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Where are the easy points?
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Vmart
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2/28/2009  11:38 AM
I thought D'Antoni's offense was predicated on ball movement and easy opportunities. So far I have seen the Knicks offense become half court offense with a flurry of three point shooting. What happened to the push the ball up and get layups and easy 5-10 foot jumpers? All I see lately is passing the ball around the perimeter and shoot the three ball. Guys catching the ball dribbling to the basket, namely Harrington and Nate. Pick and roll with Lee and Duhon. Where is the slashers to the basket and where are those 5-10 foot jumpers that MDA system produced regularly in Phoenix. The Knicks stopped running and pushing the ball up.

Duhon has to start pushing the tempo of the team up and stop licking his fingers. They didn't play like this in when the season started they were attacking now they stopped attacking. MDA has to stick to a lineup he is flip flopping to much with the lineup. Last night there was no reason to start Q. Stick with the plan with the future in mind.
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Cosmic
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2/28/2009  12:20 PM
I think you just answered your own question by pointing a finger at Duhon. Doesn't appear to be the type of point guard to run this offense and certainly lacks creativity. The problem is a number of our rotation players don't fit the offense either so even if Duhon starts a good play it ends with the one pass. We've been reduced back to a walk it up, dump it off to a guard or forward, and watch them go 1-1 offense.



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Uptown
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2/28/2009  12:26 PM
Easy points usually come in the paint. With out a legit post player, its now up to the guards or wing players to slash and create. Unfortunately, we dont have that type of player on this team. Duhon isn't the type of point guard that gets into the lane. draws defenders and dishes for open looks. Its not really nates game either. When he does get into the lane, he's looking to shoot, not set up teammates for open looks.
oohah
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2/28/2009  12:26 PM
The Knicks sorely need a guard who can penetrate at will and be a threat to finish. This will cause the defense to sag and create easy opportunities for the other players.

Where on earth could they have found a player such as that?

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
nyk4ever
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2/28/2009  12:29 PM
Posted by oohah:

The Knicks sorely need a guard who can penetrate at will and be a threat to finish. This will cause the defense to sag and create easy opportunities for the other players.

Where on earth could they have found a player such as that?

oohah

Dude Marbury is gone, stop bitching about it.
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oohah
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2/28/2009  12:37 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:


Dude Marbury is gone, stop bitching about it.

Marbury? Heavens to Betsy, I was not referring to Marbury! Is penetrating what he does well?

However, if I were referring to Marbury, it would have been in regard to the past around 50 games where he could have been of use to the Knicks while building up his own value that could have been used for another asset, while keeping Duhon's minutes manageable so his body would not break down as it has, which I believe is a repercussion that is still current. Or, if Marbury were not traded for another asset, well, I guess we would have had an outstanding penetrator as you have kindly pointed out to me!

So the prevailing wisdom is that once any kind of move is made we must immediately stop talking about it?

oohah


Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Allanfan20
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2/28/2009  1:02 PM
Posted by oohah:

The Knicks sorely need a guard who can penetrate at will and be a threat to finish. This will cause the defense to sag and create easy opportunities for the other players.


oohah

He was also a horrible locker room presence, didn't know how to do anything else besides penetrate and shoot an occasional shot (At this point in his career). To me, his negatives far outweigh is positives.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
NineMike2Whiskey
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2/28/2009  1:02 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by nyk4ever:


Dude Marbury is gone, stop bitching about it.

Marbury? Heavens to Betsy, I was not referring to Marbury! Is penetrating what he does well?

However, if I were referring to Marbury, it would have been in regard to the past around 50 games where he could have been of use to the Knicks while building up his own value that could have been used for another asset, while keeping Duhon's minutes manageable so his body would not break down as it has, which I believe is a repercussion that is still current. Or, if Marbury were not traded for another asset, well, I guess we would have had an outstanding penetrator as you have kindly pointed out to me!

So the prevailing wisdom is that once any kind of move is made we must immediately stop talking about it?

oohah

I think nothing could have rehabilitated Marbury's value not with his attitude, losing record and an albatross contract. Playing him would be a distraction we could use without and i dont think we could have gotten something back that can be construed as an asset... i mean this is one guy thats really burnt his bridges.

PS Thats not to say we cant talk bout moves once its made but maybe..u can be less like isles
oohah
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2/28/2009  1:24 PM
He was also a horrible locker room presence, didn't know how to do anything else besides penetrate and shoot an occasional shot (At this point in his career). To me, his negatives far outweigh is positives.

What I bolded is exactly what we needed isn't it?
I think nothing could have rehabilitated Marbury's value not with his attitude, losing record and an albatross contract. Playing him would be a distraction we could use without and i dont think we could have gotten something back that can be construed as an asset... i mean this is one guy thats really burnt his bridges.

You guys keep going on about the locker room, selfishness etc. Are you even aware of Larry Hughes', Tim Thomas', and Al Harrington's reputations? Have you seen how selfish those guys play? Apparently Marbury's losing record and attitude were not so much of a negative as we imagined because he played less than 72 hours after we gave him away for nothing.

And what exactly would Marbury have ruinied with the KNicks this season? A team that is going to be completely turned over and is going to miss the playoffs yet again? He is going to ruin the culture of Al Harrington and Larry Hughes chucking?

It isn't about rehabilitation, it is about getting some value for your assets. Zach Randolph had a horrible reputation (Though I hated that trade.), Crawford is a nice guy with a poor reputation as a player.

All they had to do was establish Marbury as a still-capable player. A 23 million dollar expiring contract has value within itself. A 23 million dollar contract that is expiring is not an albatross, it is one of the most valuable things a team can have to use as a chip, especially with a player that can still play.

And no, we would not necessarily have had to take back more bad contracts. Maybe we could have landed a useful player who expires next year. Or maybe a decent young player, or a big man so David Lee wouldn't have to play out of position, or a draft pic, any draft. Have you noticed how many money-driven moves teams are looking to make?

Instead we got nothing! Not even the easy points that Vmart asked about and NYK4ever explained to me that Marbury would have provided.

The handling of Marbury made no sense, was completely short-sighted and completely about personal agendas, and he beat the Knicks, hands down. Everybody should understand this.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 28-02-2009 1:25 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Allanfan20
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2/28/2009  1:26 PM
Posted by oohah:
He was also a horrible locker room presence, didn't know how to do anything else besides penetrate and shoot an occasional shot (At this point in his career). To me, his negatives far outweigh is positives.

What I bolded is exactly what we needed isn't it?

And take a look at the sentence after b/c I said his negatives outweigh his positives. I would have the team struggle getting easy points then have him on the team this year.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
newyorknewyork
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2/28/2009  1:28 PM
Posted by oohah:

The Knicks sorely need a guard who can penetrate at will and be a threat to finish. This will cause the defense to sag and create easy opportunities for the other players.

Where on earth could they have found a player such as that?

oohah

Nate Robinson?

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oohah
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2/28/2009  1:30 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by oohah:
He was also a horrible locker room presence, didn't know how to do anything else besides penetrate and shoot an occasional shot (At this point in his career). To me, his negatives far outweigh is positives.

What I bolded is exactly what we needed isn't it?

And take a look at the sentence after b/c I said his negatives outweigh his positives. I would have the team struggle getting easy points then have him on the team this year.

And take a look at the rest of what I wrote because I beleive your view is short-sighted taking into account that the entire team is turning over, we are accumulating players who are as selfish as he, yet worse, and they are headed out of the playoffs again.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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2/28/2009  1:33 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by oohah:

The Knicks sorely need a guard who can penetrate at will and be a threat to finish. This will cause the defense to sag and create easy opportunities for the other players.

Where on earth could they have found a player such as that?

oohah

Nate Robinson?

Unfortunately Nate Robinson is not enough and he generally looks for his own shot. Also, his points are not 'easy', are they? Teams are going to start clamping down on Robinson more and more because he is the only true scorer in the back-court. D'Antoni knew this, that is why he wanted Marbury back when Crawford was traded.

oohah


Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
NineMike2Whiskey
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2/28/2009  1:40 PM
Posted by oohah:



You guys keep going on about the locker room, selfishness etc. Are you even aware of Larry Hughes', Tim Thomas', and Al Harrington's reputations? Have you seen how selfish those guys play? Apparently Marbury's losing record and attitude were not so much of a negative as we imagined because he played less than 72 hours after we gave him away for nothing.


[Edited by - oohah on 28-02-2009 1:25 PM]

Agreed we did give him away for nothing but IMO if somebody were to trade for him it would be for his expiring, not for his skillset and the baggage that comes along with it and if Donnie had found that one trade that benefited us as well i believed he would have pulled the trigger. I believe this was the case, there just werent any offers or if they were they were just too unattractive.

Also I remember this team had practically quit on Marbury when he walked out last year. What kind of message would we be sending out if we welcome him back? What kind of record would we have if most of our players, including those that are playing well like Nate, Lee and CHandler quit on him? I doubt they'd be putting up the numbers they are now and this is important when it comes to Nate and Lee who are both potential trade assets.

Just my 2 cents.
oohah
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2/28/2009  1:49 PM
Agreed we did give him away for nothing but IMO if somebody were to trade for him it would be for his expiring, not for his skillset and the baggage that comes along with it and if Donnie had found that one trade that benefited us as well i believed he would have pulled the trigger. I believe this was the case, there just werent any offers or if they were they were just too unattractive.

I think it would have been for his skillset and his expiring contract. Look at what happened in Orlando. The Celtics picked him up for his skills did they not?

Unfortunately, Marbury was completely devalued on both front because of the way the Knicks handled him in his expiring year. So if Walsh did try to trade him, his hands were tied.
Also I remember this team had practically quit on Marbury when he walked out last year. What kind of message would we be sending out if we welcome him back? What kind of record would we have if most of our players, including those that are playing well like Nate, Lee and CHandler quit on him? I doubt they'd be putting up the numbers they are now and this is important when it comes to Nate and Lee who are both potential trade assets.

Who cares about the message or the quitting? Just like everybody has said about Marbury, these guys get paid to play don't they? Robinson and Lee are in contract years so they have every reason to go balls-out regardless of the situation.

In any case, this team is not the team of even the near future so the idea should always have been to get what you can from every single one of them to set us up for the future.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
BlueSeats
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2/28/2009  2:54 PM
Ooh, I don't know what surprises Marbury has in store this year, but the last couple of years his FG% has been around .417, which is not stellar for a so called penetrator. Back in the day, when he had speed and lift, he was around .460.

He's also not known as a creative PG. D' didn't even consider him a PG back in Phoenix.

Nate is better than Marbury at the point in the game.

This is a lot of fuss over a max-contract, poisonous, backup combo guard.

[Edited by - blueseats on 02-28-2009 2:55 PM]
TMS
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2/28/2009  4:15 PM
Posted by oohah:
He was also a horrible locker room presence, didn't know how to do anything else besides penetrate and shoot an occasional shot (At this point in his career). To me, his negatives far outweigh is positives.

What I bolded is exactly what we needed isn't it?
I think nothing could have rehabilitated Marbury's value not with his attitude, losing record and an albatross contract. Playing him would be a distraction we could use without and i dont think we could have gotten something back that can be construed as an asset... i mean this is one guy thats really burnt his bridges.

You guys keep going on about the locker room, selfishness etc. Are you even aware of Larry Hughes', Tim Thomas', and Al Harrington's reputations? Have you seen how selfish those guys play? Apparently Marbury's losing record and attitude were not so much of a negative as we imagined because he played less than 72 hours after we gave him away for nothing.

And what exactly would Marbury have ruinied with the KNicks this season? A team that is going to be completely turned over and is going to miss the playoffs yet again? He is going to ruin the culture of Al Harrington and Larry Hughes chucking?

It isn't about rehabilitation, it is about getting some value for your assets. Zach Randolph had a horrible reputation (Though I hated that trade.), Crawford is a nice guy with a poor reputation as a player.

All they had to do was establish Marbury as a still-capable player. A 23 million dollar expiring contract has value within itself. A 23 million dollar contract that is expiring is not an albatross, it is one of the most valuable things a team can have to use as a chip, especially with a player that can still play.

And no, we would not necessarily have had to take back more bad contracts. Maybe we could have landed a useful player who expires next year. Or maybe a decent young player, or a big man so David Lee wouldn't have to play out of position, or a draft pic, any draft. Have you noticed how many money-driven moves teams are looking to make?

Instead we got nothing! Not even the easy points that Vmart asked about and NYK4ever explained to me that Marbury would have provided.

The handling of Marbury made no sense, was completely short-sighted and completely about personal agendas, and he beat the Knicks, hands down. Everybody should understand this.

oohah
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[Edited by - oohah on 28-02-2009 1:25 PM]

i love all these assumptions ur making as if they were a given that teams were willing to give us something of value for Marbs' contract... Donnie already spoke on that issue but i guess u have ur sources that indicate otherwise.
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CrushAlot
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2/28/2009  4:45 PM
Marbury was never going to listen to D'. He has a very flawed ego and has not moved on from the assumption that he was in charge of the franchise as he was until last year when Isiah tried to take back all of the power he had given Marbury. In my opinion Marbury never saw anyone as being as important as he was and this was not going to change with a coaching change. Marbury's teammates voted to not have him back last year after his fight with Isiah and unexcused absence. Look at how the Giant players are defending Plexico. Marbury was never a part of the team. He has no friends, no one he ran with, nobody came out and said we need Steph or this isn't right. No one said Steph could get us over the hump. Marbury is unique in how flawed his perspective is and in his inability to have relationships with others. Remember the first time Tim Thomas was traded. He said he was shocked when Steph gave him an ipod loaded with tunes because he and Steph were not really friends. Marbury maybe fine in Boston for the rest of the year because they have three guys on that team who are better than he ever was and even with his ego he has to recognize what they have accomplished. However, if he ends up in any other situation I do not think he will be successful.
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JohnWallace44
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2/28/2009  5:19 PM
The offense is fine. We're a tiny team with mostly players that are afraid of contact.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
misterearl
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2/28/2009  5:30 PM
JohnWallace44 - what you said

Dalembert was much too imposing for our small center. Yeah I know Jeffries is 6'11 but he plays 6'5. And that's being generous.

We need a center... preferably two.
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