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how' is d'antoni's player development?
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djsunyc
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12/28/2008  10:48 PM
haven't watched too many games but for those who have, do you think d'antoni is making players on this team better? his rep was putting players in position where they can be useful but he didn't earn high marks in terms of player development.

how do you think he's developing the players on this team? are players doing things better or are they just focusing more on doing what they do well? it's early in the season but have you seen players grow yet?
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CrushAlot
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12/28/2008  10:55 PM
I think the biggest change for the guys who were here last year is that the dysfunction is gone and there is a system in place for them to follow.
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nyk4ever
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12/28/2008  10:57 PM
It's tough to say DJ. Most of the guys on this team are guys who have been around the league for a long time and don't really change.

The one guy that really jumps out in terms of player-development is obviously Duhon. Dudu looks good in every facet - leadership, shooting, passing, defense. I think he has turned himself into a starting PG for another team if the knicks were to suddenly just cut him.

I think Nate has evolved somewhat. Danilo is the guy you want to look at when he returns and see what kind of player-development that MikeD has. Chandler seems to have a better shot this year, but that's not really saying much since he's not shooting all that great, but it does seem better.
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TMS
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12/28/2008  11:02 PM
they looked good in the first several weeks & then after the trade, but ever since that Lakers game it seems they've regressed back to 1 on 1 play & guys aren't playing w/the same energy as they were before.

i dunno if MDA is making guys better or not, but the team play has been better than i've seen in a long time right up til the Lakers game... Duhon was orchestrating the offense, D Lee was thriving in the pick & roll game, Al Harrington was showing his versatility on offense, Nate was providing a great spark off the bench... things looked real good for a while considering what we have on this roster talent wise... they seemed to have formed a real team cohesion & guys knew what their roles were & where they were supposed to be on the floor... the past few games they look completely disjointed & lazy & guys are forcing up bad shots w/no flow or pace at all in the offense.

in terms of player development:

Nate looked like he had really progressed earlier in the season but the past few games he's gone back to last year's style of play as has the rest of this team.

dunno how much Wilson Chandler's developed this season, but his jumpshot does look better than it did last year... he's still very prone to defensive lapses a lot tho i've noticed, & still seems tentative to look for his offense sometimes.

D Lee hasn't really developed much, he still does well what he's always done well... his midrange jumpshot is still not consistent enough to say he's improved much & his defense is still non-existent.

& Duhon has impressed me for the most part both for his toughness & willingness to lay his body on the line for the sake of the team... i think he & D Lee had formed a real nice chemistry after the Zach trade but of late he's not being as aggressive looking for his shot as he was earlier in the season.

the rest of these guys are vets so i wouldn't expect much development out of them regardless if MDA was coaching or someone else.
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King1
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12/29/2008  12:16 AM
Lets talk defense today. Lee guarded Nene and outplayed the wholde day. Smith, Melo, Billups and Jones did whatever they wanted and pour guards dont block out and they run in for tip dunks. Our bigs played better than their bigs did Lee cant block shots, that is a fact but our guards cant stop anyone.
4949
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12/29/2008  12:25 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

haven't watched too many games but for those who have, do you think d'antoni is making players on this team better? his rep was putting players in position where they can be useful but he didn't earn high marks in terms of player development.

how do you think he's developing the players on this team? are players doing things better or are they just focusing more on doing what they do well? it's early in the season but have you seen players grow yet?

I remember people saying that he wasn't a developing kind of guy, but was more skilled at upping the offense as a team. And that's about it. The only thing is, we're missing a star to capitalize on that system. Not to mention, minimal defense at the least.

But let's also remember that this core, especially Nate, Chandler and Lee were born into this bad system, so a little word called 'belief' is important. How much do these guys and the others believe in themselves to be a better team? I say it's depletion and injury hurting us this time, but psychologically I wonder if we are still hurting. Some times half the Knicks just don't seem to be mentally tough enough. Do any of you's notice that? Isiah is like the Bernie of the NBA. He's ruined so many lives.
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Bippity10
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12/29/2008  5:50 AM
I personally don't think you judge a coach's ability to develop players 28 games into his tenure. I know on this site we tend to think coaches are magical but..............

A coach can only do so much
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Bippity10
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12/29/2008  9:42 AM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by djsunyc:

haven't watched too many games but for those who have, do you think d'antoni is making players on this team better? his rep was putting players in position where they can be useful but he didn't earn high marks in terms of player development.

how do you think he's developing the players on this team? are players doing things better or are they just focusing more on doing what they do well? it's early in the season but have you seen players grow yet?

I remember people saying that he wasn't a developing kind of guy, but was more skilled at upping the offense as a team. And that's about it. The only thing is, we're missing a star to capitalize on that system. Not to mention, minimal defense at the least.

But let's also remember that this core, especially Nate, Chandler and Lee were born into this bad system, so a little word called 'belief' is important. How much do these guys and the others believe in themselves to be a better team? I say it's depletion and injury hurting us this time, but psychologically I wonder if we are still hurting. Some times half the Knicks just don't seem to be mentally tough enough. Do any of you's notice that? Isiah is like the Bernie of the NBA. He's ruined so many lives.

I think seasons of losing, drama and permission to quit has worn on some of the guys and makes it a difficult hill to climb for any coach/GM
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NYKBocker
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12/29/2008  9:53 AM
Posted by TMS:

they looked good in the first several weeks & then after the trade, but ever since that Lakers game it seems they've regressed back to 1 on 1 play & guys aren't playing w/the same energy as they were before.

i dunno if MDA is making guys better or not, but the team play has been better than i've seen in a long time right up til the Lakers game... Duhon was orchestrating the offense, D Lee was thriving in the pick & roll game, Al Harrington was showing his versatility on offense, Nate was providing a great spark off the bench... things looked real good for a while considering what we have on this roster talent wise... they seemed to have formed a real team cohesion & guys knew what their roles were & where they were supposed to be on the floor... the past few games they look completely disjointed & lazy & guys are forcing up bad shots w/no flow or pace at all in the offense.

in terms of player development:

Nate looked like he had really progressed earlier in the season but the past few games he's gone back to last year's style of play as has the rest of this team.

dunno how much Wilson Chandler's developed this season, but his jumpshot does look better than it did last year... he's still very prone to defensive lapses a lot tho i've noticed, & still seems tentative to look for his offense sometimes.

D Lee hasn't really developed much, he still does well what he's always done well... his midrange jumpshot is still not consistent enough to say he's improved much & his defense is still non-existent.

& Duhon has impressed me for the most part both for his toughness & willingness to lay his body on the line for the sake of the team... i think he & D Lee had formed a real nice chemistry after the Zach trade but of late he's not being as aggressive looking for his shot as he was earlier in the season.

the rest of these guys are vets so i wouldn't expect much development out of them regardless if MDA was coaching or someone else.

I agree about everything here except for DLee. I think he improved a lot in that his post defense is better in the entry part. When the post player gets the ball in the post he is average as he cannot block any shots as his arms are not that long. His perimeter defense is still terrible but he is playing the 5 so this is a non-issue right now. He has also developed his mid-range jumpshot with some consistency. When he shoots the mid-range shot without hesitation he usually makes it, at least that is how I see it.

arkrud
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12/29/2008  10:04 AM
We all know that there are no premier level NBA players on this team. I am not talking about stars but just solid players.
We have some prospects in Chan, galo, lee, nate and thats about it. They still can be great or very good players at 50/50 probability.
All the rest... garbage and some average guys like Duhon and Al. they are OK but nothing special.
Even in Mikes 8 players rotation we need 5-6 more solid players to add. He can develop 2-3 guys from our current roster but this will not do much overall.
We need much more raw material or just get ready-made products. So the future of this team is more in GM hands that anything.



[Edited by - arkrud on 12-29-2008 10:06 AM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 12-29-2008 10:06 AM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 12-29-2008 10:36 AM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
BasketballJones
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12/29/2008  10:49 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

I personally don't think you judge a coach's ability to develop players 28 games into his tenure. I know on this site we tend to think coaches are magical but..............

A coach can only do so much

Agreed. I believe the correct number of games that must elapse before we can begin judging the coach is 29.
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Bippity10
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12/29/2008  10:58 AM
Listen, you need someone to build around. You can't just slap talent(mediocre talent if you are talking about the Knicks) and expect it to mesh into a contender. You need to find a legitimate talent(whether that's done through draft, trade or free agency is irrelevant) and then build a team around that person or persons that compliments their skills. In the meantime all the rest is just a pipedream. This is why we need to clear cap space and target draft picks.

I do think that if the psychological side of things doesn't zap us again, that we will get better as the season goes on. We as fans should not be excited/depressed by the amount of wins, but by the season long development of a few players that we may be able to use to build around any future stars we bring in. Who knows, maybe Gallo or Chandler develops into one of those key cogs. I'm excited about those two. As for the rest of them, they are what they are. Players that are being evaluated and not a definite piece of a future core. Remember we won 23, 33 and 23 games the past 3 years. We brought in a new coach, a new system, 1 guy that can't hit a shot, a rookie that's injured, 2 guys not intended to be here in 2 years, and a PG that is still young and developing but is also possibly not here in 2 years. As for those that remain from a 23 win team, we have one in exile, one fat, hurt and lazy and many others who helped to contribute to the fiasco of the last three years. My question is, what did you expect???????

Some of us killed Isiah for bringing in this crappy roster. Killed him for 3 years. Then he is fired and we can't beleive that the new guy can't win with the same roster that we killed Isiah for? I don't get it.
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Bippity10
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12/29/2008  10:58 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by Bippity10:

I personally don't think you judge a coach's ability to develop players 28 games into his tenure. I know on this site we tend to think coaches are magical but..............

A coach can only do so much

Agreed. I believe the correct number of games that must elapse before we can begin judging the coach is 29.

Finally a voice of reason
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islesfan
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12/29/2008  11:40 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

Listen, you need someone to build around. You can't just slap talent(mediocre talent if you are talking about the Knicks) and expect it to mesh into a contender. You need to find a legitimate talent(whether that's done through draft, trade or free agency is irrelevant) and then build a team around that person or persons that compliments their skills. In the meantime all the rest is just a pipedream. This is why we need to clear cap space and target draft picks.

I do think that if the psychological side of things doesn't zap us again, that we will get better as the season goes on. We as fans should not be excited/depressed by the amount of wins, but by the season long development of a few players that we may be able to use to build around any future stars we bring in. Who knows, maybe Gallo or Chandler develops into one of those key cogs. I'm excited about those two. As for the rest of them, they are what they are. Players that are being evaluated and not a definite piece of a future core. Remember we won 23, 33 and 23 games the past 3 years. We brought in a new coach, a new system, 1 guy that can't hit a shot, a rookie that's injured, 2 guys not intended to be here in 2 years, and a PG that is still young and developing but is also possibly not here in 2 years. As for those that remain from a 23 win team, we have one in exile, one fat, hurt and lazy and many others who helped to contribute to the fiasco of the last three years. My question is, what did you expect???????

Some of us killed Isiah for bringing in this crappy roster. Killed him for 3 years. Then he is fired and we can't beleive that the new guy can't win with the same roster that we killed Isiah for? I don't get it.

Who's killing D'Antoni for not winning? I haven't seen that at all. I, for one, am killing him for not doing the only thing he should be doing over the next 2 seasons, which is teaching fundamentals and coaching defense and his system. Over a quarter of the season has passed and there's no evidence of any of that. That's inexcusable.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Bippity10
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12/29/2008  11:51 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Listen, you need someone to build around. You can't just slap talent(mediocre talent if you are talking about the Knicks) and expect it to mesh into a contender. You need to find a legitimate talent(whether that's done through draft, trade or free agency is irrelevant) and then build a team around that person or persons that compliments their skills. In the meantime all the rest is just a pipedream. This is why we need to clear cap space and target draft picks.

I do think that if the psychological side of things doesn't zap us again, that we will get better as the season goes on. We as fans should not be excited/depressed by the amount of wins, but by the season long development of a few players that we may be able to use to build around any future stars we bring in. Who knows, maybe Gallo or Chandler develops into one of those key cogs. I'm excited about those two. As for the rest of them, they are what they are. Players that are being evaluated and not a definite piece of a future core. Remember we won 23, 33 and 23 games the past 3 years. We brought in a new coach, a new system, 1 guy that can't hit a shot, a rookie that's injured, 2 guys not intended to be here in 2 years, and a PG that is still young and developing but is also possibly not here in 2 years. As for those that remain from a 23 win team, we have one in exile, one fat, hurt and lazy and many others who helped to contribute to the fiasco of the last three years. My question is, what did you expect???????

Some of us killed Isiah for bringing in this crappy roster. Killed him for 3 years. Then he is fired and we can't beleive that the new guy can't win with the same roster that we killed Isiah for? I don't get it.

Who's killing D'Antoni for not winning? I haven't seen that at all. I, for one, am killing him for not doing the only thing he should be doing over the next 2 seasons, which is teaching fundamentals and coaching defense and his system. Over a quarter of the season has passed and there's no evidence of any of that. That's inexcusable.

Listen you narcissist. I never mentioned you. But yes, without a doubt the gloves are coming off and there are fans going after the guy for every reason under the sun. You can see it on this site, you can see it in response to blogs. It's there, and with each loss the caucaphony of lunacy will get louder.

As for the defense, yes we know you are in I told you so mode. I've been in that mode so I do not poo poo I told you so's. But this is definitely a chicken before the egg situation. Before the season started you said that D'Antoni would not teach this team defense. You were right, they have not learned defense. Before the season I said that no matter who was brought in to coach this team would never learn defense. So far I am right as well. This is the NBA, not college. Until you bring in leadership on the court, that plays both ends you are never going to see a Nate, David etc transformation. Why keep looking for it? This is why GM's clean out 23 win teams because they know that there are no magical coaches.
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Bippity10
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12/29/2008  11:52 AM
As we watch the Knicks play we see that the team lacks fundamentals on offense and defense. Does this mean that D'Antoni is not teaching them anything on either side of the ball? Or is it possible that it's the players and the bad habits of the past that Bip warned us back during the "okay to quit" season that he said the players would not get rid of?

Once you give a team permission to quit, it will haunt you for a long time. We did that, and it's haunting us today.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 29-12-2008 11:54 AM]
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BasketballJones
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12/29/2008  12:00 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

As we watch the Knicks play we see that the team lacks fundamentals on offense and defense. Does this mean that D'Antoni is not teaching them anything on either side of the ball? Or is it possible that it's the players and the bad habits of the past that Bip warned us back during the "okay to quit" season that he said the players would not get rid of?

Once you give a team permission to quit, it will haunt you for a long time. We did that, and it's haunting us today.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 29-12-2008 11:54 AM]

Stop harshing my mellow dude.
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CrushAlot
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12/29/2008  12:03 PM
I think an argument against the D'Antoni hire was that he was not authoritarian enough for the knuckleheads he would be coaching, he wouldn't coach defense and he would have short practices. I am not sure what he is working on in practice or how long they are. With the roster situation he may need to have light practices until he can lengthen his player rotation. I do think this group of players need to be coached on how to play on both ends of the floor.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
islesfan
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12/29/2008  12:04 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Listen, you need someone to build around. You can't just slap talent(mediocre talent if you are talking about the Knicks) and expect it to mesh into a contender. You need to find a legitimate talent(whether that's done through draft, trade or free agency is irrelevant) and then build a team around that person or persons that compliments their skills. In the meantime all the rest is just a pipedream. This is why we need to clear cap space and target draft picks.

I do think that if the psychological side of things doesn't zap us again, that we will get better as the season goes on. We as fans should not be excited/depressed by the amount of wins, but by the season long development of a few players that we may be able to use to build around any future stars we bring in. Who knows, maybe Gallo or Chandler develops into one of those key cogs. I'm excited about those two. As for the rest of them, they are what they are. Players that are being evaluated and not a definite piece of a future core. Remember we won 23, 33 and 23 games the past 3 years. We brought in a new coach, a new system, 1 guy that can't hit a shot, a rookie that's injured, 2 guys not intended to be here in 2 years, and a PG that is still young and developing but is also possibly not here in 2 years. As for those that remain from a 23 win team, we have one in exile, one fat, hurt and lazy and many others who helped to contribute to the fiasco of the last three years. My question is, what did you expect???????

Some of us killed Isiah for bringing in this crappy roster. Killed him for 3 years. Then he is fired and we can't beleive that the new guy can't win with the same roster that we killed Isiah for? I don't get it.

Who's killing D'Antoni for not winning? I haven't seen that at all. I, for one, am killing him for not doing the only thing he should be doing over the next 2 seasons, which is teaching fundamentals and coaching defense and his system. Over a quarter of the season has passed and there's no evidence of any of that. That's inexcusable.

Listen you narcissist. I never mentioned you. But yes, without a doubt the gloves are coming off and there are fans going after the guy for every reason under the sun. You can see it on this site, you can see it in response to blogs. It's there, and with each loss the caucaphony of lunacy will get louder.

As for the defense, yes we know you are in I told you so mode. I've been in that mode so I do not poo poo I told you so's. But this is definitely a chicken before the egg situation. Before the season started you said that D'Antoni would not teach this team defense. You were right, they have not learned defense. Before the season I said that no matter who was brought in to coach this team would never learn defense. So far I am right as well. This is the NBA, not college. Until you bring in leadership on the court, that plays both ends you are never going to see a Nate, David etc transformation. Why keep looking for it? This is why GM's clean out 23 win teams because they know that there are no magical coaches.

Islesfan is not a narcissist.

If you're saying that I'm the Chicken and you're the Egg and the Situation is getting to 10,000 posts first, then yes you are correct, the Chicken comes before the Egg.

If you can't expect the coach to be able to teach and coach the players until 2010, when they acquire some good players, then what was the hurry in hiring D'Antoni?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
BasketballJones
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12/29/2008  12:13 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Listen, you need someone to build around. You can't just slap talent(mediocre talent if you are talking about the Knicks) and expect it to mesh into a contender. You need to find a legitimate talent(whether that's done through draft, trade or free agency is irrelevant) and then build a team around that person or persons that compliments their skills. In the meantime all the rest is just a pipedream. This is why we need to clear cap space and target draft picks.

I do think that if the psychological side of things doesn't zap us again, that we will get better as the season goes on. We as fans should not be excited/depressed by the amount of wins, but by the season long development of a few players that we may be able to use to build around any future stars we bring in. Who knows, maybe Gallo or Chandler develops into one of those key cogs. I'm excited about those two. As for the rest of them, they are what they are. Players that are being evaluated and not a definite piece of a future core. Remember we won 23, 33 and 23 games the past 3 years. We brought in a new coach, a new system, 1 guy that can't hit a shot, a rookie that's injured, 2 guys not intended to be here in 2 years, and a PG that is still young and developing but is also possibly not here in 2 years. As for those that remain from a 23 win team, we have one in exile, one fat, hurt and lazy and many others who helped to contribute to the fiasco of the last three years. My question is, what did you expect???????

Some of us killed Isiah for bringing in this crappy roster. Killed him for 3 years. Then he is fired and we can't beleive that the new guy can't win with the same roster that we killed Isiah for? I don't get it.

Who's killing D'Antoni for not winning? I haven't seen that at all. I, for one, am killing him for not doing the only thing he should be doing over the next 2 seasons, which is teaching fundamentals and coaching defense and his system. Over a quarter of the season has passed and there's no evidence of any of that. That's inexcusable.

Listen you narcissist. I never mentioned you. But yes, without a doubt the gloves are coming off and there are fans going after the guy for every reason under the sun. You can see it on this site, you can see it in response to blogs. It's there, and with each loss the caucaphony of lunacy will get louder.

As for the defense, yes we know you are in I told you so mode. I've been in that mode so I do not poo poo I told you so's. But this is definitely a chicken before the egg situation. Before the season started you said that D'Antoni would not teach this team defense. You were right, they have not learned defense. Before the season I said that no matter who was brought in to coach this team would never learn defense. So far I am right as well. This is the NBA, not college. Until you bring in leadership on the court, that plays both ends you are never going to see a Nate, David etc transformation. Why keep looking for it? This is why GM's clean out 23 win teams because they know that there are no magical coaches.

Islesfan is not a narcissist.

If you're saying that I'm the Chicken and you're the Egg and the Situation is getting to 10,000 posts first, then yes you are correct, the Chicken comes before the Egg.

If you can't expect the coach to be able to teach and coach the players until 2010, when they acquire some good players, then what was the hurry in hiring D'Antoni?

I commend you for extracting some meaning from that gibberish.
https:// It's not so hard.
how' is d'antoni's player development?

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