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Dolan must go!!!
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DefAndReb
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10/29/2003  10:23 AM
If what Mitch Lawrence suggests truly comes to pass, I say we get out the torches, bricks and bats, and hunt some Dolan.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/131727p-117579c.html

Is this guy a malignant corporate scumwad or what?! I hope none of you spend your hard-earned money on these clowns unless they at least break even by end of November. I'm all for being a fan during the hard times, but that's only if management is making an honest effort to build a quality team. That is clearly not the case here. This is a scam. And it's been going on now for three seasons. Welcome to the fourth.

Some of you may remember that I hypothesized that Dolan is trying to lure more middle-aged white suburbanites to the games, knowing that he can't satisfy the real basketball fans in this town. Even though it's a bad business plan (people pay to see winners, not boy scouts) I still think this is what he's doing.

I want this jackass out of my city. At some point the fans need to fight back and tell him how much he sucks and how much he's ruined a promising team.

James Dolan needs to pack his bags.
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OasisBU
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10/29/2003  1:07 PM
Hypothesizing that Dolan is trying to lure middle aged white suburbanites seems a little bit racist to me....what would he have to gain by that anyway? It doesnt matter what color you are as long as your money is green and you are buying a ticket to MSG. So what would he have to gain from catering to only middle aged white suburbanites?

Are you saying someone who is middle aged and white, from the suburbs - doesnt know what a good basketball product is? Because last time I checked nobody liked watching a mediocre team, let alone pay to see them. Not even middle aged white people from the suburbs.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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10/29/2003  1:29 PM
What D&R is referring to is Dolan's apparent attempt to make the Knicks more "family friendly". Yes, that cross section of people does seem to be what he's shooting for. Most of the NYC based fans identified with Spree, his outlook, his game, style and his unwillingness to back down- even from team management. In fact, most of those who hated Spree and made it known in the Garden (by saying things that led me to believe that they were clearly racist themselves) were all too often white and from the suburbs. IMO Spree represented a rebel mentality that challenged authority (especially after PJ had to get choked up for comin' at Spree wrong). Dolan wants a Knicks crowd to look even more like a Rangers crowd even more than the outrageous ticket prices already do.

Dolan has a rude awakening comming for hiz azz if he thinks that will work. Even racists don't wanna pay obscene prices for a mediocre, losing team.

I am still tripping over how of all people, Bit-.. I mean Mitch Lawrence (who had nothing but hate for Spree) actually said something else I agree with.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
DefAndReb
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10/29/2003  2:46 PM
Thanks, Harcdcore, that's exactly what I'm saying. You are right on with your statement.

I live in Brooklyn, and have lived in NYC for sixteen years. Knick fans I meet, the ones who live in the city, love basketball, and loved Spree. I go to a suburb one weekend for a cookout with the wife's family. Spree had just been traded. Uncle Ed says, "At least they got rid of that Sprewell" and just shook his head. He went on to disparage any athlete with tattoos and cornrows. I've met more than a few people like this. They don't like the NBA because they think it presents a bad example for kids. They consider it a street sport, full of poor role models. I kind of hesitate to call it conscious racism, because if all the players had clean haircuts and no visible tats, it wouldn't matter to these people their skin color. But it is a cultural prejudice. Have tats? You must be a delinquent. Cornrows? That's low class. It's a conditioned reaction to a fear some people have.

Of course, not all white suburbanites are like that, and there are plenty of basketball fans that don't live in the city. But Dolan seems to want to fill the empty seats at the Garden by getting families to come. Taking your family to a Knicks game? That's expensive! Who has that kind of money? I know, wealthy suburbanites. Get the people in Long Island and Westchester to come to the game.

Is it bad plan on Dolan's part? Of course it is. He's been watching too many Kings games on TV. NYC is not Sacremento. We have other stuff to entertain us - the Knicks aren't the only thing to see in this town. NYC ball is not a family outing. If he wants to fill seats, I don't care if he's got five serial killers on the floor, as long as they win.

I don't accuse Dolan of being racist. I accuse him of being CLUELESS!!! He refuses to give the real fans what they want - a winner. Instead he gives us "nice guys", as if people are that stupid to pay these prices to watch players with "character". I don't want character, I want characters: Oakley, Starks, Clyde, Reed, Spree, LJ. And I want a team with at least one of the top 5 players in the league on it. We're NYC, dammit, where's our superstar? Allan is a girl, for crying out loud. BAAAHHHHHHH! I got to stop, my blood pressure's going through the roof.
OasisBU
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10/29/2003  3:12 PM
I hate to break it to you guys, but the Garden was full of people from westchester and long island long before Dolan came along, back when the knicks were WINNING. If he wants to create a family atmosphere thats one thing, but the two of you are passing judgement on people from Westchester and Long Island based on their incomes and skin color.

I said it before and I will say it again, Dolan doesnt care what your skin color is or where you come from as long as your money is green. They got rid of Spree because he wasnt a team player - not because he was some hardcore street thug, are you kidding me? At 13 mil plus a season? Spree hasnt seen the street since he was in high school in fact hardly any of these players have.

And yes, you are generalizing about all whites from the suburbs - I happen to be white and from there, and no I didnt agree with trading Spree. I also dont see basketball as a thug sport - and I know tons of people who feel the same. I'm sorry you guys met a few who think that way but if you want to hate on white people go right ahead. They arent the ones turning everything into a color issue.

There are more than enough reasons to want Dolan out without making up some BS about how he only wants white families watching his teams. And why would families who think the NBA is a thug sport go watch a hockey game and see them beat the $**t out of eachother? Isnt that considered thug behavior? If his plan is to appeal to these families, why are ticket sales for the Rangers and the Knicks so low now? I mean obviously White families will want to spend all the extra money they have laying around on watching 2 of the worst teams in sports....dont you agree? If you are white you have so much money to waste you just go spend it on crap...

[Edited by - oasisbu on 10/29/2003 15:21:54]
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
DefAndReb
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10/29/2003  4:05 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

I hate to break it to you guys, but the Garden was full of people from westchester and long island long before Dolan came along, back when the knicks were WINNING. If he wants to create a family atmosphere thats one thing, but the two of you are passing judgement on people from Westchester and Long Island based on their incomes and skin color.
No, we're not. You obviously didn't undertstand what we wrote.
I said it before and I will say it again, Dolan doesnt care what your skin color is or where you come from as long as your money is green. They got rid of Spree because he wasnt a team player - not because he was some hardcore street thug, are you kidding me? At 13 mil plus a season? Spree hasnt seen the street since he was in high school in fact hardly any of these players have.
Again, that's not what we said.
And yes, you are generalizing about all whites from the suburbs - I happen to be white and from there, and no I didnt agree with trading Spree. I also dont see basketball as a thug sport - and I know tons of people who feel the same. I'm sorry you guys met a few who think that way but if you want to hate on white people go right ahead. They arent the ones turning everything into a color issue.
You're being defensive, along with the fact that you didn't read what we wrote.
There are more than enough reasons to want Dolan out without making up some BS about how he only wants white families watching his teams. And why would families who think the NBA is a thug sport go watch a hockey game and see them beat the $**t out of eachother? Isnt that considered thug behavior? If his plan is to appeal to these families, why are ticket sales for the Rangers and the Knicks so low now? I mean obviously White families will want to spend all the extra money they have laying around on watching 2 of the worst teams in sports....dont you agree? If you are white you have so much money to waste you just go spend it on crap...

[Edited by - oasisbu on 10/29/2003 15:21:54]

We're not saying people from the suburbs are racist, we're not saying white people are all racist, we're not saying Dolan is racist. Dolan is trying to be like the Jazz, the Kings, the Spurs. See the fans at those games? Families. He's trying to sell a middle-America type product to New York because he thinks that will sell tickets. And he's wrong. But that's what he's doing.

You are completely misinterpreting the point of what we're saying. Look at the players let go. Look at the players picked up. Look at the amount of money paid to which guys. See the pattern. Look at the crowds at Jets games, at Yankee games. Dolan thinks he can draw families and the fans of those teams (most of whom come to the games from the suburbs, especially in the case of football) to NBA games. At MSG!!! Is he nuts? NBA in New York is for the same crowd that likes boxing. Urban, professional, corporate, buy seats in pairs. If subburbia was such a rich fanbase, why don't the same people who go to see the Jets go to see the Nets?

Would having a winning team bring in fans? Duh! Of course. The point is, Dolan doesn't understand why people go to sporting events. He doesn't get sports. He's not a sports fan, at least not an NBA fan. He's overseen the building of a bad team, and he's happy with it! He seems to think people will come over bridge and tunnel to see a clean team, even if they aren't that good. He seems to think people just go to games to have something to do. Nope, but that's what he's trying to create, a family-friendly product.

A side note:

I used to live right next to MSG. When a Rangers game lets out, it's like the South Shore of Long Island puked. Not all Rangers fans are meatheads, maybe not even most of them, but there are a lot. And they don't live in the city. The kinds of people I'm talking about have nothing but disdain for the city and its acceptance of all kinds of people. I don't see these same people getting into a sport where most of the players are either black or international. I'd like to think that most people are not like that. Most people are good people, but there enough of the bad ones to keep me looking over my shoulder when a Rangers game lets out.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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10/29/2003  4:14 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

I hate to break it to you guys, but the Garden was full of people from westchester and long island long before Dolan came along, back when the knicks were WINNING.

When was that ever dsisputed? The point was that Dolan's "family friendly" pitch caters more to those suburbanites than to the urban fans who are more Pro-Spree.
If he wants to create a family atmosphere thats one thing, but the two of you are passing judgement on people from Westchester and Long Island based on their incomes and skin color.
Now if you read what each of us wrote, you would see that there must be a possibility that we could be drawing these references from something other than having heard with our own ears that what we are complaining about.
I said it before and I will say it again, Dolan doesnt care what your skin color is or where you come from as long as your money is green. They got rid of Spree because he wasnt a team player - not because he was some hardcore street thug, are you kidding me? At 13 mil plus a season? Spree hasnt seen the street since he was in high school in fact hardly any of these players have.


Not a team player... when he has either come off the bench or played the 3 (NOT a natural position for him). Yeah, is that isn't a team player, then I don't want one.
...and who the hell said anything about a "thug"? Is that all you got from the whole thread? People associating that look or demeanor as that is part of the problem we were discussing in the first place.
And yes, you are generalizing about all whites from the suburbs - I happen to be white and from there, and no I didnt agree with trading Spree. I also dont see basketball as a thug sport - and I know tons of people who feel the same. I'm sorry you guys met a few who think that way but if you want to hate on white people go right ahead. They arent the ones turning everything into a color issue.

OK, firstly, D&R said : "Of course, not all white suburbanites are like that, and there are plenty of basketball fans that don't live in the city."

Now just how did u extract "And yes, you are generalizing about all whites from the suburbs" from the previous statement? We don't need to be astrophysicists to figure this stuff out.
If that doesn't apply to you, why are you so defensive? And who's turning something into a color issue? Remember sonny, how this country was founded... That last comment was an ill-advised one. Don't take it there.
There are more than enough reasons to want Dolan out without making up some BS about how he only wants white families watching his teams.

With that said, have you ever watched the commercials? watch (I mean really watch)MSG's programming and see for yourself. Analyze who they are advertising to. I bet you never even noticed.
And why would families who think the NBA is a thug sport go watch a hockey game and see them beat the $**t out of eachother? Isnt that considered thug behavior? If his plan is to appeal to these families, why are ticket sales for the Rangers and the Knicks so low now? I mean obviously White families will want to spend all the extra money they have laying around on watching 2 of the worst teams in sports....dont you agree? If you are white you have so much money to waste you just go spend it on crap...

You completely missed the point. We are not talking about violence or "thug" behavior. That part of the convo was about the possible target audience that Dolan is trying to attract. As for fans who waste their money, I am sure they all felt like they wasted their money last year. You went off on that tangent all on your own.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
OasisBU
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10/29/2003  5:04 PM
[quote]
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:


When was that ever dsisputed? The point was that Dolan's "family friendly" pitch caters more to those suburbanites than to the urban fans who are more Pro-Spree.

That is rediculous. It has nothing to do with being suburban, maybe it has to do with age and the fact that they arent in touch with what youth finds appealing but you are throwing them all into a single category because of what you perceive.

Now if you read what each of us wrote, you would see that there must be a possibility that we could be drawing these references from something other than having heard with our own ears that what we are complaining about.

Actually I did read both of your posts and I find them to be baseless.

from post 1:
Some of you may remember that I hypothesized that Dolan is trying to lure more middle-aged white suburbanites to the games, knowing that he can't satisfy the real basketball fans in this town.


from your first post:
What D&R is referring to is Dolan's apparent attempt to make the Knicks more "family friendly". Yes, that cross section of people does seem to be what he's shooting for. Most of the NYC based fans identified with Spree, his outlook, his game, style and his unwillingness to back down- even from team management. In fact, most of those who hated Spree and made it known in the Garden (by saying things that led me to believe that they were clearly racist themselves) were all too often white and from the suburbs.



Not a team player... when he has either come off the bench or played the 3 (NOT a natural position for him). Yeah, is that isn't a team player, then I don't want one.
...and who the hell said anything about a "thug"? Is that all you got from the whole thread? People associating that look or demeanor as that is part of the problem we were discussing in the first place.

He isnt a team player because he shows up late, he doesnt tell the team when he is injured, he does things his own way even if it hurts the team. While he is a rebel and he has an image to uphold, he also let it get in the way of what it means o be part of a TEAM. There is no I in team, and Spree was all about Spree.


OK, firstly, D&R said : "Of course, not all white suburbanites are like that, and there are plenty of basketball fans that don't live in the city."

Ok, so that one sentence makes everything he said in post #1, and what you said in your first post ok? I dont think so - you guys started off by generalizing about a specific group of people and then you try and say you arent.

Now just how did u extract "And yes, you are generalizing about all whites from the suburbs" from the previous statement?

See above.

We don't need to be astrophysicists to figure this stuff out.
If that doesn't apply to you, why are you so defensive? And who's turning something into a color issue? Remember sonny, how this country was founded... That last comment was an ill-advised one. Don't take it there.

I am not defensive, I am pointing out that the comments you guys made were generalizations that have nothing to do with why the Knicks currently suck. It isnt Dolans ideal to have a crowd of white people from the suburbs watching, yet you seem to think there is some huge conspiracy by Dolan and Layden to get that demographic to come to Knicks games. To me it seems like you are the one who is getting defensive here because someone actually doesnt agree with your view. I do remember how this country was founded, I also live in 2003 not 1776.

With that said, have you ever watched the commercials? watch (I mean really watch)MSG's programming and see for yourself. Analyze who they are advertising to. I bet you never even noticed.

Ok..I dont watch the commercials because I dont care what they are selling. Do you think I care that tampon commercials are in my face every 10 second when I am trying to watch TV? Does that mean that prime time television is only trying to get tampon wearers to watch their shows? I dont think so. Would you feel better about buying a Knicks ticket if the advertising was more "urban"? Last time I checked, the NBA seemed to market itself as pretty urban. However, you may be right that the Knicks dont push it as much as the NBA does, I will give you that - I still dont see where this whole middle aged white from the suburbs comes from. What about black families that live out there? Asian? Hispanic?


You completely missed the point. We are not talking about violence or "thug" behavior. That part of the convo was about the possible target audience that Dolan is trying to attract. As for fans who waste their money, I am sure they all felt like they wasted their money last year. You went off on that tangent all on your own.

I think it is you who missed my point. You both claim that by whitewashing this team and bringing in more friendly looking players that it will immediately appeal to the demographic you believe Dolan is appealing to. My point is, that demographic doesnt care about how "clean" a team looks, they just care about winning. You think Portland has a problem selling tickets when Rasheed and Stoudamire got busted for smoking weed or when Sheed threatened a ref? No, and I have been to Portland many times - that crowd is middle aged and white.


While I completely agree with you that Dolan has ruined this team, I have to disagree with you that he is taking aim at suburban whites. If that makes me sound defensive then so be it, I happen to be a suburban white and your comments to me are offensive so I am voicing my opinion against you. You can think whatever you want, but when you start bringing it to the forum you gotta expect someone will be offended by comments like that. And to be honest with you, if I thought Dolan was purposely making this team more user friendly and non urban in order to get more white people to come to the garden, then I wouldnt bother showing up to watch a basketball game - who wants to watch a game with a bunch of middle aged white stiffs from the burbs anyway?

[Edited by - oasisbu on 10/29/2003 17:09:14]
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
playa2
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10/29/2003  5:37 PM
Dolan cares about SURBURBAN folks more, they are the ones that can bring their families and spend madd jack on concessions. Urban folk still smuggling food in arena.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
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10/29/2003  8:46 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

[quote]
Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:


When was that ever dsisputed? The point was that Dolan's "family friendly" pitch caters more to those suburbanites than to the urban fans who are more Pro-Spree.

That is rediculous. It has nothing to do with being suburban, maybe it has to do with age and the fact that they arent in touch with what youth finds appealing but you are throwing them all into a single category because of what you perceive.

What is ridiculous is that you think it's about appeal to youth. Obviously you didn't understand what I said in plain english and made an assumption that I perceived something wrong. There are youngsters overrunning the Garden? I think not.

Now if you read what each of us wrote, you would see that there must be a possibility that we could be drawing these references from something other than having heard with our own ears that what we are complaining about.

Actually I did read both of your posts and I find them to be baseless.

from post 1:
Some of you may remember that I hypothesized that Dolan is trying to lure more middle-aged white suburbanites to the games, knowing that he can't satisfy the real basketball fans in this town.


from your first post:
What D&R is referring to is Dolan's apparent attempt to make the Knicks more "family friendly". Yes, that cross section of people does seem to be what he's shooting for. Most of the NYC based fans identified with Spree, his outlook, his game, style and his unwillingness to back down- even from team management. In fact, most of those who hated Spree and made it known in the Garden (by saying things that led me to believe that they were clearly racist themselves) were all too often white and from the suburbs.

DefandReb and I are on the same page regarding that. You really have to keep up with a topic and stop with the knee-jerk reactions.


Not a team player... when he has either come off the bench or played the 3 (NOT a natural position for him). Yeah, is that isn't a team player, then I don't want one.
...and who the hell said anything about a "thug"? Is that all you got from the whole thread? People associating that look or demeanor as that is part of the problem we were discussing in the first place.

He isnt a team player because he shows up late, he doesnt tell the team when he is injured, he does things his own way even if it hurts the team. While he is a rebel and he has an image to uphold, he also let it get in the way of what it means o be part of a TEAM. There is no I in team, and Spree was all about Spree.

Oh please... and I guess that he criticized teammates too. But not stuff like that gets glossed over when KVH says it. Had Spree said that, the media (especially that rag the NY Post) would have been all over him. If I ever heard regurgitated MSG sanitized rhetoric straight from Dolan in all his glory when he took that punk shot at Spree last week...


OK, firstly, D&R said : "Of course, not all white suburbanites are like that, and there are plenty of basketball fans that don't live in the city."

Ok, so that one sentence makes everything he said in post #1, and what you said in your first post ok? I dont think so - you guys started off by generalizing about a specific group of people and then you try and say you arent.

Check your own words- how did any generalization take place? If I said something then I have NO problem owning up to what I say. I don't back down and switch up for you or anyone else. Both he and I were making references to experiences. Nobody singled OasisBU out. Calm down and recollect.

Now just how did u extract "And yes, you are generalizing about all whites from the suburbs" from the previous statement?

See above.


We don't need to be astrophysicists to figure this stuff out.
If that doesn't apply to you, why are you so defensive? And who's turning something into a color issue? Remember sonny, how this country was founded... That last comment was an ill-advised one. Don't take it there.

I am not defensive, I am pointing out that the comments you guys made were generalizations that have nothing to do with why the Knicks currently suck.
When did anyone say that that's why the Knicks suck? LOL

It isnt Dolans ideal to have a crowd of white people from the suburbs watching, yet you seem to think there is some huge conspiracy by Dolan and Layden to get that demographic to come to Knicks games.

I believe the word used was hypothesis, NOT conspiracy.

To me it seems like you are the one who is getting defensive here because someone actually doesnt agree with your view.
I stated my opinion of the hypothesis and could really care less who disagrees with it. If someone makes a valid counterpoint, I can acknowledge that. In this case, however, your point is off so it doesn't look valid.

I do remember how this country was founded, I also live in 2003 not 1776.
So you should understand what we are talking about it instead of opposing it.


With that said, have you ever watched the commercials? watch (I mean really watch)MSG's programming and see for yourself. Analyze who they are advertising to. I bet you never even noticed.

Ok..I dont watch the commercials because I dont care what they are selling. Do you think I care that tampon commercials are in my face every 10 second when I am trying to watch TV? Does that mean that prime time television is only trying to get tampon wearers to watch their shows? I dont think so. Would you feel better about buying a Knicks ticket if the advertising was more "urban"? Last time I checked, the NBA seemed to market itself as pretty urban. However, you may be right that the Knicks dont push it as much as the NBA does, I will give you that - I still dont see where this whole middle aged white from the suburbs comes from. What about black families that live out there? Asian? Hispanic?
I am talking about how the marketing strategy could be geared towards a certain demographic. You refuse to even try to understand our point. You are talking about tampons.


You completely missed the point. We are not talking about violence or "thug" behavior. That part of the convo was about the possible target audience that Dolan is trying to attract. As for fans who waste their money, I am sure they all felt like they wasted their money last year. You went off on that tangent all on your own.

I think it is you who missed my point. You both claim that by whitewashing this team and bringing in more friendly looking players that it will immediately appeal to the demographic you believe Dolan is appealing to. My point is, that demographic doesnt care about how "clean" a team looks, they just care about winning.
I never disagreed with that. I acknowledged that in my first response.

You think Portland has a problem selling tickets when Rasheed and Stoudamire got busted for smoking weed or when Sheed threatened a ref? No, and I have been to Portland many times - that crowd is middle aged and white.

Portland had a winning record, too.


While I completely agree with you that Dolan has ruined this team, I have to disagree with you that he is taking aim at suburban whites.

You left out the word "could", as in that what he could be doing.

If that makes me sound defensive then so be it, I happen to be a suburban white and your comments to me are offensive so I am voicing my opinion against you.

Thanks for admitting to the defensive attitude though. Let's get it straight- NO ONE SAID "all" or "every last one of" regarding anything. You can oppose that till you are blue in the face, My Point Still Stands. "Against me"?? now that is you who are taking a confrontational stace. If oyu took the time to think instead of trying to get all caught up in being "against" somebody, then maybe you'd have a better understanding of what is being discussed.

You can think whatever you want, but when you start bringing it to the forum you gotta expect someone will be offended by comments like that.
Well maybe I was offended by some of the comments people made at MSG about Spree. Maybe DefandReb was offended by what he experienced living near the Garden. If a forum discussion about peoples' experiences offend you, get a grip and handle it. If you READ the thread then you would see that is the perspective we were coming from.

And to be honest with you, if I thought Dolan was purposely making this team more user friendly and non urban in order to get more white people to come to the garden, then I wouldnt bother showing up to watch a basketball game - who wants to watch a game with a bunch of middle aged white stiffs from the burbs anyway?

Well, we do that anyway and have been for quite some time, Right? Some of us notice things that others may be oblivious to. That seems to be the case here.
[Edited by - oasisbu on 10/29/2003 17:09:14]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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10/29/2003  8:50 PM
Posted by playa2:

Dolan cares about SURBURBAN folks more, they are the ones that can bring their families and spend madd jack on concessions. Urban folk still smuggling food in arena.

LOL Playa, as much as I want to disagree with ya, I gotta let that one slide. I know people from the city who bring stuff in the Garden- I used to do it all the time. A 6-pack of beer was the usual.

[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 10/29/2003 20:51:49]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
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