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Rookie
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3/10/2009  12:03 PM
With Lee and N8, we're a 30 win team. They both need to go. N8 is too selfish to play team ball and looks to suffer from a Napoleon complex. Lee is the worst defended on the team, and now that Wilcox and Hughes are blocking out (imagine that, what a concept) under the basket EVERYONE IS GETTING MORE REBOUNDS. If we are going to become a team that can win, they must go.

Please Donnie, turn them into 2009/2010 first round draft picks. I will never ever ask for anything ever again
AUTOADVERT
JohnWallace44
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3/10/2009  12:16 PM
That's a fair argument. We would need specific types of complimenting players to make Lee and Nate really thrive. It would be easier to trade them for picks and rebuild completely.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Rookie
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3/10/2009  12:32 PM
I wonder if OKC can't get their boy Blake Griffin if they'd trade their pick to us for Lee. They're already stocked with young talent. Jordan Hill would be a nice upgrade at the PF position to Lee. He does alot of the things that Lee doesn't do
Rookie
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3/10/2009  12:40 PM
Hill's got some game:

12/20/2008
Strengths: One of the most improved players this year … Has the ideal size and length for a PF … He has worked on his body, adding some bulk and definition to an already wiry frame; this new strength allows him to get great position on the block where he is able to utilize a number of moves, but he prefers the left shoulder hook shot … He is comfortable operating from the high post, either shooting a nice looking midrange shot, or utilizing his quickness and putting the ball on the floor to get to the hoop … His faceup game developed nicely; not only has he become a consistent threat out to about 17 feet, but he has added some nice sweep and jab moves to go along with it … Even with the added muscle, he has maintained good mobility and quickness … This season he is playing big minutes but he continues to battle and run the floor, showing a very good motor … He has become a rebounding force on both ends of the floor, he attacks the O glass relentlessly and is able to use his body to control the paint on the defensive end … He has cut down his fouls and increased blocks to 3 per game, proving not only that he is a defensive presence but also that he has become more disciplined … With his developing frame and ability to knock down midrange shots, he has the potential to become a very good weapon in screen & roll situations …

3/13/2008
Strengths: A freakish athlete with great leaping ability and a long frame ... Very aggressive at taking the ball to the basket and usually tries to finish everything with a dunk ... Plays bigger than 6-10 with his long arms and explosive leaping ability. Extremely light on his feet and quick to explode to the basket ... Has really developed into a force inside for the Wildcats in a short time ... Has become a factor defensively as he's an excellent shot blocker who is able to intimidate opponents ... Has a solid skill set developing. Post moves and footwork are improving nicely. He can use the dribble to get around opponents and is beginning to understand when to kick it out and not force things, and when to attack the basket ... Runs the floor exceptionally well, thriving on the break with highlight finishes ... Has developed his mid-range shot to the point where it is relatively consistent and showing very solid potential ... Free throw shooting is under 70% but showed vast improvement from his freshman season. Hill has good touch and a solid motion giving him solid promise from the line ...\
fishmike
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3/10/2009  1:20 PM
Wolves were a 30 win team with KG. Good thing they got rid of him
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Rookie
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3/10/2009  1:32 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Wolves were a 30 win team with KG. Good thing they got rid of him


You can't be serious. Are you really going to compare Lee to Garnet???? Kind of ironic considering Garnet was the 07/08 defensive player of the year and has consistently put up numbers EVERY year that Lee can only dream about.
arkrud
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3/10/2009  1:33 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Wolves were a 30 win team with KG. Good thing they got rid of him

Brilliant...
What then Celts did?

[Edited by - arkrud on 03-10-2009 1:33 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
fishmike
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3/10/2009  2:15 PM
your arguement is the Knicks are as good as they are ever going to get with Lee and Nate so we should get rid of them now. Wolves thought the same thing with KG and the guy goes and wins a title. Your logic there is flawed and your patience non existant. They are 24-25. They are parts of a team, not the entire team. If you trade them for other players that betting fit into your plan then fine, but they are good players on a team of not very good players.

How do you feel about Joe Johnson and Josh Smith? Should the Hawks dump that duo that brought them to 26 wins two years ago (they both had GREAT seasons).

If you want to go starphuck than fine. If you want to build a good team you have to be patient.

Nobody here is saying lets build around Lee and Nate, but they are good players and impact games and have shown they can win games. We have no center, no guards and no defenders. Our best small is 5'7 sparkplug off the bench. Lets focus on that before we dump the guy that gets you 17/12 on 57% every night.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Rookie
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3/10/2009  2:48 PM
"your arguement is the Knicks are as good as they are ever going to get with Lee and Nate so we should get rid of them now."

No, my argument is that Lee and N8 are as good as they are going to get and are not worth long term contracts in the 5-8M range. Let's stop paying players more than they are worth. Let their weaknesses be some other teams headache. We need to sign better players to long term contracts.
"Wolves thought the same thing with KG and the guy goes and wins a title. Your logic there is flawed and your patience non existant. They are 24-25. They are parts of a team, not the entire team. If you trade them for other players that betting fit into your plan then fine, but they are good players on a team of not very good players."

First off, the Wolves got Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Sebastian Telfair, Gerald Green, Theo Ratliff, cash considerations, Boston's 2009 first-round draft pick (top 3 protected) and the 2009 first-round pick Minnesota had traded to Boston in the Ricky Davis-Wally Szczerbiak trade of 2006. Not bad wouldn't you say?

Secondly, sorry if I hit a raw nerve by picking on your favorite players, but they suck. N8 is a mental midget who can't pass the ball. He will not change, in fact, his head is only getting bigger. He needs to be center stage all the time. There's no room for the rest of the team in his one man act. Lee's numbers don't impress me. He's an OK player but that's it. I wouldn't pay him 8M, I'd rather get a draft pick for him.

"If you want to go starphuck than fine. If you want to build a good team you have to be patient."

Yeah sure, whatever. I guess if looking to add first round draft picks makes me a starphucker then so be it. If looking to develop young players makes me impatient then I guess I'm guilty as charged.

"Nobody here is saying lets build around Lee and Nate" Good thing because they aren't even good reliable role players. They have too many flaws that make them a liability on a winning team.

"but they are good players and impact games and have shown they can win games." Completely disagree here. They impact games in a negative way. Lee can't post up or shoot the midrange shot and and other teams run right at him on defense. His rebounds and pick and roll play can be replaced by a younger player with more skill (like Jordan Hill) for alot less money and less years. N8 stagnates a game till everyone is just standing around. It's all about the N8 show.

"We have no center, no guards and no defenders. Our best small is 5'7 sparkplug off the bench. Lets focus on that before we dump the guy that gets you 17/12 on 57% every night."

I'm not saying we dump them, I'm saying we shouldn't commit to long term contracts in the 5-8M range. We should trade them this summer while their value is high and try and get some 1st round draft picks. That is all. All the rest is stuff that you are reading into it that is just total bull****.


fishmike
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3/10/2009  3:12 PM
Posted by Rookie:
No, my argument is that Lee and N8 are as good as they are going to get and are not worth long term contracts in the 5-8M range.
those are more than fair contracts. What are you basing that value on? If every team had cap space there isnt a team that wouldnt sign Nate to a full MLE deal (5 years $36mm) or Lee to a 5 year $40mm starting at $7.5mm.

Lee and Nate are good productive players who have shown they can win games and play against high level competition. What are you basing their worth on? If this team was playing .500 ball we would be like the 5th seed and people would be talking about how important it is to resign them. We have no starting backcourt, no centers and no defensive players. Thats why this team stinks.

If you want to call a guy out on being as good as he's going to get the problem is Duhon. He's a good player but not durable enough for starting 82 games and not talented enough to lead a good team without massive help. He's Charlie Ward, and thats fine... except we dont have Ewing, LJ, Oak, Starks and Harper starting in front of him.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
newyorknewyork
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3/10/2009  3:21 PM
So what happens with the next group of young guys looking to get paid? Do we trade them away for picks as well. That reminds me of the formula that the LA Clippers used for a long time. Rent there lottery picks for the yrs of there rookie contracts then get rid of them when its time to pay them.

I also see Lee improving his jumper as he continually works on it. His defense will always be a concern but he is only getting stronger and stronger as a scorer rebounder. He also has come on strong with his back to basket game and finishing after he backs his man down. Nate Robinson is what he is though as a strong scorer.

I would jump on 5-8mil range. Its the 8-12 range that they are going to want though. I would like to keep both players, they are not THE problem. We need an upgrade at PG,SG,C and we need a franchise player. I would not move Lee or Nate unless it helped us land that franchise player. To get rid of them only because we aren't looking to pay them isn't productive for us trying to be a contender. Especially when all we would need to do is wait one more yr and let Curry & Jeffries expire.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
Nalod
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3/10/2009  3:30 PM
Can you really draft better players if you turn n8 and Dlee into picks?

We have needs, no doubt but who plays with the "franchise player".

And not all picks pan out.

Im not saying we don't trade these guys, but straight up for picks is even more risky.

You can make those two better with chemistry.

I would suggest that Dlee not be the best big we have, but he might very well make one even better. You think Dlee with Dwight howard would not make both of them better? Even Eddy did very well with Dlee.

Chemistry is important.
Rookie
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3/10/2009  3:31 PM
Let's take Mr. double double. Tell me you don't cringe every time he takes an outside shot? Wouldn't it be nice if he could post up once in a while to give us an easy basket late in a game? Wouldn't it be nice if he could block a few shots or become a defensive presence? Maybe attack the offensive boards? Well it's never going to happen. He's one of the reasons we lose every game in the fourth quarter. I would not look to sign him for 5 years because we might be able to trade him and get a high draft pick, hopefully someone who can do those things (like Hill for example).

Then there's N8 the great. I'd much rather have a traditional 6'6" SG or a true PG. There's no way he will be happy coming off the bench next year as the 6th man.
Bippity10
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3/10/2009  3:41 PM
I like both of these guys and both can be productive players on a winning team if given the right role. That being said, we need a couple guys that actually affect winning
I just hope that people will like me
fishmike
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3/10/2009  3:45 PM
Posted by Rookie:

Let's take Mr. double double. Tell me you don't cringe every time he takes an outside shot? Wouldn't it be nice if he could post up once in a while to give us an easy basket late in a game? Wouldn't it be nice if he could block a few shots or become a defensive presence? Maybe attack the offensive boards? Well it's never going to happen. He's one of the reasons we lose every game in the fourth quarter. I would not look to sign him for 5 years because we might be able to trade him and get a high draft pick, hopefully someone who can do those things (like Hill for example).

Then there's N8 the great. I'd much rather have a traditional 6'6" SG or a true PG. There's no way he will be happy coming off the bench next year as the 6th man.

attack the offensive boards? Lee doesnt do that? Do you watch any Knick basketball?

Would I like to see all those things you mentioned? I dont really care. I care about improving this roster. So I look at the weakest positions that contribute the least to start my upgrades. Those are PG, SG and C. If I needed to improve my bench I this draft would be great, because there are 2 all stars and 20 bench players coming out.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
newyorknewyork
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3/10/2009  3:46 PM
Posted by Rookie:

Let's take Mr. double double. Tell me you don't cringe every time he takes an outside shot? Wouldn't it be nice if he could post up once in a while to give us an easy basket late in a game? Wouldn't it be nice if he could block a few shots or become a defensive presence? Maybe attack the offensive boards? Well it's never going to happen. He's one of the reasons we lose every game in the fourth quarter. I would not look to sign him for 5 years because we might be able to trade him and get a high draft pick, hopefully someone who can do those things (like Hill for example).

Then there's N8 the great. I'd much rather have a traditional 6'6" SG or a true PG. There's no way he will be happy coming off the bench next year as the 6th man.

The problem with your view is that rather then appreciating Lee for being one of the few reasons why this team with all these holes in it is able to compete every game. You are blaming him for not being able to carry us for wins in the 4th quarter. Lee isn't close to being Dwight Howard, but he is a good piece to have next to a franchise player. I would say he is a great 3rd option on a championship team.
https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
fishmike
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3/10/2009  3:55 PM
By the time Lee's defense needs to be addressed we should be winning 45 games at least. Then you can start looking to plug holes. Now lets just balance the roster. Geeze
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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3/10/2009  3:56 PM
Posted by Rookie:

Hill's got some game:

12/20/2008
Strengths: One of the most improved players this year … Has the ideal size and length for a PF … He has worked on his body, adding some bulk and definition to an already wiry frame; this new strength allows him to get great position on the block where he is able to utilize a number of moves, but he prefers the left shoulder hook shot … He is comfortable operating from the high post, either shooting a nice looking midrange shot, or utilizing his quickness and putting the ball on the floor to get to the hoop … His faceup game developed nicely; not only has he become a consistent threat out to about 17 feet, but he has added some nice sweep and jab moves to go along with it … Even with the added muscle, he has maintained good mobility and quickness … This season he is playing big minutes but he continues to battle and run the floor, showing a very good motor … He has become a rebounding force on both ends of the floor, he attacks the O glass relentlessly and is able to use his body to control the paint on the defensive end … He has cut down his fouls and increased blocks to 3 per game, proving not only that he is a defensive presence but also that he has become more disciplined … With his developing frame and ability to knock down midrange shots, he has the potential to become a very good weapon in screen & roll situations …

3/13/2008
Strengths: A freakish athlete with great leaping ability and a long frame ... Very aggressive at taking the ball to the basket and usually tries to finish everything with a dunk ... Plays bigger than 6-10 with his long arms and explosive leaping ability. Extremely light on his feet and quick to explode to the basket ... Has really developed into a force inside for the Wildcats in a short time ... Has become a factor defensively as he's an excellent shot blocker who is able to intimidate opponents ... Has a solid skill set developing. Post moves and footwork are improving nicely. He can use the dribble to get around opponents and is beginning to understand when to kick it out and not force things, and when to attack the basket ... Runs the floor exceptionally well, thriving on the break with highlight finishes ... Has developed his mid-range shot to the point where it is relatively consistent and showing very solid potential ... Free throw shooting is under 70% but showed vast improvement from his freshman season. Hill has good touch and a solid motion giving him solid promise from the line ...\


couldn't agree more about Hill... the kid's got all the tools that would make him a perfect fit for this system... he can bang down low, he's a freakish athlete, can run the floor, play defense down low, blocks shots, can hit a midrange J & is a real lively rebounder in the paint just like Lee is... if Donnie ever decided to trade Lee or Nate for extra picks like i was talking about at the deadline then a kid like Jordan Hill or Patrick Patterson would make excellent replacements for Lee in this system.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Rookie
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3/10/2009  3:58 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Rookie:

Let's take Mr. double double. Tell me you don't cringe every time he takes an outside shot? Wouldn't it be nice if he could post up once in a while to give us an easy basket late in a game? Wouldn't it be nice if he could block a few shots or become a defensive presence? Maybe attack the offensive boards? Well it's never going to happen. He's one of the reasons we lose every game in the fourth quarter. I would not look to sign him for 5 years because we might be able to trade him and get a high draft pick, hopefully someone who can do those things (like Hill for example).

Then there's N8 the great. I'd much rather have a traditional 6'6" SG or a true PG. There's no way he will be happy coming off the bench next year as the 6th man.

attack the offensive boards? Lee doesnt do that? Do you watch any Knick basketball?

Would I like to see all those things you mentioned? I dont really care. I care about improving this roster. So I look at the weakest positions that contribute the least to start my upgrades. Those are PG, SG and C. If I needed to improve my bench I this draft would be great, because there are 2 all stars and 20 bench players coming out.

Lee just doesn't have the size to be physical inside. Watch Wilcox on the boards. He blocks out and creates holes. When he's out there Harrington has been grabbing boards because Wilcox creates space. Lee actually looked good on defense against the Bobcats...of course he didn't get his dbl/dbl so what does he do? He comes out against NJ and gets his dbl/dbl but played the worst defense I've ever seen him play....which is why I'm ranting now.
Rookie
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3/10/2009  4:13 PM
Posted by TMS:


couldn't agree more about Hill... the kid's got all the tools that would make him a perfect fit for this system... he can bang down low, he's a freakish athlete, can run the floor, play defense down low, blocks shots, can hit a midrange J & is a real lively rebounder in the paint just like Lee is... if Donnie ever decided to trade Lee or Nate for extra picks like i was talking about at the deadline then a kid like Jordan Hill or Patrick Patterson would make excellent replacements for Lee in this system.


Yeah baby...this is new ****ing york baby...we seriously need a banger down low....and it ain't ever going to be Lee. I'm loving this guy Hill for MDA's system. He could be a real force on both ends.

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