[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Times article on progress, regress of Knicks Players under Dantoni
Author Thread
markvmc
Posts: 22036
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/6/2008
Member: #1797

1/6/2009  11:15 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/sports/basketball/04dribble.html?_r=1

Based on PER. By that measure, Nate is the only improved player. Should go down well here.
AUTOADVERT
GallOfFame
Posts: 20554
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 11/6/2008
Member: #2320
USA
1/6/2009  11:30 AM
If you respect Hollinger's statistical breakdown sure. I didn't need PER to come to this conclusion. I already proved as much in the Simmons thread, our coach really doesn't improve a player's overall game.

This system is very good at being deceptive because of how fast paced and frantic the play is.
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
1/6/2009  11:32 AM
D'Antoni is the worst coach ever
I just hope that people will like me
K22
Posts: 25143
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/18/2006
Member: #1182
USA
1/6/2009  11:34 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

D'Antoni is the worst coach ever

Nah.. I think 's predescessor was a much more viable contender to that title.
-- the preceding post was brought to you by the letter K and the number 22.
Elite
Posts: 26372
Alba Posts: 23
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #510

1/6/2009  11:35 AM
this is not surprising however I still think D'Antoni is a very good coach

long live
Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
1/6/2009  11:48 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

D'Antoni is the worst coach ever

I agree. I think it's also time to fire Walsh.

What we really need to do is re-instate Isiah Thomas. He had a vision and it was just starting to come together. Get him back in power and let him work his magic with Marbury and Malik's expirings. Then in 2011 when we have the cap space we can sign two max FA allstars. I don't really need to say who they will be but I will. Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford will be back rockin' the Orange and Blue and we'll win it all in 2011/2012.

Sometimes you just need to rock the boat first (by signing Walsh and MikeD) to wake up those who had fallen asleep at the wheel. This was all a good wakeup call for Isiah and if we put that man back in power good things will come. I guarantee it!

http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
Marv
Posts: 35540
Alba Posts: 69
Joined: 9/2/2002
Member: #315
1/6/2009  11:54 AM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by Bippity10:

D'Antoni is the worst coach ever

I agree. I think it's also time to fire Walsh.

What we really need to do is re-instate Isiah Thomas. He had a vision and it was just starting to come together. Get him back in power and let him work his magic with Marbury and Malik's expirings. Then in 2011 when we have the cap space we can sign two max FA allstars. I don't really need to say who they will be but I will. Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford will be back rockin' the Orange and Blue and we'll win it all in 2011/2012.

Sometimes you just need to rock the boat first (by signing Walsh and MikeD) to wake up those who had fallen asleep at the wheel. This was all a good wakeup call for Isiah and if we put that man back in power good things will come. I guarantee it!

co-sign.
ramtour420
Posts: 26769
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 3/19/2007
Member: #1388
Russian Federation
1/6/2009  11:59 AM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by Bippity10:

D'Antoni is the worst coach ever

I agree. I think it's also time to fire Walsh.

What we really need to do is re-instate Isiah Thomas. He had a vision and it was just starting to come together. Get him back in power and let him work his magic with Marbury and Malik's expirings. Then in 2011 when we have the cap space we can sign two max FA allstars. I don't really need to say who they will be but I will. Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford will be back rockin' the Orange and Blue and we'll win it all in 2011/2012.

Sometimes you just need to rock the boat first (by signing Walsh and MikeD) to wake up those who had fallen asleep at the wheel. This was all a good wakeup call for Isiah and if we put that man back in power good things will come. I guarantee it!

co-sign.

finally , someone smart enough to see the big picture

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
BasketballJones
Posts: 31973
Alba Posts: 19
Joined: 7/16/2002
Member: #290
USA
1/6/2009  12:07 PM
Posted by Cosmic:

[quote]Posted by Bippity10:

D'Antoni is the worst coach ever

I agree. I think it's also time to fire Walsh.

What we really need to do is re-instate Isiah Thomas. He had a vision and it was just starting to come together. Get him back in power and let him work his magic with Marbury and Malik's expirings. Then in 2011 when we have the cap space we can sign two max FA allstars. I don't really need to say who they will be but I will. Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford will be back rockin' the Orange and Blue and we'll win it all in 2011/2012.

Sometimes you just need to rock the boat first (by signing Walsh and MikeD) to wake up those who had fallen asleep at the wheel. This was all a good wakeup call for Isiah and if we put that man back in power good things will come. I guarantee it!

Awesome!
https:// It's not so hard.
PresIke
Posts: 27671
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/26/2001
Member: #33
USA
1/6/2009  12:41 PM
I have several comments to make on this, and I'll try to be brief (yes, I know a challenge for moi).

This is an important article to raise either way, and I'm glad Beck pays attention to advanced stats because they are valuable, so this should probably not just be dismissed because many of us don't like the conclusion he may be getting at, or at least trying to cause discussion about Mike D's affect on the team, which has mostly been seen as positive.

However, while quantitative statistics are very important, over reliance upon them for measuring "success" or "failure" in many areas of not just the NBA, can be flawed. For example say things like student or school "performance", when well regarded theories like Gardner's one on Multiple Intelligences would indicate that some "smart" students might do poorly on standardized tests (just as a starter for critiquing standardized testing). When it comes to things that require more qualitative examination or research, it can better inform the value of quantitative stats.

In fact, for social science nearly all of the quant stats come from qualitative work, first. Human behavior is just not the same as gravity on Earth, so applying quant measurements too strongly to things that are hard to measure can lead to dangerous conclusions, like say The Bell Curve.

Linking to this is another key side of the story in that quantitative stats can be critiqued as being misleading given other factors either not being considered or discussed (in academically peer review literature this would usually be in the "discussion" section).

So, in this case an easy way to start is to first to consider the fact that the team has a brand new coach, system, and PG running it.

After starting off strong early every starter and top scorer from last year was either traded, banished or on IR after D'Antoni had to introduce new concepts and confidence to a team that has been a league joke for years, still having some players lingering and possibly causing distractions.

I can go on, but that could be playing into the current PER stats. Harrington has only been with the team for what, a month or so? Perhaps we need a larger sample size with the current roster, which may never come this year or next as this is a team in transition, to come to stronger conclusions. Which, to me, might imply that observation or other qualitative work may be as important or perhaps more so, and why some of us are arguing that this seems silly.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
1/6/2009  1:01 PM
Posted by PresIke:

I have several comments to make on this, and I'll try to be brief (yes, I know a challenge for moi).

This is an important article to raise either way, and I'm glad Beck pays attention to advanced stats because they are valuable, so this should probably not just be dismissed because many of us don't like the conclusion he may be getting at, or at least trying to cause discussion about Mike D's affect on the team, which has mostly been seen as positive.

However, while quantitative statistics are very important, over reliance upon them for measuring "success" or "failure" in many areas of not just the NBA, can be flawed. For example say things like student or school "performance", when well regarded theories like Gardner's one on Multiple Intelligences would indicate that some "smart" students might do poorly on standardized tests (just as a starter for critiquing standardized testing). When it comes to things that require more qualitative examination or research, it can better inform the value of quantitative stats.

In fact, for social science nearly all of the quant stats come from qualitative work, first. Human behavior is just not the same as gravity on Earth, so applying quant measurements too strongly to things that are hard to measure can lead to dangerous conclusions, like say The Bell Curve.

Linking to this is another key side of the story in that quantitative stats can be critiqued as being misleading given other factors either not being considered or discussed (in academically peer review literature this would usually be in the "discussion" section).

So, in this case an easy way to start is to first to consider the fact that the team has a brand new coach, system, and PG running it.

After starting off strong early every starter and top scorer from last year was either traded, banished or on IR after D'Antoni had to introduce new concepts and confidence to a team that has been a league joke for years, still having some players lingering and possibly causing distractions.

I can go on, but that could be playing into the current PER stats. Harrington has only been with the team for what, a month or so? Perhaps we need a larger sample size with the current roster, which may never come this year or next as this is a team in transition, to come to stronger conclusions. Which, to me, might imply that observation or other qualitative work may be as important or perhaps more so, and why some of us are arguing that this seems silly.

I could care less if the players stats improve. I care if their wins improve.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
Posts: 13999
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2004
Member: #574
1/6/2009  1:01 PM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by Bippity10:

D'Antoni is the worst coach ever

I agree. I think it's also time to fire Walsh.

What we really need to do is re-instate Isiah Thomas. He had a vision and it was just starting to come together. Get him back in power and let him work his magic with Marbury and Malik's expirings. Then in 2011 when we have the cap space we can sign two max FA allstars. I don't really need to say who they will be but I will. Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford will be back rockin' the Orange and Blue and we'll win it all in 2011/2012.

Sometimes you just need to rock the boat first (by signing Walsh and MikeD) to wake up those who had fallen asleep at the wheel. This was all a good wakeup call for Isiah and if we put that man back in power good things will come. I guarantee it!

Preach on brother Cosmic
I just hope that people will like me
TheGame
Posts: 26651
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/15/2006
Member: #1154
USA
1/6/2009  1:13 PM
I am very curious to see what MDA can do with Curry. I have no delusions that Curry can be a franchise center, but I wonder can MDA make him look as good as he did two years ago when there was some all-star talk. If we could boost Curry's trade value and get a 1st round pick for him, then MDA would have done his job.
Trust the Process
Marv
Posts: 35540
Alba Posts: 69
Joined: 9/2/2002
Member: #315
1/6/2009  1:17 PM
Posted by TheGame:

I am very curious to see what MDA can do with Curry. I have no delusions that Curry can be a franchise center, but I wonder can MDA make him look as good as he did two years ago when there was some all-star talk. If we could boost Curry's trade value and get a 1st round pick for him, then MDA would have done his job.

i'm curious too but i wonder if curry might have already shot his physical capacity to play in the nba.
Uptown
Posts: 31370
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 4/1/2008
Member: #1883

1/6/2009  1:22 PM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by Bippity10:

D'Antoni is the worst coach ever

I agree. I think it's also time to fire Walsh.

What we really need to do is re-instate Isiah Thomas. He had a vision and it was just starting to come together. Get him back in power and let him work his magic with Marbury and Malik's expirings. Then in 2011 when we have the cap space we can sign two max FA allstars. I don't really need to say who they will be but I will. Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford will be back rockin' the Orange and Blue and we'll win it all in 2011/2012.

Sometimes you just need to rock the boat first (by signing Walsh and MikeD) to wake up those who had fallen asleep at the wheel. This was all a good wakeup call for Isiah and if we put that man back in power good things will come. I guarantee it!

Post of the year!!!!!

I've been saying since 2005 that D'Antoni stole LB's coach of the year award. Thoses 62 and 61 win seasons had nothing to do with him. Everyone knows the aquisition of the great Boris Diaw was the final piece to elevate that team to elite status. And the 54 and 55 win seasons were flukes.

SupremeCommander
Posts: 34071
Alba Posts: 35
Joined: 4/28/2006
Member: #1127

1/6/2009  1:28 PM
makes sense that their PER is down... these "players" Isiah collected are actually asked to play with some IQ and be efficient
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
markvmc
Posts: 22036
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/6/2008
Member: #1797

1/6/2009  1:29 PM
Agree that the sample size is small. Agree also that quantitative data shouldn't simply replace observation. But the problem with observation is that it is susceptible to observer bias: a spectacularly good or bad individual performance for a game or two can lead to a hasty judgement about how well/poorly a player is doing; we all have our favorites/whipping boys too. Quantitative analysis can act as a check on observer bias.
For example, a number of people (myself included) have been impressed with Chandler's recent performances, seeing it as evidence of improvement from last season. A number of people have been talking about Nate regressing from last season. If PER is any indication (and if the sample is large enough), then both of these observations are at least suspect: Chandler is playing at the same (good) level as last year, and Nate is doing better.

Then of course the question is how you reconcile your initial impressions with the statistical measures...

arkrud
Posts: 32217
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
1/6/2009  1:31 PM
Posted by markvmc:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/sports/basketball/04dribble.html?_r=1

Based on PER. By that measure, Nate is the only improved player. Should go down well here.

The numbers shown and conclusions on them based on assumption that increasing playing time should have no effect on P.E.R as it is simple math.
I think this is fundamentally wrong.
Good players (and to be good all our starters had to improve from last year as they suck big time) will maintain P.E.R with increase of the minutes but most of the players will have P.E.R decreased due to fatigue and playing against best opposition. All our current starters were backups in the past and played against backups and junk.





[Edited by - arkrud on 01-06-2009 1:32 PM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 01-06-2009 1:32 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
markvmc
Posts: 22036
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/6/2008
Member: #1797

1/6/2009  1:33 PM
Good point. And one reason why I prefer adjusted +/- as a statistical measure of performance. But there's no article in today's times about that stat.
SupremeCommander
Posts: 34071
Alba Posts: 35
Joined: 4/28/2006
Member: #1127

1/6/2009  1:35 PM
Posted by markvmc:

Good point. And one reason why I prefer adjusted +/- as a statistical measure of performance. But there's no article in today's times about that stat.

Agreed. great point akrud
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
Times article on progress, regress of Knicks Players under Dantoni

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy