Malik Rose
David Lee
Nate Robinson S+T Fred Jones

for
Bulls 2009# top 3 restriction only than unrestricted 2010
Larry Hughes
Tyrus Thomas

That gives the Bulls flexibility to sign BG and still have the cap space for a tier 1 free agent next year by getting rid of Hughes. We gte a pick with no restriction Tyrus Thomas[who I think still can be awesome in uptempo] and Hughes for two years

No. Get rid of Zach or Eddy first.

I'm not a big Ty Thomas fan and, with Rose on their roster, I doubt the pick will be all that exciting. Hughes could be a good player for us for the next couple of years.

Posted by Ira:

I'm not a big Ty Thomas fan and, with Rose on their roster, I doubt the pick will be all that exciting. Hughes could be a good player for us for the next couple of years.

Im willing to do a deal that brings back a very nice prospect and a 2009 pick which will not be in the 20s. To do that Im also willing to take on 2009 salary[who cares?] and give up two guys who will probably ask for 13mm+ combined in the 2010 year in Lee and Robinson.

This is a pretty good deal for Chicago as well--they get the best player in the deal as of now[lee] who they could really use Nate who is better than Hughes and ending contracts that lower this years cap to get something done with BG and next year they have a great deal of space.

We walk out with three assets 2009 pick Tyrus Thomas and we dont have to pay Lee or nate in 2010.

Posted by buddapaw:

No more deals with Chicago, please

+1.

Posted by MS:

no reason to do this deal, why would you want corey at 10 million per signed for five years, Turiaf type players are easy to come by and bellini hasn't proven anything yet.

Chandler is too young and too cheap to trade, especially with the array of move that he showed in summer league. If we are going to move nate I don't see why we wouldn't do it for someone like Jarvis Critteton. We don't need to keep adding guys that can't or won't play d at the guard spot, I think you could work out a deal giving them Eddy for Darko/Jarvis.

If you are going to move Lee I think the heat would do a Marbury/Lee for the matrix and fringe player since they are not going to resign him.

Hey you're right, I didn't really know the terms of Maggette's deal. That would be a little too rich for our blood. I do know this though - this kid Belinelli's gonna be good (he hasn't shown anything yet in the NBA because he hasn't played). Tell me though, who would you rather have as your starting 2 moving forward, Crawford or Belinelli?

And like I told you the other day on your thread, I do like the Crittenton/Darko deal. That would be nice. I'd do that in a heartbeat....

Posted by Pharzeone:

Finestrg, they are not just going on Chandler's play in summer league but his late play in the NBA season. Both Walsh and D'Antoni pointed out Chandler's play from the NBA season as guys they like on the current roster before summer league. I can understand that many may not have watch the Knicks in March and April but Chandler was one of the best players for them. From what I gather, D'Antoni has a lot more faith in Chandler than in Gallinari who has yet to prove that he can play at all in the NBA. Remember he only had one decent half in a SL that he got injured in and hasn't recover from yet. Not only that, you want to get a guy who only shine in summer league and did nothing during the regular season as your "jewel guy" That is some real Euro bias.

I don't agree with any of this but I'll be on later to discuss it with you. Gotta go now.

MS - if I'm gonna move Lee (and we're gonna keep Zach, at least for the time being) I want to sure up a position of weakness for the future. No Matrix with Gallo, Chandler & Zach Randolph already in the mix. No "fringe" player. What's the point of that trade? I'd like to think we can do better for Lee than that. And that's not saying Marion isn't a very good player, I know he is, he's just not the type of young cost-effective solution they should be looking for. That's gotta be the philosophy when considering dealing a productive chip like David Lee. Every trade I've ever proposed on this board has always been based solely on bringing in a youngster that I believe has the potential to grow into an impact player shortly then hopefully stay here and produce at a high level for a long time to come. And sometimes it involves a little bit of vision, trust in your scouting department, a feeling in your gut of how a player will project and fit in down the road, etc... Anything else, I'm not interested in. I don't want any over-payed vets, stop-gap types, etc. - we don't need guys like that. A rebuilding team does just that, it retools with building blocks, young building blocks. Hence the hypothetical trade for Marco Belinelli. You're right, Belinelli's kind of an unknown quantity at this point to most. And now that GS landed themselves Turiaf, even offering them David Lee doesn't make any sense. But are you seriously telling me you don't think this kid doesn't have potential just because his current team hasn't figured out a way to get him some playing time yet??? And your just gonna poo-poo the last two summer leagues he's starred in??? Just looking at Belinelli's potential, he's got everything I'd want in a young off-guard building block for the future (a position on this team I consider a major weakness): he's young (about 2, 3 yrs. younger than Lee - the younger the better), he's got nice size at 6'5", he's a plus shooter/a pure shooter (as opposed to the volume shooters we have in place with Craw and Q), he can handle it well (he was playing some point in Europe), he's got above average quickness and strength (I don't care what the scouting reports say about his lack of strength, I've seen him excel two summers in a row now, and he takes it to the rim and absorbs contact very well with good body control and finishing ability), he seems to have good court vision and smarts and he's a guy that can run the break in a Mike D'Antoni offense - head up, looking to make the right play at all times. What more could you want out of a young 2? But like I said before, GS is not exactly the best trade partner now so the chances of getting this particular player are almost nil. But there are guys out there that have similar unrealized potential (Morris Almond, Rudy Fernandez), guys that have big skill to excel at this position but haven't showed anything because their teams haven't assimilated them into their system yet. If the Knicks are thinking about trades, they should be thinking about upgrading their two-guard position and if so I expect them to show some vision and guts and go after a guy that can develop into a productive rotation player if not more. Now I understand not wanting to take back a Corey Maggette. Granted that contract is not something I'd be interested in. But to obtain a building block like Belinelli I'd be willing to sacrifice some for the greater good. PF/SF on the Knicks = our best two positions by far, definite areas of depth & strength --- SG = some depth but a big area of weakness, mainly due to woeful inconsistency. Not hard to figure out what should be done next.

Paladin55 - we're basically on the same page here. I have a little more faith than most in Jerryd Bayless' overall ability & potential to eventually round out into a complete player - I guess time will tell. And considering Marbury's almost certain departure and the lack of a true starting PG after that, he would've been my selection in the draft. I'd be willing to bet the ranch that Kevin Pritchard and Portland fans feel pretty good about his overall potential right now I can tell you that. Otherwise, we're pretty much in agreement at least in identifying this team's biggest weaknesses.

Pharzeone - No need to insinuate that you were the only one who saw the Knicks down the stretch - I was right there with you and the rest of the die hards watching until the bitter end. I know what Wilson Chandler's capable of, you know, question is do you really believe Walsh and D'Antoni knew?? You're kidding youself if you think Walsh/D'Antoni really had a good read on Wilson Chandler pre-draft & before he played for them in the summer league. And I mean really, really had a good read on him. Of course (and let's hope) they looked at tape of those last 20-some-odd games to close out the season last year where he showed well and discussed internally and with the media somewhat who was salvagable on the roster and who wasn't when they both first got here (and relax with that too - do you think Walsh or D'Antoni are seriously gonna tell a guy like Mike Crispino what they really think of the roster and guys like Zach, Eddy and Steph - come on man, you know it's all gumdrops and rainbows when it comes to talking to the media), but I'm not convinced they thought of Chandler as a major building block for them in the frontcourt initially. If they did, then why draft Gallinari when they have so many other deficiences at almost every other position (off-guard, point guard, center - I just don't see Eddy Curry excelling in a D'Antoni offense, that's about as oil & vinegar as you can get, yet D'Antoni surprisingly talks positively about him when his name comes up)? And to be clear, I was a Jerryd Bayless guy months before the draft. That's the guy I wanted. That's the guy I thought fit best. So let's relax with all the "Euro-bias" nonsense OK pal? Bottom line is I want guys that can play. It doesn't matter if they're Chinese, European, Russian, American-Indian, whatever, if they can play and I verified for myself that they can play and fit our team and fill weaknesses, then those are the guys I want. No need for me to even defend Marco Belinelli - if you can't see that that kid's got excellent potential to help us and fill a dire need, then that's on you.


[Edited by - finestrg on 08-11-2008 11:03 PM]

No.

Reason: David Lee is a player. Tyrus Thomas is an athlete who'll never be a player. No more low IQ, low output players.

Posted by Pharzeone:

On the day that Walsh was announced as the new president he singled out Chandler as one of the pieces in place on Mike and the Mad Dog show when asked by Mike Francesa if the entire roster has to be blow up. He said he knows that Chandler can play because he watched him against Granger and didn't back down. That let me know that Walsh was looking at the Knick roster. I can only take D'Antoni at his word that he was aware of Chandler's talent. It makes sense because the Suns was one of the teams that arranged a workout for him before last year's draft among the Heat, Spurs and Chicago when he backed out due his "injury" Also to go to your point Walsh actually watched Chandler play as Knick president if you recall. I don't believe that 5 SL games is what he will based on decisions on. Also, you fail to realize that Walsh on draft night indicated that Gallinari was drafted as a future PF prospect since he believe that he is still growing not the SF when asked by MSG why did he draft another SF.
And why singled out Marco Belinelli who couldn't get off the bench for Nellie ball. You kill your argument by downplaying what Chandler shown in "Summer League" games while going on Belinelli's potential which was only showcased in yeah that's right summer league games.

07-08 NBA season comparison
Wilson Chandler NYK 7.3PPG, RPG 3.6, APG 0.9, 19.6 MPG, FG% 44
Marco Belinelli GSW 2.9PPG, RPG 0.4, APG 0.4, 7.3 MPG, FG% 39

Marco is a player I followed because I watch GS games on NBA League pass. Great spot up shooter but had trouble getting open. Poor shot selection and his inability to get open his is biggest problem. The guy stayed in Nellie's doghouse most of the year. Check out GS forums to get their thoughts on him. Also, GS thought so much of Belinelli that they match Azbuike's offer. I consider it Euro bias because you are ready to hand them the keys to the team while not having any NBA proof to back it up.

Alright we're really starting to lose focus here. First I made my case for not liking the Ty Thomas trade proposal (already a surplus at that position, I don't consider Larry Hughes consistent nor an upgrade for our backcourt and we'd never get the Bulls to throw in that draft pick). Next, Paladin and myself broke down the teams biggest weaknesses: (1) lack of a lead guard moving forward, (2) no consistent outside shooting & (3) no defensive presence around the basket. I've mentioned before that if I'm gonna trade David Lee, it's gonna be to sure up one of these three areas. I would've done Lee to Memphis for the 5th pick (eventually would've been turned into OJ Mayo). I would've done Lee for Raymond Felton (outside shot a little inconsistent so far but he's a young lead guard that I think has a bright future and will only get better). I would do the Lee/Malik/Collins for Crittenton/Darko trade that MS proposed, even though that'll be tough because Lee (through his agent) has already said he wants no part of Memphis. And now I mentioned flipping Lee to GS for Belinelli for an upgrade at the 2 (and I did mention that it would be difficult to pull off now that GS has no need for our biggest trading asset now that they've landed themselves Ronny Turiaf which is why I went a step further and included Chandler in the deal). And I stated why I like going after a player like Belinelli - in the midst of our rebuilding effort I think we should be targeting young players that are loaded with potential and are cost effective. Players we get young, develop and then feature for a long time to come. I guess that's just my personal preference when it comes to building a team. Belinelli, imo, fits the bill perfectly.

I'd hardly say he was in Nellie's doghouse last year. He is what he is - a 2nd-year player on a fairly stacked team (esp. in the backcourt the last 2 years) and he went through some growing pains. Hence the inconsistent playing time, the trips to the IR etc. It's expected. It comes slow at first sometimes. And this is what you're ready to base you decision on when evaluating him? No European league experience (where he played as a professional with other pros.), no summer league play the last two years where he actually got more that 7 mins. of PT to show what he can do? I don't know what to tell you my friend - you should learn to look and judge with better eyes than that. Tell me right now with a straight face that you don't think the Knicks are better off moving forward with Belinelli at the 2 than guys like Crawford, Q....Larry Hughes.... Come on man. And you make it sound like he was a problem in the locker room or something. This is a rookie playing in a new country, brand new league with different refs. that call the game totally different. If anything, Don Nelson was extremely gracious and sounded very patient when talking about this kid the last two years from what I remember reading. He never said stuff like, "I love him," & "whatever it is, we'll work it out (referring to his shooting woes)"? Ahh whatever man. Your mind's made up so that's that. IMHO, this kid's a guy that has a ton of potential and ability and he addresses one of three areas of major weakness on this club.

And I wasn't trying to turn this into a Belinelli vs. Chandler who's the better player type of thing. I like Wilson Chandler. I hope we can find a way of acquiring talent to address these weaknesses w/o dealing him. He's gonna be good. I want him here. I included him in my deal because I feel that's what it'll take to get Belinelli here and I have faith that Gallo can fill in and perform the same duties pretty well soon. I just have a hard time believing that Walsh/D'Antoni really believed before the draft that they were set at the 3 with Chandler. But that's just me. Trust me, I've heard every press conference and heard every interview this off-season - I hope that Gallo eventually turns into a PF in the NBA that has that unusual blend of shooting stroke, quickness, smarts and strength that the Knicks envision. I just know enough by now to read between the lines whenever a team official speaks to the media about the club. You're never getting the full story of what's truly on a guy's mind just listening to him for 5 mins. on Mike and the Mad Dog....

[Edited by - finestrg on 08-12-2008 1:56 PM]