Posted by fishmike:

Posted by TMS:

what worries me is this guy:



how much pressure is he gonna put on Donnie to make moves to get this team into the playoffs if they're still in the race at the trade deadline? i'm inclined to believe Walsh is gonna stick to his plan no matter what but i hope he doesn't prove me wrong.

Nalod?

Posted by TMS:

is that even at a pisspoor record of 15W - 22L, they're still only 2.5 games out of the #8 seed... i don't want them making any stupid trades at the deadline to try & eek out a playoff berth... i think now is the time to jettison contracts & to use our trade chips to amass picks whereever we can.

the only thing that gives me hope is the fact that Donnie's been focused on 2010 since he got here... i just hope he doesn't veer from the plan for the sake of appeasing Dolan & the short sighted Knick fans that want playoffs at all costs.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by LivingLegend:

Posted by TMS:

is that even at a pisspoor record of 15W - 22L, they're still only 2.5 games out of the #8 seed... i don't want them making any stupid trades at the deadline to try & eek out a playoff berth... i think now is the time to jettison contracts & to use our trade chips to amass picks whereever we can.

the only thing that gives me hope is the fact that Donnie's been focused on 2010 since he got here... i just hope he doesn't veer from the plan for the sake of appeasing Dolan & the short sighted Knick fans that want playoffs at all costs.

I think the decision between tanking and trying to get to the playoffs is a bit more difficult than you indicate.

If the season ended today we are sitting in the #11 position with a very small % chance to jump up into the top 3. Sure it could happen (see the Bulls last year) but probably not. If we make the playoffs as a #8 seed we'd probably be looking at a pick in the #15 - #17 range. So we are potentially looking at a difference between the #11 position and say the #16 position (or 5 draft slots).

Making the playoffs could have some long term residual value. One it will give some of our young guys the playoff experience, 2 it could reinforce the notion that D'Antoni and Walsh have us heading in the right direction. 3 it could make us look a bit better to players considering NY as a destination in 2010. What if we got into the playoffs and stole a 1st round victory and squeezed 2 rounds out of it. That would be very good experience for this team and leave a great taste in everyones mouth over the summer.

Losing only begets more losing. There are no franchise type players sitting in this draft right now - as a matter of opinion it looks very weak right now.

I love the notion of the lottery balls falling our way but that is just like playing the pick-6 and thinking your going to hit it (that's why they call it the lottery).

I'd take the playoff experience and a #16 pick over throwing in the rest of the season and ending up with the #11 pick.

I think we'll probably end up with just as good a player at #16 as we might at #11.

Either way is fine with me - I just don't think the lotter is all we are making it out to be.

that is exactly the position i DON'T wanna be in... just bad enough not to make the playoffs but just good enough not to get a good pick... this is why i'm saying it makes sense for us to go all out on the tank this year & end up w/the best pick we can possibly get our hands on.

i don't buy that theory u presented that losing begets more losing & that no bigname stars would want to come here in 2 years if we don't make the playoffs this year... i keep going back to the Boston example because it shows u that even the worst team in the league can get 2 bigname stars to agree to go there via trade because they can see the big picture & allure of winning it all in 1 of the major markets in the NBA... i believe the same can happen for the Knicks in 2010, regardless if we're a winning franchise by then or not... having that cap space & getting the best pick we can get this year will have a much bigger impact on our ability to attract FA's in 2010 than eeking out a #8 seed this year & next IMHO.

I think the year we absolutely have to make the play offs is 2009.

And, given all the factors we are going to have to deal with in 2010 in terms of the roster being attractive to FAs or not, having room, etc., and given the current bust status of the Gallo pick, we need to stop winning games this year fast, and do the best job we can in terms of getting lotto balls. Whether this is a deep draft or not, this is basically the last chance we get to add cheap young talent to our roster.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by LivingLegend:

Posted by TMS:

is that even at a pisspoor record of 15W - 22L, they're still only 2.5 games out of the #8 seed... i don't want them making any stupid trades at the deadline to try & eek out a playoff berth... i think now is the time to jettison contracts & to use our trade chips to amass picks whereever we can.

the only thing that gives me hope is the fact that Donnie's been focused on 2010 since he got here... i just hope he doesn't veer from the plan for the sake of appeasing Dolan & the short sighted Knick fans that want playoffs at all costs.

I think the decision between tanking and trying to get to the playoffs is a bit more difficult than you indicate.

If the season ended today we are sitting in the #11 position with a very small % chance to jump up into the top 3. Sure it could happen (see the Bulls last year) but probably not. If we make the playoffs as a #8 seed we'd probably be looking at a pick in the #15 - #17 range. So we are potentially looking at a difference between the #11 position and say the #16 position (or 5 draft slots).

Making the playoffs could have some long term residual value. One it will give some of our young guys the playoff experience, 2 it could reinforce the notion that D'Antoni and Walsh have us heading in the right direction. 3 it could make us look a bit better to players considering NY as a destination in 2010. What if we got into the playoffs and stole a 1st round victory and squeezed 2 rounds out of it. That would be very good experience for this team and leave a great taste in everyones mouth over the summer.

Losing only begets more losing. There are no franchise type players sitting in this draft right now - as a matter of opinion it looks very weak right now.

I love the notion of the lottery balls falling our way but that is just like playing the pick-6 and thinking your going to hit it (that's why they call it the lottery).

I'd take the playoff experience and a #16 pick over throwing in the rest of the season and ending up with the #11 pick.

I think we'll probably end up with just as good a player at #16 as we might at #11.

Either way is fine with me - I just don't think the lotter is all we are making it out to be.

that is exactly the position i DON'T wanna be in... just bad enough not to make the playoffs but just good enough not to get a good pick... this is why i'm saying it makes sense for us to go all out on the tank this year & end up w/the best pick we can possibly get our hands on.

i don't buy that theory u presented that losing begets more losing & that no bigname stars would want to come here in 2 years if we don't make the playoffs this year... i keep going back to the Boston example because it shows u that even the worst team in the league can get 2 bigname stars to agree to go there via trade because they can see the big picture & allure of winning it all in 1 of the major markets in the NBA... i believe the same can happen for the Knicks in 2010, regardless if we're a winning franchise by then or not... having that cap space & getting the best pick we can get this year will have a much bigger impact on our ability to attract FA's in 2010 than eeking out a #8 seed this year & next IMHO.

I'm trying to be realistic.

I don't think an all out tank is with in reason. We already have a minimum 4-game lead on at least 7 other teams. We won't be able to tank enough to get high up the lottery ladder. If we tanked enough to get to the 5th lottery position the year would look like an absolute train wreck and people will be questioning D'Antoni's legitimacy along with Walsh's competence.

I think it does take years to learn how to win -- if you look at the Celtics last year --- down the stretch they were running out guys like Garnett, Allen, Pierce, PJ Brown, Posey and Sam Cassell. Yes Rhondo and Perkins contributed but the Celtics were veteran laden with significant playoff experience.

We can't take a big time star and 6 guys who've never been out of the lottery and expect a championship. We need to get these guys in the habit of winning and doing the things that it takes to win right now. We can't train Chandler, Lee, Robinson and Gallo how to lose this year and expect that to turn around with a snap of the fingers. That kind of losing culture and attitude is what's weighing this franchise down. Every day has to be spent trying to win the next game. Every day - every day.

I just don't think a top 7-8 pick is in the works for us and I don't think that pick would be more valuable then the playoffs and a #15 pick.

Now if we trade D-Lee and get back a youngster and a pick -- then maybe the tank goes into effect but the D-Lee question is a tough question yet to be answered.

Posted by LivingLegend:

Now if we trade D-Lee and get back a youngster and a pick -- then maybe the tank goes into effect but the D-Lee question is a tough question yet to be answered.

Posted by LivingLegend:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by LivingLegend:

Now if we trade D-Lee and get back a youngster and a pick -- then maybe the tank goes into effect but the D-Lee question is a tough question yet to be answered.

that's the entire premise of my argument... i really think that's the way we should go.

But if you trade Lee you want something of value back other then a pick. I don't think it's a guaranteed tank job because Walsh isn't going to trade him for "Johnny Cakes".

Lee is proving to be a perfect fit in this system. Now keep in mind I'm not a guy who is set against trading David but damn he is playing very well in the system and he is the type of guy who will continue to flourish with better players because he's a mover, a cutter, a rebounder, a passer and a finisher. I mean he is a difficult guy to replace at the offensive end (seemingly). I'm not necessarily talking points - I'm talking about outlets to get the break going, ball movement, offensive rebounds etc. The more he flourishes the harder it is to get equal value for him.

the thing of value is the draft pick & the added cap space by dumping 1 of our bad contracts... i'm not saying dump D Lee just to get rid of Curry's contract... i wanna get an extra 1st round pick too so i can pick up someone like Patterson, Budinger or Derozan along w/whoever we take w/our own lottery pick.

i hear u on the positives of D Lee's game... trust me, i love the guy & i love the fact that he's 1 of the few guys Knick fans can truly root for... i'm just trying to look at this entirely from a broadscope view & not just looking at the immediate ramifications of losing D Lee.