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What if we flip the LeBron script?
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JohnWallace44
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12/27/2008  11:34 PM
Even if everything goes as planned, even if we clear Curry or Jeffries from the roster and have tons of room coming into 2010, I'm still not completely pumped about having a Lebron, Bosh, Gallo, Chandler and scraps team.

What if... what if we go extremely bold in an Isiah with brains type way?

Hear me out...

You've got the league thinking that we're all in for Lebron and nothing else.

The whole league is trying to set themselves up for 2010. The economy is going to make teams want to cut payroll anyway.

We've got tons of expiring deals in the next two years.

Couldn't we... I mean, couldn't we really fleece teams for other star players and tell Lebron to go screw?

At the deadline we could trade Rose and Marbs for real good players AND picks given the environment we're in now and how desperate teams are to clear payroll.

The next year we could flip Q, Al, and Timmay in the same manner.

Tell me we couldn't build an even better team doing that.

What kind of players could we pull for those guys? Teams that have stars on long term deals but they aren't winning.

Baron
Rip
Butler
Deng
Granger
G Wallace

I'm on board with what we're doing, but I'd stand up and cheer if we stopped slurping BronBron and made a bold move in the other direction.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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GKFv2
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12/27/2008  11:38 PM
Any guy we sign/trade for in 2010 will be better than Randolph and Crawford.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
JohnWallace44
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12/27/2008  11:46 PM
Craw was never a winning player. He's just too soft on the defensive end and doesn't want to drive it on an every game basis even though he could.

I'm just saying, LeBron reminds me of one of those chicks that always wants your attention, but just when you start slurping her, she loses interest. LeBron could be like one of them full of themself Long Island broads that you know in your gut is a waste of time.

That happens and the franchise will look like fools even more than they ever did with Marbury's Truck-gate and Isiah's Lewisnky scandal.

Maybe it'll all work out, but if there's a way to do it, I'd rather dictate the action.

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TMS
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12/28/2008  4:51 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Maybe it'll all work out, but if there's a way to do it, I'd rather dictate the action.

the best way to dictate the action is to have the cap flexibility in 2010 to do so... it serves this franchise no good to sacrifice the cap space they just made the moves to obtain before 2010 rolls around unless u can get players like the ones that will be available in 2010... if players like Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc. aren't worth waiting for, then who is? trading now for guys like Michael Redd, Vince Carter, Rashard Lewis, etc. is not going to get this franchise to where we wanna be in a few years... teams like DET, WAS & CHI are not going to be looking to dump guys like Rip, Butler & Deng for expiring contracts.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-28-2008 01:53 AM]
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JohnWallace44
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12/28/2008  4:35 PM
Waiting to see if maybe these players resign, and then maybe they want to sign with us for less money if they don't resign and playing sheety basketball and wasting a good coach for the next couple of years is at the very least a questionable strategy.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TMS
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12/28/2008  4:38 PM
sure it's questionable, nothing here is written in stone, but it's the better gamble to take than to hope that following the same course of action we've been on for the past decade will get us anywhere when we're 100% sure it won't.
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BasketballJones
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12/28/2008  4:40 PM
Posted by TMS:

sure it's questionable, nothing here is written in stone, but it's the better gamble to take than to hope that following the same course of action we've been on for the past decade will get us anywhere when we're 100% sure it won't.

What course of action was that?
https:// It's not so hard.
TMS
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12/28/2008  4:43 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by TMS:

sure it's questionable, nothing here is written in stone, but it's the better gamble to take than to hope that following the same course of action we've been on for the past decade will get us anywhere when we're 100% sure it won't.

What course of action was that?

sucking.
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JohnWallace44
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12/28/2008  8:30 PM
The Isiah strategy had us signing guys to huge deals, taking gambles that they would work out.
- Crawford
- Curry
- Jerome
- Jeffries

The situation the league is in via the Lebron panting contest and the economy is completely different.

Who knows what teams are willing to give up to get under the cap. Look what we gave up already.


Point is that I'm not saying we sign another set of Isiah type deals and put the franchise at risk for another decade.

What I'm saying is, I think there's a real possibility that you could trade expirings for guys who are signed through 2011 and get back a lot of one sided deals.

We happen to have a roster's worth of major expiring deals in the next two years.

I hope the front office is at least considering it as a possible route to take.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TMS
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12/28/2008  8:52 PM
the only players out of the ones you mentioned that i think we can realistically target right now are Gerald Wallace & Baron Davis to be honest.

i get the impression that DET plans to hold onto Rip & they already have cap space cleared for 2010, they have no reason to get fleeced on any deals to give him away.

i don't think Butler, Deng or Granger are gonna be given away for expiring deals either unless we threw in some nice sweeteners like our 1st round pick this season or someone like D Lee.

i honestly don't think the front office is even considering this as an option right now after all the moves they made to get under the cap in 2010... i don't think any major deals will be made until then, whether it be a FA signing or a trade unless some team steps up w/an offer we simply can't refuse for a cornerstone franchise talent... just MHO... of course if Donnie goes & trades D Lee away in a deal to get Boris Diaw here like it's being rumored he might, then i would have read his intentions all wrong.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-28-2008 5:54 PM]
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JohnWallace44
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12/28/2008  9:28 PM
Trading Lee and Curry for Diaw gives us more slightly more cap room in 2010, but anyway...


Here are the contracts that run until 2010/2011:
Paul Pierce ($21,513,521)
Kirk Hinrich (9,000,000), plus 8,000,000 (2011/2012)
Erick Dampier (13,075,000)
Jason Terry (10,650,000) plus 11,437,500 (2011/2012)
Kenyon Martin (16,545,454 player option)
Nene (14,200,000)
Carmelo Anthony (16,378,325), plus option for 2011/2012 (17,686,100)
Reggie Evans (5,080,000)
Tayshaun Prince (11,148,760)
Nazr Mohammed (6,883,800)
Jason Richardson (14,444,444)
Shane Battier (7,354,500)
Yao Ming (17,040,000)
Troy Murphy (11,968,253)
Mike Dunleavy (10,561,984)
Jamaal Tinsley (7,500,000)
Chris Kaman (11,300,000) plus for 2011/2012 (12,200,000)
Vladimir Radmanovic (6,883,800 player option)
Pau Gasol 17,822,187
Michael Redd 18,300,000 (player option)
Dan Gadzuric (7,243,750)
Marko Jaric (7,625,000)
Richard Jefferson (15,000,000)
Predrag Stojakovic (15,336,000)
Tyson Chandler (12,750,000 player option)
David West (8,287,500), plus option for 2011/2012 (7,525,000)
Eddy Curry (11,276,863 player option)
Jamal Crawford (10,080,000 player option)
Jared Jeffries (6,883,400 player option)
Samuel Dalembert (12,200,000)
Kyle Korver (5,536,303)
Boris Diaw (9,000,000) plus player option for 2011/2012 (9,000,000)
Leandrinho Barbosa (7,100,000) plus player option for 2011/2012 (7,600,000)
Zach Randolph (17,333,333)
Joel Przybilla (7,405,300)
John Salmons (5,808,000)
Tony Parker (13,500,000)
Nick Collison (6,750,000)
Andrea Bargnani (8,485,738)
Andrei Kirilenko (17,822,187)
Caron Butler (10,561,960)

Clearly we can get Diaw and I'd think we can get players like Kirilenko, Butler.

I think this Knicks team is going to totally collapse the more it becomes apparent that they're just place holders for a theoretical LeBron signing.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TMS
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12/28/2008  10:11 PM
there isn't a player on that list that i would sacrifice the 2010 plan for at this point... we'll be able to either sign or trade for comparable or better talent in 2010 if we remain patient & just stick to Walsh's plan... even if Lebron & his agent uses us to drive up his price (not sure how u can do that in the NBA when contract terms are predetermined for max players anyway), there are still going to be players worth holding out for in 2010.
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JohnWallace44
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12/28/2008  10:22 PM
At what point is it not worth it?

Stoudemire said he's still loyal to Phoenix yesterday.

Not sure why Wade would leave South Beach.

Joe Johnson would be leaving a better team.

So... you're talking Bosh essentially as a realistic option, and he'd be signing with a nothing roster of Curry, Jeffries, Gallo, Chandler.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TMS
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12/28/2008  10:25 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

At what point is it not worth it?

Stoudemire said he's still loyal to Phoenix yesterday.

Not sure why Wade would leave South Beach.

Joe Johnson would be leaving a better team.

So... you're talking Bosh essentially as a realistic option, and he'd be signing with a nothing roster of Curry, Jeffries, Gallo, Chandler.

how do u figure that? Bosh, Curry, Jefferies, Gallo & Chandler would amount to ~$40 mil or so, leaving at least another $15-20 mil on cap space to sign other players, plus u don't know who we're gonna be drafting this season either... there's no way u can assume we won't have anything around to appeal to any FA's in 2 years at this point.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-28-2008 7:25 PM]
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djsunyc
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12/28/2008  10:45 PM
i was a big proponent of starphucking the minute they hired d'antoni.
JohnWallace44
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12/28/2008  11:34 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

At what point is it not worth it?

Stoudemire said he's still loyal to Phoenix yesterday.

Not sure why Wade would leave South Beach.

Joe Johnson would be leaving a better team.

So... you're talking Bosh essentially as a realistic option, and he'd be signing with a nothing roster of Curry, Jeffries, Gallo, Chandler.

how do u figure that? Bosh, Curry, Jefferies, Gallo & Chandler would amount to ~$40 mil or so, leaving at least another $15-20 mil on cap space to sign other players, plus u don't know who we're gonna be drafting this season either... there's no way u can assume we won't have anything around to appeal to any FA's in 2 years at this point.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-28-2008 7:25 PM]

I know that we can't resign any of the current players unless we move someone first.

We'll end up having room for two max deals, but I'm saying that its not a sure thing at all that there will be two max players to sign.

And our roster at that point will most certainly be stripped.

Hopefully the 2009 pick is an impact player.

Projected roster going into 2010
PG:
SG: Chandler
SF: Gallo
PF: Jeffries
C: Curry
plus the 2009 pick
we don't have a 2010 #1
we don't have a 2009 #2

This will give us room for two max deals, and the rest of the roster can only be filled out through veteran minimum exception signings.

When Curry and Jeffries come off the cap in 2011 we'd have room to sign another major player theoretically.

If everything went exactly as hoped, I think 2011 is when you'd really start to have a contender. But, you're a Knicks fan and you know it won't go as planned.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
sebstar
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12/28/2008  11:40 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

I'm still not completely pumped about having a Lebron, Bosh, Gallo, Chandler and scraps team.

You wouldnt be happy with Lebron and Bosh?? You're trippin'. That team would scrape.
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TMS
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12/28/2008  11:54 PM
let's put it this way... even if we can't sign 2 bignames in 2010 & just make due w/1 max player like Chris Bosh & 2 lesser lower money level signings like say Mike Miller & Steve Nash, would that be so bad? that would still keep us in a position to go after players like Yao Ming, Caron Butler, Tony Parker, Tyson Chandler, Richard Jefferson & Andrei Kirilenko in 2011 & compete for a title that year... u don't think playong alongside Nash, Miller, Gallo, Chandler & our '09 1st round pick along w/the appeal of playing in a major market & being the man on the big stage would appeal to Chris Bosh?

& we still have no idea if Donnie will be able to dump Curry or Jefferies' contracts or not at this point... if he can somehow accomplish that then the outlook becomes even better because you can replace 1 of those guys w/D Lee, Nate, Harrington or Duhon, or just utilize that cap space in 2010 for even more flexibility in a trade or FA signing.

i know it's hard to have faith in this franchise to do the right thing but at this point that's better than giving up all hope & just settling for the same formula of taking on bloated contracts of veteran players to try & eek out a playoff appearance every year... we know that doesn't work.
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4949
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12/29/2008  12:17 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Even if everything goes as planned, even if we clear Curry or Jeffries from the roster and have tons of room coming into 2010, I'm still not completely pumped about having a Lebron, Bosh, Gallo, Chandler and scraps team.

What if... what if we go extremely bold in an Isiah with brains type way?

Hear me out...

You've got the league thinking that we're all in for Lebron and nothing else.

The whole league is trying to set themselves up for 2010. The economy is going to make teams want to cut payroll anyway.

We've got tons of expiring deals in the next two years.

Couldn't we... I mean, couldn't we really fleece teams for other star players and tell Lebron to go screw?

At the deadline we could trade Rose and Marbs for real good players AND picks given the environment we're in now and how desperate teams are to clear payroll.

The next year we could flip Q, Al, and Timmay in the same manner.

Tell me we couldn't build an even better team doing that.

What kind of players could we pull for those guys? Teams that have stars on long term deals but they aren't winning.

Baron
Rip
Butler
Deng
Granger
G Wallace

I'm on board with what we're doing, but I'd stand up and cheer if we stopped slurping BronBron and made a bold move in the other direction.

Here's the problem. If' Lebron signs the extension, then one of the top stars most likely will go to Cleveland by 2010. It could end up being the Celtics all over again. And make no mistake, Lebron is going to be supreme in the NBA for at least the next five years. Nobody will be able to stop Cleveland. Mark those words. And we'll just be once again 'a bunch of hasbeens'.

If we can't get Bron, then we have to acquire three' legit stars who can handle it and surround them with what we have and whatever else we can get. We'll have the money no doubt. Donnie will just have to do some convincing to those free agents.
I'll never trust this' team again.
CrushAlot
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12/29/2008  1:37 AM
I know it is very simple, it may not work out, and the player given up to clear cap space maybe better than what the Knicks get but at least it is a plan. The GM is not trying to make a big splash and draw attention to himself. Crazy moves or moves with no regards to positions or team chemistry,and salary cap are no longer being made. It doesn't take much to look like a good gm if you follow the worst gm in the history of sports.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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