[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

High Shooting Percentages, At Least Some D, Is What's Going To Make A D'Antoni Type Team
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 1 of 2  1  2 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
4949
Posts: 29378
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/25/2006
Member: #1126
USA
7/19/2008  5:18 PM
And as of right now? WE DON'T HAVE ONE!

Nope! Not even close. I did some team stat comparisons from last year, between the Suns and Knicks and found some very interesting differences. I looked at the overall final stats of each team and what I found wasn't too different overall with some of the stats, not until I got to nitty gritty of it.

Here's the overall look of the teams total stats:

SUNS
41.5 rpg
6.49 spg
13.9 turnovers

KNICKS
42.5 rpg
6.35 spg
13.8 turnovers

Now for the big differences:

Nash already made a big difference with his APG @ 11.1 -translating into a team 26.7 APG vs. a team like the Knicks with 18.7 APG.

But here's the real difference why they averaged 110 PPG:

Stoudemire lead the team with 25.2 PPG. Nothing unusual from a big scorer.

It just turns out that he was part of SEVEN players who scored in double digits 'FIVE OF THOSE PLAYERS SHOT ANYWHERE FORM .503 FG% TO .611 FG%! All with significant minutes!

FIVE SHOOTING OVER .500%!! (Granted, Shaq came in about over the halfway point, but still!)

Our own best FG% shooter on the year was Crawford at .410.

If you throw in the Suns 6.32 BPG vs. the Knicks pathetic 2.60 BPG, then it just adds to the difficult task we have ahead of us, to get this team to a level of play that is going to get us wins, playoffs and let's not even talk about winning anything yet.

There's no way this team is climbing this mountain, while still owing such a huge salary with no cap space available. Just wanted to give you guys an idea of how far we have to go. No doubt about it, we need to free the cap up before we make any major moves at this time. Thanks a lot isiah.


I'll never trust this' team again.
AUTOADVERT
4949
Posts: 29378
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/25/2006
Member: #1126
USA
7/19/2008  5:28 PM
Their overall FG% was .500 to our .439. Their overall 3PT Shooting was .393% to our .337. And their overall FT% shooting was .783 to our .727. That's an awful lot of offensive power to fill.
I'll never trust this' team again.
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
7/19/2008  8:05 PM
I don't expect that we'll match their numbers, but that may not be necessary for right now. This is going to be a process that continues for a few years. I just want to see clear improvement in all areas. At least a trend in the right direction. What I want to see is more efficiency and a much improved Point Differential. That's the stat that means the most to me other than wins and losses.

Point Diff tells a lot about the way a team is performing despite any comparison to another teams stats. Obviously we will need to shoot higher %. That's the reason for the addition of more shooters. A lot of that is the system itself. IMO the more you shoot the more confidence you gain and I think most players in Mike's system will show some improvement. Also the type of shots that are taken helps. We tended to take a lot of forced shots. Mike specializes in creating open shots before a defense often gets set. So more early offense and ball movement until we find an open shot will help.
Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
7/19/2008  8:06 PM
I find it interesting that a number of people feel that Zach and Craw and Q (cause hes been there already) would all excel under Mike D's system.

When in fact...uh, you kinda need to shoot a HIGH percentage on your jump shots to fit in. Neither of the 3 do. So how again is this going to work with this present roster?

I'm pretty sure it won't.

I will say it again though: Nate ought to have one special year since he can indeed shoot a high percentage on his deep shots.

Nobody else fits the bill although Chandler has been hitting his shots well in SL so maybe he's on his way.

Where's the rest? They don't exist.

I sure hope Mike D is into presiding over 2 years of "waiting for Isiahs garbage to go away" while we hopefully build a team he can coach in years 3-5 of his contract.
http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
7/19/2008  8:09 PM
Posted by nixluva:

I don't expect that we'll match their numbers, but that may not be necessary for right now. This is going to be a process that continues for a few years. I just want to see clear improvement in all areas. At least a trend in the right direction. What I want to see is more efficiency and a much improved Point Differential. That's the stat that means the most to me other than wins and losses.

Point Diff tells a lot about the way a team is performing despite any comparison to another teams stats. Obviously we will need to shoot higher %. That's the reason for the addition of more shooters. A lot of that is the system itself. IMO the more you shoot the more confidence you gain and I think most players in Mike's system will show some improvement. Also the type of shots that are taken helps. We tended to take a lot of forced shots. Mike specializes in creating open shots before a defense often gets set. So more early offense and ball movement until we find an open shot will help.

Bolded Part: Well, to succeed in this system, it's quite necessary!

As to the rest of the first paragraph: As I wrote in my previous reply...I hope that's the general idea that Mike came here to instill a new culture. Chances are if he's here for the long haul then he'd be lucky to be working with/having success with --- more than 3 or 4 players from todays roster - 3 years from today.

Why? These guys stink, that's why, and they'd stink even worse in a "go ahead and chuck it from deep" system.


So, well, patience is necessary. I've said it before I'll repeat: If by Feburary 2010 (post deadline) we're not well on our way to having a brilliant 2010-2011 season on the back of a game-plan-fitting roster that's looking to just be in need of a few more pieces --- then it's a failure.

Until them, well, it probably isn't going to be pretty.
http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
4949
Posts: 29378
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/25/2006
Member: #1126
USA
7/19/2008  9:19 PM
Not to mention, the Suns with all of that fire power only made it to the final four twice.
I'll never trust this' team again.
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
7/19/2008  10:19 PM
To Cosmic i would suggest that this isn't expected to be a complete turnaround in one offseason. "to succeed" is a relative term and i'm sure that Waltoni have their own ideas of what will constitute success for this 1st yr.

Some wonder why we would pick up another shooter like Roberson or a pure point like Duhon, well the idea is to make the transition to this new system smoother. Not perfect, but certainly more successful than if we didn't add anyone else who could run the plays and hit the shots needed.

To 4949, I think it has to be at least acknowledged that they were fighting in the most overloaded conference of this era. I would also add that they didn't have near the type of dominant all time player that the Spurs have had in Duncan. They haven't exactly lost to scrubs. I don't really consider the Suns talent to be overwhelming in any way. I think they maxed out their potential in many cases.
4949
Posts: 29378
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/25/2006
Member: #1126
USA
7/20/2008  12:51 AM
Posted by nixluva:


To 4949, I think it has to be at least acknowledged that they were fighting in the most overloaded conference of this era. I would also add that they didn't have near the type of dominant all time player that the Spurs have had in Duncan. They haven't exactly lost to scrubs. I don't really consider the Suns talent to be overwhelming in any way. I think they maxed out their potential in many cases.

Yes precisely. The extra note just goes to show how tough some teams and leagues can be, even if you get that much production from your team. In making the comparison with the Suns vs. Knicks overall offensive stats (and pluses) it just goes to show you how at the bottom we really been all this time. I am merely attempting to put our talents (or lack of) into perspective. I thought it was interesting what I discovered. And I use the Suns, because that is where Mike just came from.

Duhon and Roberson (if we sign him) are just micro beginnings to what D'Antoni is going to attempt to put together. At least for starters anyway. This is clearly a two to three year plan regardless of what anyone says about cap situation and any trades we might make in the next two years. And it's obvious to me that Donnie is taking baby steps to get there. I totally agree with his approach.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
Posts: 29378
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/25/2006
Member: #1126
USA
7/20/2008  12:57 AM
I also think what I and some others here are also learning is 'not to take things for granted anymore and not to assume'. If the deals were to end right this minute, I'd say we are as good as at least 30 wins so far. It's a start.
I'll never trust this' team again.
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
7/20/2008  1:10 AM
Well I believe that Mike feels he can get a lot more out of the talent we have than we have these last few seasons. It's well documented that I feel this team has grossly underachieved as well. For as much as this team has been poorly put together, still there is enough talent to have done far better.

YES there has to be a change of culture and the type of players we have been getting, still we need to see what we actually have, since I now feel that we haven't had a team coached well for the last 3 years. Mike has the desire and know how to get these players to play at a higher level and I believe that will happen. He's got time on his side, since this doesn't have to happen all at once.
Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
7/20/2008  9:11 AM
Posted by nixluva:

To Cosmic i would suggest that this isn't expected to be a complete turnaround in one offseason. "to succeed" is a relative term and i'm sure that Waltoni have their own ideas of what will constitute success for this 1st yr.

Some wonder why we would pick up another shooter like Roberson or a pure point like Duhon, well the idea is to make the transition to this new system smoother. Not perfect, but certainly more successful than if we didn't add anyone else who could run the plays and hit the shots needed.

I wouldn't expect a complete turnaround until a lot of these guys are long gone. I expect a "complete turnaround" to be the 2010-2011 season. However I would also expect to see a pretty good team coming together around February of 2010 - maybe making a push to sneak into the 2010 playoffs at that.

What I am hinting at is that Mike D doesn't come here and suddenly Craw, Q, Zach and everyone else become all they can be and all everyone wants them to be. It's just not happening. Picking up Roberson/Duhon won't change that. The fact that he will instill a new culture won't change that. These players are what they are: Not very good. No coach will change that. For example: Mike might be able to tone down Crawford a bit to make him slightly more efficient - but - Crawford is still not a good player and that's not changing.

So Mike better be in it for the long haul - and Walsh better understand that no matter how patient he wants to be: These players have to go. If you want to ride out contracts - you still have to get rid of the clowns and swap them out for not necessarily BETTER players but less damaging players.

http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
4949
Posts: 29378
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/25/2006
Member: #1126
USA
7/24/2008  1:42 PM
Here it is again.
I'll never trust this' team again.
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
7/24/2008  1:52 PM
Don't you think Mike knows that he doesn't have all the horses he needs? Don't you think Walsh knows that he's got to change this roster to make a real contender? I mean what exactly is the issue here? Is it about recognition of the lameness of the team as it is currently? Well DUH! Who doesn't already know this.

The thing is that you have to start somewhere and we won't likely fix everything all at once in some trade, like some suggest. I do feel that we should expect this team to be improved over the last few years. I think the problem wasn't just the roster, but the style and coaching as well. To be sure We had and still have a poorly matched team. Fat Boys and gazelles that just don't make sense together. Guess who's likely to be sent away?

FAT BOYS!!!
4949
Posts: 29378
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/25/2006
Member: #1126
USA
7/24/2008  2:06 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Don't you think Mike knows that he doesn't have all the horses he needs? Don't you think Walsh knows that he's got to change this roster to make a real contender? I mean what exactly is the issue here? Is it about recognition of the lameness of the team as it is currently? Well DUH! Who doesn't already know this.

The thing is that you have to start somewhere and we won't likely fix everything all at once in some trade, like some suggest. I do feel that we should expect this team to be improved over the last few years. I think the problem wasn't just the roster, but the style and coaching as well. To be sure We had and still have a poorly matched team. Fat Boys and gazelles that just don't make sense together. Guess who's likely to be sent away?

FAT BOYS!!!

Well yeah. I do know this. I was trying to show people that it's not all Nash that was the success. Making clear that we have a long way to go wasn't exactly the point I was making. Just exactly what made' the Suns as good as they were is all um saying. I thought it was interesting, if' we're going to have a D'Antoni type team.
I'll never trust this' team again.
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
7/24/2008  2:20 PM
Posted by Cosmic:

I find it interesting that a number of people feel that Zach and Craw and Q (cause hes been there already) would all excel under Mike D's system.

When in fact...uh, you kinda need to shoot a HIGH percentage on your jump shots to fit in. Neither of the 3 do. So how again is this going to work with this present roster?

I'm pretty sure it won't.

I will say it again though: Nate ought to have one special year since he can indeed shoot a high percentage on his deep shots.

Nobody else fits the bill although Chandler has been hitting his shots well in SL so maybe he's on his way.

Where's the rest? They don't exist.

I sure hope Mike D is into presiding over 2 years of "waiting for Isiahs garbage to go away" while we hopefully build a team he can coach in years 3-5 of his contract.
I think the hope is that some of these guys will improve their FG% because the shot selection will improve and so will the looks. Is Crawford a bad shooter or does he take terrible shots? Same with Zach. When the ball moves and finds an open Crawford for a jumper (you might have to go back a couple years for this) I would say Jamal knocks that down with a high %.

We simply had no offense last year aside from one on one play.

Now Crawford will never have a great shooting % because he's too streaky and those 2-12 nights he will have at times will ensure he probably never shoots higher than 44. But he is a skilled offensive player and I think he can be a part of a winning basketball team.

You see it fairly often where guys go to a system that suits them and their games appear to really improve.

I am not saying this will definatly happen, but I think Zach and Crawford have a coach that will put them in good positions on offense. What happens after that is up to them isnt it?

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Cosmic
Posts: 26570
Alba Posts: 27
Joined: 3/17/2006
Member: #1115
USA
7/24/2008  2:56 PM
I can understand that POV, Mike. In relation to last season I more than agree we had no offense because Isiah really gave up as soon as he lost the trial - I think that was more than evident.

As to Crawford, the thing is it would seem to be so simple. His pet move is always there but he uses it as a primary move. If he were to take two of those crossover-then-18-foot-fadeaways per game and instead replace them with two drives to the hoop he probably would end up shooting 43% which in turn would be much more acceptable. He'd also get to the line at least 2 more times per game someplace he excels. I don't ever expect him to be a defender but again clear effort would be nice.

I look at Crawford as a good kid with a good family and a somewhat coachable personality. Will Mike D be the charm to make Crawford as good as he can be? Maybe.

Yet you must understand, if you don't already, I'm done with any true optimism (In the sense of "yeah, we're going to be good, just you watch!") I'm more in the boat of "Well, show me...just...show me.".

Even so as I've said I'm giving the new regime it's chance. I'm into giving the players a chance to respond to Mike D.

I will say though, happy and healthy and clicking, this roster is still looking at what.. 38-40 wins and an 8th seed? Low ceiling and I think we all know changes must be made to elevate the potential ceiling.

Could Crawford be a keeper in all of this? Perhaps...but I don't know many players who ever grew substantially in the 9th season.

As for all the player raising their FG%? Well, a better system does afford better shots so we'll see but I don't expect anything epic - such as career years from all. Just a return to averages is probably in the offing and again - that doesnt afford the highest ceiling of potential in the world.

We know who we got here, we know what their best is, and I'm pretty sure I (we) know what them all playing at their best would bring: Not all that much.

Yet, I digress, this is all about improvement of atmosphere, character, and play than it is hitting any home runs. I look for the latter no sooner than 2010/2011 season.
http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
7/24/2008  3:40 PM
Cosmic.. totally agree on all points. I do not believe in this roster or its players. I think there is some talent but have no idea if it can be molded into winning basketball. I single out Crawford because like you mentioned he's (seems) coachable and is a good kid. I think Zach is sick of losing and wants to play hard. I assume Curry will be overweight and useless. I hope Chandler, Gallo and Nate will be as good under Mike D that I think they can be... but I am waiting to see.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
4949
Posts: 29378
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/25/2006
Member: #1126
USA
7/24/2008  4:50 PM
I think we're going to see who can handle it and who can't when all is said and done by the end of next season. We'll have some solid answers on what direction to take next. And in the process, I think we are going to find a couple players who can really respond to this system. So I have high hopes again for this team to develop. At least a part of it anyway.

I'd be willing to give isiah some points if any of his picks end up thriving this next season.
I'll never trust this' team again.
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
7/24/2008  6:13 PM
Isiah's one good skill was in identifying talent. That doesn't mean it translated into making the right picks all the time, but the guys he took have some talent. I just think that Mike is so far a superior coach and strategist that it will make a difference. In addition to the fact that his style will be a good fit for some of our best players, who have always shown a preference for playing faster all along. There's clearly an up tick to Nate, Jamal, Chan, Lee, Balk, Gallo etc. playing faster and with a plan that creates open shots far more often.

The FG % should go up if the right guys are taking the right shots, which I believe Mike will make happen.
Pharzeone
Posts: 32183
Alba Posts: 14
Joined: 2/11/2005
Member: #871
7/24/2008  6:52 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Isiah's one good skill was in identifying talent. That doesn't mean it translated into making the right picks all the time, but the guys he took have some talent. I just think that Mike is so far a superior coach and strategist that it will make a difference. In addition to the fact that his style will be a good fit for some of our best players, who have always shown a preference for playing faster all along. There's clearly an up tick to Nate, Jamal, Chan, Lee, Balk, Gallo etc. playing faster and with a plan that creates open shots far more often.

The FG % should go up if the right guys are taking the right shots, which I believe Mike will make happen.

Which came first the chicken or the egg. Did Mike D' offense make the Suns a winning team or did the player Steve Nash. That is what coach is facing this season. Like DJ pointed out, Riley didn't really become Riley until he was able to prove he can win outside of LA playing a style of basketball that was different than what he ran in LA with inferior talent. This is a telling year for D'Antoni and going forward. The last season, he didn't have Nash running his offense he finished with one of the Suns worst records. Marbury and Hardaway were traded within two months of the season and Stoudamire was injured so it is fair to give him a pass. I think he has pieces here to begin the winning process but it is still a work in progress. I hope as a Knick fan that it all works out.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Page 1 of 2  1  2 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
High Shooting Percentages, At Least Some D, Is What's Going To Make A D'Antoni Type Team
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy