S&P index funds have garnered a lot of attention over the last couple of years for good reason. The Vanguard S&P 500 fund has outperformed over 90% of all domestic equity mutual funds over the past three and five years (and a much higher number if you include bond and international equity funds). But S&P index funds certainly aren't the only index funds -- and in fact may not even be the best.

Posted by Nalod:

Vanguard ETF's yes, but funds no.

They are index funds. Go slow, your not trying to beat the market but beat the market volatility.

If you don't know how to do this, find someone that does. "price is only an issue in the absense of quality".

Fine a successful person who has 20 plus years in the market. No, find 3 people.

Im telling you what is important and you cannot get what you need off a blog or website.

This is not science, its theory and you need a discipline to get you thru it.

Low fees are not the end all if you don't understand Alpha.

Remember, wealthy people pay for people to manage their money. They pay to have their taxes done, Lawyers to draw contracts, etc.

Hire a professional to get a professional result. And if you don't have the coin to get one because your under the minimum find someone that will mentor you or perhaps call thier professional and they might make an exception for someone they care about.

If you want to emulate wealth then don't seek out the low cost provider. There are reasons for that.

Posted by Nalod:

Posted by Solace:

Posted by Nalod:

Vanguard ETF's yes, but funds no.

They are index funds. Go slow, your not trying to beat the market but beat the market volatility.

If you don't know how to do this, find someone that does. "price is only an issue in the absense of quality".

Fine a successful person who has 20 plus years in the market. No, find 3 people.

Im telling you what is important and you cannot get what you need off a blog or website.

This is not science, its theory and you need a discipline to get you thru it.

Low fees are not the end all if you don't understand Alpha.

Remember, wealthy people pay for people to manage their money. They pay to have their taxes done, Lawyers to draw contracts, etc.

Hire a professional to get a professional result. And if you don't have the coin to get one because your under the minimum find someone that will mentor you or perhaps call thier professional and they might make an exception for someone they care about.

If you want to emulate wealth then don't seek out the low cost provider. There are reasons for that.

I respectfully disagree. If you can keep your money in for a good amount of time (5 - 10 years), then mutual funds are generally the way to go. People like to think they can play the market, but most people significantly underperform the market. Statistics have shown that the lower your cost, the more you can bring home. People who advocate differently generally have a vested interest in getting people to pay for their services.

There is a very strong correlation between performance of funds and the actual performance shareholders experience. Why? No load investors tend to stay in shorter than funds bought thru advisors.

Also, working with a professional will help you asset your tolerance for pain and help you set parameters. Remember, books and magazines prefer you keep reading their stuff and are not accountable. A paid professional is accountable.

Why does firms like Morgan, Merrill and Smith Barney have avg account relationships that average about 500k per, but e-trade about 10k? Schwab is about 50k.

People with more money don't pay the same rates as small investors. Mutual funds are communal and everyone pays the same rate, so the more you have the more you pay.

Its not inherently evil for someone to get paid to do a good job. Everyday we employ people to work on our cars, houses, bodies, etc. All things we can do ourselves.

The "do it yourself" investment business positions itself (marketing) that you can do it yourself. Its way more complicated.

Like I said, beating the market is not always the best thing for some people. So a blanket statement that your paying someone to underperform is not entirely accurate.

Its relative to the risk you take.

Way too much to discuss in this forum.

One of my benchmarks is 60% downside and 80% upside participation in the market.

Guess what, I beat the market anyway.

You win by not losing.

Most look at "Beating the market" on the upside. If you can't, then you buy an index. ANd indexs drop more than most people can stomach, so they sell.

If you sell, your out. Since timing does not work, then the masses underperform. Why? They are emotional.

The key is alpha. Keep you downs at a minimum so you can stay in. If you can stay in, you can buy on dips. The dips are not your reality, but an opportunity.

If you feel safe, you can see things with clarity. If your worried about your existance, then one should have proper liquidity.

and if you don't have it, then you better be less volitile than the markets to begin with. Thats the key, how you go into this is how you come out.

Are the indexs acceptable this year? month? Not in my book.

Hank, you learn by doing, not just reading.

Thats why I keep saying, find a few people that are really doing it.

There is no one way to do this!!!!!! Thats why you can read every day, every book and every mag and not have a clue. Find a dicipline and don't deviate. Be methodical. This is the hard part.

and if you can't, then find someone that can.

If you were in trouble you'd find the best lawyer, if you had tax problems you'd find the best aco****ant. Why skimp on you money? Why find the lowest cost provider?

Im not saying be stupid and get with a broker that is not your advocate first.

Fine a successful one and hope he can take you on. Most won't if your small. Thats Why I said find someone that can take you under his/her wing.

This is money, don't be stupid.