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NY Stadium Name May Have Nazi Ties... Big Deal?


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SupremeCommander
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The new Giants/Jets stadium may be named Allianz Stadium, which has some major Nazi ties. Is this a big deal or has enough time passed?
quote:
Naming Rights and Historical Wrongs By RICHARD SANDOMIR The Giants and the Jets face moral and public-relations questions as they negotiate the possible sale of the naming rights to their new stadium with Allianz, a Munich-based insurer and financial services company with disturbing connections to Nazi Germany. Allianz insured facilities and personnel at concentration camps like Auschwitz and Dachau. Kurt Schmitt, its chief executive in the 1930s, served as Hitler’s second economics minister and can be seen in a photograph from a rally wearing an SS-Oberführer’s uniform and delivering the Nazi salute with Hitler standing in front of him. Like other insurers in Germany at the time, Allianz followed anti-Semitic policies by terminating or refusing to pay off the life insurance policies of Jews, and sent cash that was due beneficiaries and survivors to the Nazis. It also became the insurer of Jewish valuables taken by the Nazis. Gerald Feldman was a historian asked by Allianz in 1997 to produce an unfettered history of its role in Hitler’s Germany. He wrote in “Allianz and the German Insurance Business, 1933-1945” about when the company extended its group accident insurance for engineers working for the notorious I.G. Farben chemical company at Auschwitz. “It was just one more piece of business in the Third Reich,” he wrote in his book, which was published in 2001, “but it demonstrated that such pieces on any large scale made contact at some point with all that is represented by the name ‘Auschwitz’ — from slave labor to extermination — virtually inescapable.” A deal with Allianz would not be easy to sell publicly, like Citigroup’s with the Mets. The possibility of an Allianz Stadium will make some people cringe, especially in a market that is home to many Jewish people, and in which the Tisch family, which owns half of the Giants, has supported many Jewish causes. “There must be sensitivity to the psychological impact this would have,” said Elan Steinberg, a vice president of the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors and Their Descendants. “Survivors are still alive. It would not be appropriate to affix the Allianz name to a stadium name in an area where a lot of survivors still living.” A serious burden will be on the Giants and the Jets to persuade fans and others of the propriety of naming a stadium for Allianz, even if its terrible era is more than 60 years past. The teams have hired a crisis management firm to vet all naming rights candidates, but it is certain that most of its time has been spent on Allianz. • Even the best arguments in Allianz’s favor are imperfect. The teams can say that Allianz has done much to atone for its role before and during the war, but no amount of apologies or restitution to victims and survivors can make full amends for its past. The teams can say Allianz participated in two major efforts that began in the 1990s to compensate slave and forced laborers as well as insurance policy holders — but only after pressure from the American government, state insurance regulators and Jewish groups, and class-action suits filed in federal court. The teams refused to speak about Allianz, which has United States subsidiaries like Fireman’s Fund Insurance and Oppenheimer Capital, because a deal is not done. And Allianz refused to discuss the naming-rights negotiations. But Peter Lefkin, a senior vice president of Allianz of America, said, “Over the years, Allianz has done everything possible to redress all the wrongs perpetuated by the Third Reich.” Stuart Eizenstat, who was President Clinton’s special representative on Holocaust-era issues, said that Allianz cooperated on compensation, but only after it demanded legal protection from being sued, which he felt was appropriate. “Allianz paid all its claims under I.C.H.E.I.C.,” he said, referring to the International Commission on Holocaust Era Insurance Claims, which has distributed more than $300 million to 48,000 claimants. “It paid its dues, participated in a good-faith process, and has continued to pay claims even after I.C.H.E.I.C. closed it doors last year.” Critics insist that Allianz and other companies have not paid nearly enough under a very flawed process. Sidney Zabludoff, an economist who specializes in restitution finances, said Allianz acted “reasonably,” but operated under “German rules” that kept its payments at a lower rate than those paid by insurers in other European countries. In all, he said, Allianz has paid claimants about $12 million through International Commission on Holocaust Era Insurance Claims. The Jets and the Giants will now determine if Allianz will be able to use their stadium to extend its global brand to the United States by paying them $20 million or $30 million a year. • Michael J. Bazyler, a professor at the Chapman University School of Law and the author of “Holocaust Justice,” said accepting the concept of Allianz Stadium might be as individual a choice as buying a German car, which he would not. “If it was Allianz Stadium, would I not go to the game?” Bazyler said, the son of Holocaust survivors. “I’d feel uncomfortable. But when people think of a German company that cooperated with the Nazis, Allianz doesn’t pop up.” E-mail: sportsbiz@nytimes.com
Personally, I think its BS. There is a large Jewish population in the greater NYC area and I think both ownership groups should lay some profit on the table out of respect if it comes to that.
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Author Thread
sebstar
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9/11/2008  6:02 PM
Well, if there is one thing I know in the future its that the new stadium will not be name Allianz. Since the Holocaust, I think the record for Jews has been like 29,972-0
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TMS
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9/11/2008  7:04 PM
ugh, please just name it the "NJ Meadowlands Stadium" for God's sakes.
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BasketballJones
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9/11/2008  7:11 PM
Your poll is confusing. What does "Yes" mean - that it is a big deal? Or that enough time has past?

For the record, I think using that name is a bad idea.

Even without the historical knowledge, it sounds too foreign. I hate to be xenophobic, but what do Germans care about American football and baseball?

It's just weird.



[Edited by - basketballjones on 09-11-2008 19:13]
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oohah
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9/11/2008  8:10 PM
But it fits since they are renaming the Jets to "Herr Storm Troopers".

oohah

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Anji
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9/11/2008  8:13 PM
If this wasn't about Jewish people, nobody would care.............
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
TheSage
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9/11/2008  8:44 PM
Posted by Anji:

If this wasn't about Jewish people, nobody would care.............

What is that supposed to mean??? And if it was named for organization which an historical prejudice against African Americans nobody would care?

While sensitivity is often overemphasized-we are still talking about an entity which supported a regimes that resulted in the deaths of about 6 million Jews and over 70 million people in total and almost 4% of the world population.
oohah
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9/11/2008  9:01 PM
Don't some other companies that were quite active in Germany still exist? I thought Mercedes was involved in the German war effort as well. Can they have a stadium named after them?

Plenty of companies supported pretty bad things in the past, or the present for that matter. I am not sure we can ban all of them. I would sooner ban DeBeers from having a stadium because they are involved with current oppression.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
djsunyc
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9/11/2008  9:37 PM
can we rename the giants and jets to the NEW JERSEY giants and NEW JERSEY jets? how in any way shape or form are they new york teams?
TheSage
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9/11/2008  9:38 PM
Posted by oohah:

Don't some other companies that were quite active in Germany still exist? I thought Mercedes was involved in the German war effort as well. Can they have a stadium named after them?

Plenty of companies supported pretty bad things in the past, or the present for that matter. I am not sure we can ban all of them. I would sooner ban DeBeers from having a stadium because they are involved with current oppression.

oohah

You really don't understand. while some companies were in business in Germany and manufactured or operated there like Mercedes- others like Allianz were direct participants in the activities directed against the Jewish people. They literally took from the Jews profited from their actions and were lated cited for those activities. It is true that they paid millions in reparation but those reparations were paid under duress not voluntarily. Companies like DeBeers never took actions against particular people but those people were nonetheless hurt by those actions-it did matter to DeBeers that the mine worker were black-it could have been poor whites it was just that most of the mine workers happen to have been black. Many American companies have been guilty of far greater -taking actions which hurt groups- blacks, women, jews catholics and many of these actions have been ameriorated by lawsuits and legislation.
TMS
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9/11/2008  9:49 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

can we rename the giants and jets to the NEW JERSEY giants and NEW JERSEY jets? how in any way shape or form are they new york teams?

the same way the "Dallas Cowboys" who play in Irvine, TX have their name
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djsunyc
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9/11/2008  9:52 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by djsunyc:

can we rename the giants and jets to the NEW JERSEY giants and NEW JERSEY jets? how in any way shape or form are they new york teams?

the same way the "Dallas Cowboys" who play in Irvine, TX have their name

the giants and jets play in another state. their owners deal with the nj taxes. they deal with nj rules. nothing about them is new york except for their name. in a city like ny, how can they not have a team to play in the city itself? let's call the nets the ny nets right now. and the devils too.
TMS
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9/11/2008  10:02 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by djsunyc:

can we rename the giants and jets to the NEW JERSEY giants and NEW JERSEY jets? how in any way shape or form are they new york teams?

the same way the "Dallas Cowboys" who play in Irvine, TX have their name

the giants and jets play in another state. their owners deal with the nj taxes. they deal with nj rules. nothing about them is new york except for their name. in a city like ny, how can they not have a team to play in the city itself? let's call the nets the ny nets right now. and the devils too.

both franchises maintain offices in NYC & i'm sure they do have to pay NY taxes to license their names w/NY on them... it's all about marketing dollars... & they already tried to bring the Jets to NY w/no success... the logistics of relocating to West Side Manhatten are just way too complicated & it would never work from a practical standpoint... IMO the Jets should look into merging w/the Mets at City Field & the Giants should stay in Rutherford... i'm sick of sharing a stadium w/those Greenie heads.
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franco12
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9/11/2008  10:31 PM
Posted by TheSage:
Posted by oohah:

Don't some other companies that were quite active in Germany still exist? I thought Mercedes was involved in the German war effort as well. Can they have a stadium named after them?

Plenty of companies supported pretty bad things in the past, or the present for that matter. I am not sure we can ban all of them. I would sooner ban DeBeers from having a stadium because they are involved with current oppression.

oohah

You really don't understand. while some companies were in business in Germany and manufactured or operated there like Mercedes- others like Allianz were direct participants in the activities directed against the Jewish people. They literally took from the Jews profited from their actions and were lated cited for those activities. It is true that they paid millions in reparation but those reparations were paid under duress not voluntarily. Companies like DeBeers never took actions against particular people but those people were nonetheless hurt by those actions-it did matter to DeBeers that the mine worker were black-it could have been poor whites it was just that most of the mine workers happen to have been black. Many American companies have been guilty of far greater -taking actions which hurt groups- blacks, women, jews catholics and many of these actions have been ameriorated by lawsuits and legislation.

same company, but is it still run by the same people? Or, are those guilty germans dead? How long will we hold a company guilty for something long dead individuals did?
oohah
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9/11/2008  10:56 PM
You really don't understand. while some companies were in business in Germany and manufactured or operated there like Mercedes- others like Allianz were direct participants in the activities directed against the Jewish people. They literally took from the Jews profited from their actions and were lated cited for those activities. It is true that they paid millions in reparation but those reparations were paid under duress not voluntarily. Companies like DeBeers never took actions against particular people but those people were nonetheless hurt by those actions-it did matter to DeBeers that the mine worker were black-it could have been poor whites it was just that most of the mine workers happen to have been black. Many American companies have been guilty of far greater -taking actions which hurt groups- blacks, women, jews catholics and many of these actions have been ameriorated by lawsuits and legislation.

Actually I really do understand, so please don't be condescending.

I think I bring up a very good point with Mercedes. It seems you wouldn't mind them having their name on a stadium. You draw the distinction that Allianz was actively backing the Nazi party, while Mercedes just profited greatly from the holocaust. That is a difference, but I don't think it is truly important. That is like saying it is okay to profit fomr misery as long as you are not the author of that misery. I don't see it that way. And I bet if we took a real good look we would find Mercedes was more than just a contractor for the Nazi party.

The fact is the company Allianz still exists. They have paid reparations etc. but that really doesn't matter to me, it doesn't change what they did or their role in the suffering of millions of people. But if Allianz still exists and they can sell their product here they should be able to advertise, just like Mercedes, DeBeers, or the other companies you alluded to who are U.S. Corporations that have engaged in or been responsible for terrible actions both past and present.

I know this is a hot-button issue for you because I have read your posts when it comes to this stuff before. And I think you really are against having the name Allianz plastered on a stadium, which will bring up painful memories for some. Fair enough. But objectively since they have not been shut down they have every right to advertise and endorse. If you don't think they do, the issue is not whether they should be on a stadium, but instead, should they be forced to close up shop because of their role in WWII 60-70 years ago. And to be fair, we should do an audit of a lot of other companies and shut them down too.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
kam77
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9/11/2008  11:39 PM
Posted by oohah:

Don't some other companies that were quite active in Germany still exist? I thought Mercedes was involved in the German war effort as well. Can they have a stadium named after them?

Plenty of companies supported pretty bad things in the past, or the present for that matter. I am not sure we can ban all of them. I would sooner ban DeBeers from having a stadium because they are involved with current oppression.

oohah

Wikipedia: Volkswagen

Adolf Hitler had a keen interest in cars even though he did not drive. In 1933, shortly after taking over as leader of Germany, he asked Ferdinand Porsche to make changes to his original 1931 design to make it more suited for the working man. Hans Ledwinka discussed his ideas with Ferdinand Porsche, who used many Tatra design features in the 1938 "KdF-Wagen", later known as the VW Käfer - or Volkswagen Beetle. On 22 June 1934, Dr. Ferdinand Porsche agreed to create the "People's Car" for Hitler.
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EnySpree
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9/12/2008  1:05 AM
I think naming the stadium this would be terrible. Why do business with an organization with this history? Its a shame that they are still powerful enough to have a pro team out of country named after them.

While we are at it.....the country is hundreds of years deep in cotton money! Reparations bitches!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery

[Edited by - enyspree on 12-09-2008 01:06 AM]
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Nalod
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9/12/2008  1:06 AM
I think for some they will never forgive, while others will move on.

we have insurance companies and banks in this country that financed the south in the civil war and insured Black slaves as property, and there still in operation to this day.

Should we ban them even if they long gave up the practice and the pricipals involved are long dead>?

Personally, As a Jew, the issue is complex and not simple. If they have paid up as a company and don't currently discriminate then I don't have a problem. This is a global economy and the world has changed in regards to how business is done. I only drive German cars and have for many years. I invest in europe and know some of the companies I do may have checkered pasts, but so do many American and asian as well. Many of the Japenese products we use are from companies that manufactered war goods in ww2.

I think Allianze has to look at this as an investment they want to make given the circumstances.

But make no mistake, Deutch Bank, Credit Swiss, UBS and others all have some nasty history. VW, Mercedes, Bosch, Bayer, IBM, Fuji Heavy, Mitsubishi, all have similar ties to a checkerd past.

I say to each his own. Its very personal.
fishmike
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9/12/2008  8:02 AM
Posted by EnySpree:

I think naming the stadium this would be terrible. Why do business with an organization with this history? Its a shame that they are still powerful enough to have a pro team out of country named after them.

While we are at it.....the country is hundreds of years deep in cotton money! Reparations bitches!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery

[Edited by - enyspree on 12-09-2008 01:06 AM]
I always think of this.. especially now as my 3rd grader starts learning history. North, South, East, West... this country was founded treason, slave labor, extortion and outright theft. But hey... look at us now, we are the bastion of peace and prosperity. I love America but creation and growth is the furthest thing from romantic

Anyway I hate naming stadiums but oh well. As for the Nazi "ties" if you were a German company in the late 30s-40s you either were Nazi affiliates or you were out of business and probably much worse (dead). Getting in bed with Hitler wasnt politics it was survival
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Nalod
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9/12/2008  9:29 AM
As long as Allianze does not insist the Jets change their name to "Strahlen" and the Giants to "Riesen"!
PresIke
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9/12/2008  11:22 AM
Whatever none of us are ever going to sit in "good" seats at the new stadiums being built anyway.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
NY Stadium Name May Have Nazi Ties... Big Deal?

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