Posted by technomaster:

It's not quite a done deal yet, but assuming it does, here's how this makes the Knicks a better team:

1) Sprewell has been saved from the NY Media.
No more controversy. No more Sprewell late for games, practices, boat fights, broken hands. No more Sprewell out of position, playing his heart out only to lose--- let's not feel sad for Spree, Sprewell fans. He's in a far better place, where he can play his natural position alongside one of the top 5 players in the game. He'll still have a shooter on the wing (Wally), and he'll have the benefit of a true shotblocker (Olowokandi) behind him. Not only that, he'll have a real PG (Sam Cassell) running the show. I am happy for Sprewell.

I don't think Spree was fazed at all by the media. If anything, his lawsuit against that rag of a paper (the NY Post) may have taught them to back up what they say before they make slanderous comments.
As for the late practices and whatnot, even JVG said that was blown out of proportion by the media.

2) Van Horn is young and still has upside.
Born on 10/23/75, he's only 27. A few years ago, people were arguing that the Nets got the best player in the draft. He was his generation's next Larry Bird, that is until Nowitzki came along.:) Perhaps his all around game will blossom as a Knick. (I hope)

Yeah he's younger, but we need players who can play some D. Where is this guy's D? We already have Allan Houston- why do we need another?

3) Van Horn is TALL...
His height is his biggest asset. At 6'10", he can play both forward positions. His presence IMMEDIATELY helps our lineup by adding size. He'll draw attention away from our shortie PFs ('Spoon, Harrington, Sweetney, and Thomas), allowing them to be more effective. A starting line up of Thomas / KVH / Sweetney isn't that disrespectful. A return of McDyess, tho doubtful, would give us a pretty imposing starting lineup.

Once again, him being a defensive liability comes into play here. He may draw defenders away from those guys (who actually aren't exactly offensive powerhouses), but opposing teams' scorers are gonna have a field day on us. That is alot more inviting to opposing teams than imposing.

4) He can shoot.
Last year he shot 37% from behind the arc... and an excellent 48% from the field. The environment in Philly wasn't that different from NY, so 16ppg/8rpg shouldn't be a stretch. He'll give the Knicks another threat from anywhere on the floor.

Again, we already have Allan Houston. How many 3's are we supposed to chuck up?? This cat will not be any kind of threat on the inside. Scott LayDown wants to turn this team into the Mavs.

5) He's already had it with the local media.
The NY area press won't surprise him. This is it folks. He knows the town.

After how he caught hell from the media when the nets got swept ouuta the finals in '02, he'd better be ready for that treatment on a consistent basis.

As far as winners and losers, I think everyone wins. It's surprising (to me, anyway) that all 4 of these players have matching salaries!

Knicks: Get young, athletic, tall forward.
And we get significantly weaker on defense.

T-Wolves: get "all-star" caliber swingman to complement revamped lineup-- and can get out of his contract after another season)
That's the cap room the Knicks needed to hold onto.

Sixers: Hrm. Come to think of it, I'm scratching my head over this one. First they sign the small Kenny Thomas... now they're going for BigDog?

Atlanta: They lose a decent player... but have created an owner-friendly environment. This could make the Hawks profitable.

[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 07/22/2003 20:40:08]

Posted by knicksbb10:

Laydown and Chaney stressed the need to go bigger which i think they accomplished very well with the additions of the 3 rookies and VAn Horn. Hey, at least we improve at the 3 with the rebounding..

Posted by technomaster:

I don't think swapping Sprewell/KVH hurts too much defensively. Let's put it this way--- throw in Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Jamal Mashburn, T-Mac or just about any big SF at the Knicks, and you tell me who'll they worry about more, a 6'10" athletic defender or a 6'5" super-quick defender.

Losing our best defender/help defender for an "athletic(LMAO!!!!)" defensive liability not hurting too much?? Not if we are dead serious about hitting the lottery. Outside of that, it's a problem bigger than Van Horn's 6'10" frame. BTW, none of those guys you mentioned would even think of Van Horn let alone worry about him. Spree has stuck all those cats much more effectively than KVH can ever dream to.

KVH, while an average defender, will limit post-up opportunities by virtue of his height. He might get burned if their outside shots are on, but it will also limit these guys from distributing the post and giving there teams inside-outside games. From a team defense standpoint, if KVH stands in the paint with his arms straight up, it's more of a shotblocking threat than any Knick opponent experienced last year.

Oh come on. Since when is KEITH VAN HORN any kind of defensive stopper?? Players will just as soon jump over his *** the way Vince Carter did to Fred Weis. All of a sudden cats are gonna be too intimidated to post him up? LOL I would rather put Lampe (or Vranes, for that matter) in the paint with his arms straight up for shotblocking. KVH is not a shot-blocker! Man, you are reaching on that one.

Sprewell, a one time phenomenal defender, still could not stop these guys from shooting over him on the outside... and stood no shot of stopping them if they posted him up. If you want a wing defender, I'd argue that Shandon Anderson is at least as good a defender as Sprewell at this stage of the game.

As much as you try to play down Spree's defensive abilities, he's still the best defender and help defender on the team. It is not at all like those cats you named just scored at will on Spree all day, not even close. More often than not, SPree held scorers below their average. If we had the frontcourt size and help defense @ the 4 and 5 that we are supposed to have, Spree getting posted up would not be an issue. As for Shandon Anderson, if you're gonna bring him up, then why bother getting KVH at all?

On offense, give Van Horn all of the same shots you'd give to Sprewell. He'll probably shoot better and draw more double teams because of his size and ability to score from anywhere on the floor. You can expect shots that end in free throws than with Sprewell and his fadeaways.

OK, now factor in the massive defensive liability that this guy is. The scorers that Spree would usually guard would have reels of highlights on KVH. Besides the possibility of getting in foul trouble, he'll get torched night in, night out on the Knicks.


Knick fans seem obsessed with 1) playing defense (when the team can't score) and 2) getting under the cap.

Knick fans are concerned about defense and the cap because they are both PROBLEMS that must be addressed. If only Scott LayDown was as "obsessed"(LOL)...

Defense can be taught. Height is god-given.

If KVH has been in the league this long and didn't play D, and even in college was far from the defensive specialist some of us seem to wish he was, how can anyone in their right mind think that being on the Knicks is gonna magically make him into one? LOL all too funny... Five inches just ain't worth cutting our throats.

Getting under the cap, well, I don't think fans should lose too much sleep over it. What do you want to do, lose Sprewell for nothing at the end of next season? Does that really make any sense for the team? Are you a believer in building through the draft?

It's not about losing sleep, it's about resolving the problem. The Knicks ae more capped-out than anyone in the NBA yet have been shut outta the playoffs for 2 years? You can call it an "obsession" till you're blue in the face, but it is too obvious a problem for those of us who care aboput our team to simply overlook. This is what chage this deal makes to our cap, as quoted from the NY Daily News:

"The Knicks would also be adding a bigger contract to their bloated payroll. Sprewell has two years remaining on his contract that will pay him $26 million. Van Horn is scheduled to make $43 million over the next three years."

It's not about getting nothing for Spree, but getting KVH is not far from it. We are the ones getting jerked in this deal (a la LayDown). As for building via the draft, it's possible, but much more realistic if Scott LayDown got the hell outta here.

Here's a positive spin. We've just traded Sprewell for what amounts to a #2 overall draft pick. Woo hoo! (Yeah, remember we traded Mase for a #1 overall draft pick?!)

Now who are we gonna trade KVH for next year when we get the #1 overall pick in the 2004 draft? Whoever we get, hopefully he won't be a bust like Van Horn turned out to be.

Posted by sebstar:

Heh, we already have our sights focused on the 2004 draft...

Enough with the Van Horn is younger arguments...He's not better than Spree, and he isn't going to get better. Unless you want to believe that his 6 yrs in the league was just a "phase"...Sorry, he is not morphing.. There has got to be some sort of bonus in Layden's contract for aquiring boring soft jump shooters, thats our whole team!

Othella Sweetney is not going to help with his 5 inch vertical, and Lampe if he ever puts in a Knick uni is a couple of years away at least.

Van Horn got run out of two towns in the past two years...So of course Layden scrambles and runs out of breath trying to get the guy that teams would cut off a finger to get rid of..Unreal

With the way things are going, Greg Ostratag can't be far behind.

Will I ever see an athletic dunker in a NY uniform before I die? and I am only reaching my 20's

Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

And KVH can't Dee up on a ham sandwich! We can trade for the Tin Man and have more heart on this team.

WHAT!

Cats trying to man up around Keith Van Horn??. Too damn funny.

Posted by nwny:

Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

And KVH can't Dee up on a ham sandwich! We can trade for the Tin Man and have more heart on this team.

WHAT!

Cats trying to man up around Keith Van Horn??. Too damn funny.

Why don't you answer Tech's question? What's a fair trade for Spree? Use real GM, post the trade number, and make the agruement why team X would want Spree.

I didn't see that question before, nwny. It was on the previous page.