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FrenchKnicks
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2/17/2009  8:16 AM
Guys, let's imagine that Nate and Lee are focused on winning a title in NY. Would they both accept a 1-year deal at a very good salary, so that they could be resigned in 2010 along one or two max free agents ? We could indeed offer LeBron and Bosh max salaries and then resign our own free agents ?
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Pharzeone
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2/17/2009  8:38 AM
Billy Hunter would go on a murdering spree at MSG if that happens.
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JohnWallace44
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2/17/2009  9:04 AM
Please refer to the thread "Stop the Madness"

The 2010 plan only includes signing two max free agents unless we can shed Curry, Jeffries or both.

We cannot resign players like Lee, Nate, Al, Duhon or anyone else once we fill out the cap. We can only sign players for the minimum league salary at that point.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
JohnWallace44
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2/17/2009  9:14 AM
The "Dream Scenario" is that we're not just getting played and the 2010 plan works, and we land two top flight players... even though that plan is more flawed than the press wants to admit. (we're not going to be contenders right away with LeBron, Bosh and an empty roster)

The alternate Dream Scenario is that the economy forces teams to shed salary to the point where we can take advantage of our expiring contracts and get superstars in here without the 2010 plan. You won't get LeBron via trade, but if things get tough for these owners, maybe you get a few guys at the next tier.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
FrenchKnicks
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2/17/2009  9:28 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Please refer to the thread "Stop the Madness"

The 2010 plan only includes signing two max free agents unless we can shed Curry, Jeffries or both.

We cannot resign players like Lee, Nate, Al, Duhon or anyone else once we fill out the cap. We can only sign players for the minimum league salary at that point.

Of course you can sign your own free agents even if you're over the cap... otherwise, how would you go over the cap by such a huge margin ?
JohnWallace44
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2/17/2009  9:40 AM
Not in one year you can't. We have to relinquish Duhon, Al, Timmay, and all the rest from their "Bird Rights" or else they have "cap holds" which are estimated salary slots that would keep us from signing two Max players.

Once we sign these two saviors, any of the Knicks from the 09/10 roster would be treated just like any other free agent. We won't be able to sign them above the cap. We can only sign them with minimum NBA exception money.

That is the big misconception most people have about how great the 2010 plan is. The 2010 plan only includes the following players;

Curry
Jeffries
Gallo
Chandler
2009 1st round pick
Max Player 1
Max Player 2

That's it and that's all folks.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
FrenchKnicks
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2/17/2009  9:47 AM
Thanks for the explanation JW44, I didn't know that.
JohnWallace44
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2/17/2009  10:05 AM
took me a while to figure it out too - the press makes it seem like we'll be able to sign the whole world in 2010

We really will only have a couple of guys on the roster and a bunch of minimum salary guys... which makes Gallo's development all the more critical.

Here's the real stunner to get your head around as well...

If this plan goes through as it is laid out today and best case, we sign LeBron and Bosh...

Our starting PG will be a minimum salary guy... might as well be the best available Rucker league player.

Hopefully we're in position to draft a good PG this year to make sure that doesn't happen.

Jennings will likely be gone. Rubio is going to wait until 2010. We're talking Teague or Mills type players.

We should probably take a player like Flynn in the 2nd round as well so that we can have two PG's with some experience in 2010.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
arkrud
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2/17/2009  10:25 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Not in one year you can't. We have to relinquish Duhon, Al, Timmay, and all the rest from their "Bird Rights" or else they have "cap holds" which are estimated salary slots that would keep us from signing two Max players.

Once we sign these two saviors, any of the Knicks from the 09/10 roster would be treated just like any other free agent. We won't be able to sign them above the cap. We can only sign them with minimum NBA exception money.

That is the big misconception most people have about how great the 2010 plan is. The 2010 plan only includes the following players;

Curry
Jeffries
Gallo
Chandler
2009 1st round pick
Max Player 1
Max Player 2

That's it and that's all folks.

Now the interesting questions are coming:

Are Lee+Nate+Duhon <=> that Max Player 2?
And can we convince (Max Player 1 + Max Player 2) to come to the team with (Curry+Jeffries+Gallo+Chandler+2009 1st round pick) on the roster?

I believe star players agents know this math better that anybody and can solve these simple equations... But I am afraid the solution is NOT NY Knicks...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Allanfan20
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2/17/2009  10:37 AM
I've said it a million times before and I'm saying it again. There's no chance in hell that Nate and Lee take the one year exception. It would be stupid on their part. If they get injured next year, then there goes their max contract that they dream of getting and their goes their job security, especially considering that a lockout is on the horizon.

Secondly, there's no shot we land TWO FAs. There's like a 5% chance we land just one, but think of it. Why would LeBron or Wade want to lead their contenders for a rebuilding team that doesn't have much to dream of. Our roster wont be that desirable if we prepare for 2 FAs. It wont be desireable at all actually. I know I wouldn't choose the Knicks.

We're just gonna have to do our best to trade Jefferies, get Curry back on the court and pray that the salary cap doesn't plummet as much as people say and draft well and hope we can trade for a pick next year.

Gutting a team to it's bare bones, and taking some of those bones away wont attract LeBron and Wade and Bosh, let alone two of them. If two play together, it's going to be in Cleveland where they already have a team in place that's competing.

We're going to have to forget about two FAs.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
JohnWallace44
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2/17/2009  10:40 AM
I'd rather keep Nate and Lee and use our expiring deals to gain draft picks and build from within, but that's just me.

2010 will be one of the worst years in team history if Lee and Nate are allowed to walk.

The roster will have nothing on it but Chandler and whatever we end up drafting this year.

I would expect to have somewhere close to the worst record in the league next year. Worst part about that? Utah has our 2010 pick.

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Allanfan20
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2/17/2009  10:47 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I'd rather keep Nate and Lee and use our expiring deals to gain draft picks and build from within, but that's just me.

2010 will be one of the worst years in team history if Lee and Nate are allowed to walk.

The roster will have nothing on it but Chandler and whatever we end up drafting this year.

I would expect to have somewhere close to the worst record in the league next year. Worst part about that? Utah has our 2010 pick.

I would expect to have somewhere close to the worst record in the league next year. Worst part about that? Utah has our 2010 pick.

Yes sir. No Nate + No Lee + No Lotto Pick + No Playoffs (Given)= No LeBron. He already insulted this team in the past, as it is now. Wade has come out and said he's not coming to NY. Gutting this team and making it an even more losing team is HORRIBLE business. It's not going to attract anyone and it's going to look bad in the eyes of the NBA, in general.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
arkrud
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2/17/2009  11:18 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I'd rather keep Nate and Lee and use our expiring deals to gain draft picks and build from within, but that's just me.

2010 will be one of the worst years in team history if Lee and Nate are allowed to walk.

The roster will have nothing on it but Chandler and whatever we end up drafting this year.

I would expect to have somewhere close to the worst record in the league next year. Worst part about that? Utah has our 2010 pick.

I would expect to have somewhere close to the worst record in the league next year. Worst part about that? Utah has our 2010 pick.

Yes sir. No Nate + No Lee + No Lotto Pick + No Playoffs (Given)= No LeBron. He already insulted this team in the past, as it is now. Wade has come out and said he's not coming to NY. Gutting this team and making it an even more losing team is HORRIBLE business. It's not going to attract anyone and it's going to look bad in the eyes of the NBA, in general.

Amen...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
DrAlphaeus
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2/17/2009  3:11 PM
Since everyone loves bringing up 2010, I'm coming up with a retort mantra:

2004 Detroit Pistons

Look into your heart of hearts. Wouldn't you *really* love to get a trophy with a team like that? Who were the two superstars on that team? All-Stars for sure. I think I even saw Chauncey Billups in a sneaker commercial once! Or Ben Wallace on a video game box. But superstars?

That was flat out a bunch of great players in a system perfect for them at the right time in history. Wouldn't you rather have that people?
Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
TheSage
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2/17/2009  5:04 PM
I believe that the Bird exception would be applicable to Nate and Lee if we were to sign a Lebron or a Wade and use up our cap space. I see bothing in the exceptions rules which would not allow us to sign our own players who have been with us for 4 years.
TMS
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2/17/2009  5:18 PM
u guys are absolutely right... no team that doesn't make the playoffs can attact any bigname stars to want to play there to try & win a championship... just look at what happened w/the Boston Celtics... oh wait.

this notion that we absolutely must retain both Lee & Nate to attract a bigname FA in 2010 is silliness... having the cap space to sign another bigname in lieu of those 2 guys is a much bigger selling point to attract a bigname star that year, not to mention the added young talent you'd have on the roster after trading those 2 guys this season... y'all just cannot let go of that fallacy that we won't have anyone left to play w/if we let Nate & Lee go even tho it's been explained over & over again that it's not the case... if that's the only argument u have to fall back on u've already been proven wrong.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
JohnWallace44
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2/17/2009  6:04 PM
Posted by TheSage:

I believe that the Bird exception would be applicable to Nate and Lee if we were to sign a Lebron or a Wade and use up our cap space. I see bothing in the exceptions rules which would not allow us to sign our own players who have been with us for 4 years.

Nate and Lee would have a "cap hold" which would prevent us from signing two Max players unless we renounced their Bird Rights. If we renounced the rights, then signed LeBron and Bosh, we couldn't then sign Lee and or Nate. Once we renounce, they're treated like any other free agent.

This is all assuming that you could get them to play on 1 year deals in the first place, which they won't do for a non-winning team.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TheSage
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2/17/2009  6:25 PM
The "Cap Hold" would be at the maximum based upon the prior year salary.
TheSage
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2/17/2009  6:27 PM
The "Cap Hold" would be at the maximum based upon the prior year salary. So that if each were to be paid 5MM then they would count 10MM against the cap. I haven't studied it sufficiently but it might even be less based upon the avaerage salary for their year's of service.
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