazz 15.97 40 2.505
Portland TrailBlazers 16.42 40 2.436
Dallas Mavericks 15.87 38 2.394
Atlanta Hawks 15.45 36 2.330
Miami Heat 15.29 34 2.224
Detroit Pistons 14.76 32 2.168
Phoenix Suns 16.06 34 2.117
Milwaukee Bucks 14.38 30 2.086
Charlotte Bobcats 13.74 28 2.038
Philadelphia 76ers 14.86 30 2.019
Chicago Bulls 14.88 29 1.949
Indiana Pacers 14.63 28 1.914
New Jersey Nets 14.79 28 1.893
New York Knicks 14.53 25 1.721
Toronto Raptors 14.66 23 1.569
Golden State Warriors 15.34 21 1.369
Minnesota Wolves 13.97 18 1.288
Oklahoma City Thunder 13.73 17 1.238
Memphis Grizzlies 13.56 16 1.180
Los Angeles Clippers 13.48 15 1.113
Washington Wizards 14.08 15 1.065
Sacramento Kings 13.39 14 1.046


The Celtics, with 7th best roster in the NBA, make the most out of their players. And the results on the floor reflect that. With a lot of injured players, they still find ways to win, and win often. You can point at the Garnett factor, but he's been out for a while now, and the Celtics have not stopped winning. The Charlotte Bobcats have the 5th worst roster, yet Larry Brown has them executing like the 17th best team. The Raptors' coaches have the Raptors right where they should be (20th roster and 23rd in results). In my mind, the worst are Phoenix (4th roster and 15th in results) and Golden State (11th roster, 24th in results).

This is my first try at this, so please provide me with your comments and suggestions on how I can improve it.

Couldn't coaching also affect the PER stat artificially raising or lowering it?
I just hope that people will like me
martin
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Alba Posts: 108
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3/10/2009  4:12 PM
interesting concept. at least 2 more things that should be factored in:

- toughness of schedule (east vs west conference) which would qualify wins; ie more wins out west should be a better qualifier than in the east.

- continuity of starting 5. obviously not easy but it would account for a devastating injury to a regular starter - say if Garnett missing like 20 games during the season) - or if the team has undergone turnover (trades).
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jrodmc
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Member: #805
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3/10/2009  4:38 PM
Exactly how is the west tougher than the east? Most of the dregs are located in the west, and in your the chart above the top three teams are in the east. The middle of the pack is a mixed bag of both.

Oh well, I hate statistics anyway.

The best measurement of coaching impact: Larry Brown with the Pistons and Larry Brown with the Knicks.
Is anyone trying to say that Doc Rivers was a .600 coach waiting for the right players?
I think coaching impact can be way overstated. Players can make a great coach a winner. I'd like to see PJackson coaching the Thunder or the Clippers. I don't think there's any statistical way to truly measure coaching impact. Unless they start tracking stats like "forgot how many fouls to give" "continual use of idiotic rotations" "lousy practices" "poor clock management" etc.
oohah
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Member: #887
3/10/2009  4:45 PM
The biggest problem with this formula is calculating the collective PER of a team. That would only be relevant if everybody played the same amount of minutes. Look at the championship Bulls. They were a very top-heavy team. Start weighting this formula for playing time and then you might begin to have something though it would still would not be rooted in reality.


oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Bippity10
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Member: #574
3/10/2009  4:50 PM
Also let's say that Gallinari or Wilson Chandler or both becomes a super clutch next year. Their PER stays about the same but because of their in the clutch single handedly wins all these close games. Does this mean D'Antoni became a better coach?
I just hope that people will like me
JohnWallace44
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Member: #910
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3/11/2009  1:59 AM
MikeK thinks that MikeD is a genius.

Phoenix looked like a rag tag bunch without him.

That's good enough evidence for me.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
OldFan
Posts: 21456
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Joined: 7/24/2003
Member: #446
3/11/2009  7:10 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by djsunyc:

this was posted by supersub on a raptors forum:

How can we measure coaching efficiency? We can obviously watch execution on both ends of the floor with our own eyes, we can wonder how the heck a certain team is winning all those games, etc., but I haven't seen a measurable way that allows us to say: "This coach is getting the most out of the talent on his team" or "This coach is useless". I figured that I'd give it a try.

First, I measured the collective talent level on each team by calculating the collective PER of the roster. This way, we can see who has the most talent on the team:

team                   per
L.A. Lakers 17.09
Cleveland Cavaliers 16.47
Portland TrailBlazers 16.42
Phoenix Suns 16.06
Utah Jazz 15.97
Dallas Mavericks 15.87
Boston Celtics 15.77
Orlando Magic 15.53
New Orleans Hornets 15.51
Atlanta Hawks 15.45
Denver Nuggets 15.34
Golden State Warriors 15.34
San Antonio Spurs 15.31
Miami Heat 15.29
Houston Rockets 15.04
Chicago Bulls 14.88
Philadelphia 76ers 14.86
New Jersey Nets 14.79
Detroit Pistons 14.76
Toronto Raptors 14.66
Indiana Pacers 14.63
New York Knicks 14.53
Milwaukee Bucks 14.38
Washington Wizards 14.08
Minnesota Wolves 13.97
Charlotte Bobcats 13.74
Oklahoma City Thunder 13.73
Memphis Grizzlies 13.56
Los Angeles Clippers 13.48
Sacramento Kings 13.39


As you can see, overall, the best teams are at the top and the dregs are at the bottom. The Raps have the 20th best roster overall, and the 10th best in the East. Obviously, the stronger the talent, the more wins you're going to get. The Lakers, with a collective PER over 17, have more talent at the top that compensate for the lower talent on the bench. When most of your top players are bench-level talent, you end up with a team like Sacramento.

Next step was to measure how many wins each coach has been able to squeeze out of each PER.

team                   per   wins  w/PER
Boston Celtics 15.77 49 3.107
Cleveland Cavaliers 16.47 49 2.975
Orlando Magic 15.53 46 2.962
L.A. Lakers 17.09 50 2.926
Houston Rockets 15.04 42 2.793
San Antonio Spurs 15.31 42 2.743
Denver Nuggets 15.34 40 2.608
New Orleans Hornets 15.51 39 2.515
Utah Jazz 15.97 40 2.505
Portland TrailBlazers 16.42 40 2.436
Dallas Mavericks 15.87 38 2.394
Atlanta Hawks 15.45 36 2.330
Miami Heat 15.29 34 2.224
Detroit Pistons 14.76 32 2.168
Phoenix Suns 16.06 34 2.117
Milwaukee Bucks 14.38 30 2.086
Charlotte Bobcats 13.74 28 2.038
Philadelphia 76ers 14.86 30 2.019
Chicago Bulls 14.88 29 1.949
Indiana Pacers 14.63 28 1.914
New Jersey Nets 14.79 28 1.893
New York Knicks 14.53 25 1.721
Toronto Raptors 14.66 23 1.569
Golden State Warriors 15.34 21 1.369
Minnesota Wolves 13.97 18 1.288
Oklahoma City Thunder 13.73 17 1.238
Memphis Grizzlies 13.56 16 1.180
Los Angeles Clippers 13.48 15 1.113
Washington Wizards 14.08 15 1.065
Sacramento Kings 13.39 14 1.046


The Celtics, with 7th best roster in the NBA, make the most out of their players. And the results on the floor reflect that. With a lot of injured players, they still find ways to win, and win often. You can point at the Garnett factor, but he's been out for a while now, and the Celtics have not stopped winning. The Charlotte Bobcats have the 5th worst roster, yet Larry Brown has them executing like the 17th best team. The Raptors' coaches have the Raptors right where they should be (20th roster and 23rd in results). In my mind, the worst are Phoenix (4th roster and 15th in results) and Golden State (11th roster, 24th in results).

This is my first try at this, so please provide me with your comments and suggestions on how I can improve it.

Couldn't coaching also affect the PER stat artificially raising or lowering it?

Exactly - Per is suppose to help you calculate how much a player helps you win. Making your players better by putting them in a better system is going to improve their per. To me it looks like your taking an imperfect means of measuring a teams winning percentage "PER" and measuring against a perfect measure "wins". I don't think this measures a coach at all.

measuring coaching impact

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