As you know, I look for the minority view and try to squeeze the glimmer of hope I see in the post Dice trade.

I believe we have turned the corner of MSG madness because:

We have not done anything really stupid in 12 months (Spree is a "lateral move (Briggs)" to get some size. Most might not agree with it, but is not a really stupid idea either.

We have not traded a pick. This is key, because our picks were very nice this year for the future.

And I give props to Laydog because a year ago we did not have, nor did we believe we had assets to create a pipeline of youth. But our 3 2nd round picks that many have used as proposed trade sweetner in the past, acutally turned into our future. We need 3 years to evaluate these kids, and we need to get milos here.

The dice trade was a disaster, I agree, but if Williams and Lampe turn good, it will offset not having NENE or Amare.

I don't care about the past, and I don't care whose fault it is. If our management has taken a different approach to rebuilding the team, then we should applaude the effort. If Dolan Fired laydog and directed the new GM to keep the team filled with playoff bound bloated roster with no aspirations for excellence, then what go would that do?

given our assets and lack of tradable assets, most of us are reasonably satisfied with the direction of the team. If Laydog publically said last year he was rebuilding thru the second round, most would have laughed their heads off. But the POTENTIAL of Milos, Lampe and Vranes is substantial, but still a few years off. We have contracts that will end in the next few years. I think we go to the lottery one or two more times.

These are just some of my views. Mostly realistic and pointed toward identifying a change and an uncertain future.

While I understand where you're trying to go with this, there are some things regarding LayDown that just can't be realistically overlooked:

• The KVH trade... Very true that most don't agree with it, and it's because defense and fire was sacrificed for size and a couple of rebounds.


• One can't be given props for doing something (using picks properly) once out of all the chances he's had during his tenure. Anyone who's on a job and makes counter-productive moves 3 out of 4 times usually won't get another chance to possibly screw things up again. What makes LayDown such an exception to the rule?


• "I don't care about the past, and I don't care whose fault it is.". Say what? If the world worked that way, then there would be no such thing as a track record or reputation to be used as criteria to qualify for a job (any job) in the first place. As I stated in another thread, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it". Fortunately, this is the real world and people are held acountable for their actions, whether positive or negative.



• "If Dolan Fired laydog and directed the new GM to keep the team filled with playoff bound bloated roster with no aspirations for excellence, then what go(od) would that do?". So we should give NYK management a standing ovation for keeping LayDown after compiling a lottery-bound team with bloated contracts with no aspirations for excellence? Does that help us gain wins or prestige? Does that help the Knicks save the 40 million dollars they gotta spend on the luxury tax? Are those things "good" at all?

Some of those views, when pitted against history and logic, just do not pan out, Nedyal.

I do agree with your prediction of us going to the lottery again, though. Eventually it'll earn LayDown his pink slip.

KVH trade was not VERY STUPID. I Stated this was my Minority view. I also think the majority is mostly wrong in many cases with many views. I manage money for a living, and the masses are usually late to the table, follow the trend, then get caught in the down draft. Being a follower is easy, being a leader is hard.

Look at my signature by Einstein. If Laydog were to follow the same thinking then his history would be paramount. I think the directive comes from Dolan. Dolan made a mistake to ask a rookie gm (laydog) to make the kind of trades he did. Team president did not hire the right gm to do that job. But to rebuild using the limited assets might be Laydogs strength, so this may be what he was hired to do. Granted, IN MY OPINION, I discount those unfortunate trades. If I ask one of my analysts to go down to the trading floor and work, He'd mess up. thats my fault, or in this case its team president or Dolans fault. Send the right person to do the right job. If I am laydog and asked to do that job, I ask for a 10 year contract and with the understanding its not the right thing to do, but you'll do your best. Thats why he got the long term deal.

The point your missing is your not getting to the root of the failure, just blaming the GM for the current state. Look at it as a business model and the goal was for keeping the team in the playoffs. This team cannot do it. Dolan is not going to fire Laydog unitl this rebuild fails. The root of cause is what your looking for, not the symptoms.

When companies fail you can fire everyone, but if you replace them with people whom keep doing the same thing, then you must change the level of thinking in which you ask them to do there job.

When one of my staff mess's up, I don't fire them unless they are not following protocal. So Hardcore, thats the question! What was the protocal? I expect my staff to mess up, and I do too. But in our business, as in sports its the percentages. Baseball players whom hit 300% fail 70% of the time. Hit 325%, and your an excellent player, but your failure rate is just a little better. Look at the majority of teams, they mess up all the time, but also do things well.

The Knicks have been mismanaged for many years, I'd say the moment Pat Riley left. I blame checketts for running this team like a broadway show. Nelson was the right coach for the wrong team. Nelson was a marquee name to replace the ulitimate (riley) but did not consider that his style for that group of players was wrong.

Van Gundy was put in place to placate Ewing. I like JVG, but in retrospect it was not a good hire.

The whole dam transition from the ewing era was botched up by Ernie also. Ernie was wrong to run out and get Camby and shove him down JVG throat. It worked for a year. Checketts had to fire Grunfeld, and JVG got a repreave for his trip to the finals (and auto extension). JVG was about to get his ax when lady luck shined on him. Good hard working man, and I am happy for his success.

Checketts was fired for running both teams (rangers)into the ground. Checketts was given unusual powers from hands off owner. This is not an opinion, this is factual.

Laydog absolutley was over his head and made some bad deals to keep a veteran team pulling in playoff cash. He got ripped by David Falk to keep Glen (get my money then stop working hard) Rice, then traded for Shandon and Eisley. Signing Spoon was also a bad idea.

At that moment he should have been fired. Still about 9 years left on his exptension, but that was the moment. Why not? Well thats what you have to ask youself? Also, why was he hired? Checketts fired Ernie, basically let Tapscott have it interm, but screwed the pooch in 5minutes, so Laydog was not first choice. Checketts (was now msg president) was on the outs, so most likely he and dolan agreed to let Laydog have it. I don't think he was ready to take the job given his background of player development in Utah. At some time some one thought this (player developement)would be a good Idea in New York, because we have not done it for many many years. So It is my thought that Laydog was liked and trusted by management, and the thought would be he is the right man to rebuild at some point.

Dice was a fantastic trade to get a star player in his prime! That team would have made at least 2 rounds in weak east playoff and team would have cashed in nicely! If that is what is needed at the garden (not a basketball decision) then that is the directive handed down to Laydog last year. Big risk, did not pan out as we all to well know.

I think the team is starting to get it now. The best teams are built thru the draft.

So if these are the times to do it, then he is the right man. If you have not fired him up to now, why then do it? Deductive reasoning permits this to be a logical desision if I were faced with making that choice. Most fans are logically calling for his head because the majority acts collectively with emotions dictating that choice.

Look, california has a bad tax law problem that lead to the current crisis short fall. Many laws for many years have built up to that mess. Gray Davis did not create it in his brief tenure. But someone has to be for blame, and a mob will call for someones head. Swartzenegger is no way qualified to make a substantial change unless the lawas are rectified. Change the root of the problem and you'll change the symptoms.

And you don't see any changes happening to the decision making process different this year than in previous years??

"If you have not fired him up to now, why then do it? Deductive reasoning permits this to be a logical desision if I were faced with making that choice. Most fans are logically calling for his head because the majority acts collectively with emotions dictating that choice."


Spot on. I think there's a vast chasm between that which the emotions desire and that which the mind reasons. (Anyone who's dealt with a woman knows this...)

I think we all can admit some degree of frustration with the recent mismanagement of the NYK...However IF (IF!) they've finally figured out what needs to be done in the post-Patrick era, and I think they finally have...then let's let 'em do it. Houston is going to be the last remnant of that era when all's said and done. When his contract ends, we'll officially be in the next millenium. I hope that Scotty and Jimmy can prepare us for the day Allan comes off the books.






[Edited by - knixphan on 09/09/2003 17:02:58]

Ha! Thanks. You KNOW the Knicks are like a fine woman who drives you crazy because she's just laden (Layden?) with drama.

We have KVH,Mcdyess,Kurt Thomas, Sweetney,Lampe, not to mention Harrington, Weatherspoon, Knight, and Doleac that all arguabally naturally play the 4 or Power Forward.

We have 3 pgs and a future prospect: Ward, Eisley, Frank Williams and Milos

We have 2 SG, in which cant guard shooting guards because of their lack of speed. Houston and Anderson.

We have no 3s

We have 1 raw 5, Vranes in which wont average more than 10minutes per game this year.

Yet how many millions are we over the cap?

No, im not pointing the negatives, Im just analyzing what the assets the New York Knicks currently have.

We have mass talent at the 4, I think we should unload some for future 1st round picks and possibly salary cap relievers. Example...
Kurt Thomas for Dan Gudzuric and a 1st round pick ( which would probably be worth pretty high in the Bucks state now )
Another would be, Antonio Mcdyess(resigned if wanted) and Weatherspoon for a salary dumper and a 1st round pick.

In order to keep our future talents such as lampe, sweetney, milos, and vranes. We will have to clear salary cap instead of being another Golden State, watching the players develop and then walk.
I think this can be in effect, after Keith Van Horns contract runs out, at fastest. Till then, I believe we should realize who will stay, and who possibly wont.

1) Howard Eisley(no one will take this contract unless for another bad contract)
2) Allan Houston ( 20 million? dont kidd urself..)
3) a Position we should seek in lottery or FA
4) Sweetney
5) a Position we should seek in lottery or FA

Lampe(could possibly play some 3-5, a good 6th man if he develops)
,Vranes(2nd Centerat most, not exactly starter material),
Milos
,Anderson and weatherspoon (unless we can hopefully find another sucker for em...I would give a 1st round pick possibly or and other talent to package em)

If Antonio Mcdyess becomes a player he was, I still believe we will be too much over the cap to make a sufficent run because we still dont have a 2 or 3 that can really guard a 2 or 3. and we dont have a legit center.
But if he is the player he was, another way to go about it is to
1)resign the monster
2)try to trade our future talents + bad contracts for future picks/salary cap relievers
ex. Sweetney,knight,harrintgon, and weatherspoon, for one expiring contract
3) pick up a Center from FG/trade/draft

Anderson is a tough SF in a SG body.

I really hope the knicks and laydon somehow can do it, I will just pray for the best and watch my knicks and timberwolves(spree) in the meantime. Once again, this is my opinion, Feel free to express urself with reasoning, explain if u guys feel my ideas are headed in the right direction or not ...for our NYKs

Posted by Nedyal1:

Great response's!

Gray davis has Shrinking tax rolls and increasing expenses. Recessions suck! Part of it is his fault, but tax reform has gone too far in too many areas in Calif, and they need to make changes.

I think Arnold Should be the knicks nexT Gm.

Perhaps it is in our culture that someone must be punished for underperformance. I am in agreement that the sins of the past must be recognized, but so long as there is a different thought pattern to fix it, then we must first recognize it, then understand we cannot undo what has been done. Amen.

that is true, The past is the past and so far the direction layden has been going or seems to be going is one of rebuilding. the knicks are rebuilding weither MSG admits it or not, and that is fine with me. I can deal with losing as long as we are building a good foundation for the future, what bothers me is the losing with no direction, a bloated cap with ne end in sight and a pattern or the quick fix, if layden can avoid that then maybe he can change the views of some of the fans of the NY knicks..

Yeah - I'm a CA resident (Los Ang) and I know the Gray Davis woes very well...(Although the recall circus is maddening also)

As long as we don't head into another round of expensive trash-free-agent signings and band-aids on broken femurs, I'm willing to hold my breath again and hope that we can play above expectations while still amassing young talent who will serve as the supporting cast for LeBron when he leaves the Cavs.

Ok, that's just dream #1... I got more...

The "Speison Trilogy",

Sounds like some trashy ABC miniseries staring Richard Chamberlan, Joan Collns, and HEather Locklear.

I think we should trade Spoon and the rights "rocking steady" Freddy Weiss to Charlotte for an unproteced no. 1 pick or we kick tapscotts ass.

That's so far in the past, it shouldn't be an issue we can't let go of. We'll be better off thinking who he'll take in the '04 expansion draft.

I have a feeling he'll take KVH. If he does that, I'll let him off the hook for the Weis draft.

Come to think of it, it just might be.