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raven
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4/30/2008  6:59 AM
Weird, the Knicks have suffered from the ''we need to get names on the roster'' syndrom for like 5 years...

And now, you see Dallas and Phoenix getting killed the same way.

Dallas had Harris, a young and promising PG that was absolutly not the source of their issues. They bring Kidd 5 years too late and destroy everything they tried to build.

Phoenix had a magical offense. Sound, quick, killing people with a rain of shoots and fastbreaks. Marion was a x-factor there, doing all the dirty work few ppl even considered, rebounding and finishing on same actions. Heck, they bring O'neal that was already a joke in the finals 3 years ago, and killed their offense, their rythm.

The suns lost their identity and a series that could have been the best one for years to come.

Starphuking...
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Nalod
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4/30/2008  9:04 AM
I think Dallas really messed up with Kidd but bringing him in at the deadline was not optimal and Dallas might not have made the playoffs without him.

The west is really good and they have not much improved since they went to the finals.

I am a fan of the suns and they are an interesting story. Marion is a hell of an athlete but is very selfish and its been reported a problem in the lockerroom. They have done a great job keeping things within the team. Shaq is a problem with his late free throws. The Suns were blown out of only one game and have been in 3 of the games right until the end.

This is not your typical first round bounce.

I was impressed with Shaqs revival to a degree and his presence really opened up things for Amare who took off with him in the lineup. Diaw seemed to find himself this season now that he was splitting duty with Grant Hill.

With Shaq you have some coaching to do and its clear while D'Antoni is a hell of a coach his style does not carry thru the playoffs and closing out games is often won from the bench. Pop made him his B!tch.

Also Tony Parker really has become one of the best guards in the league very quietly. Not a pass first point, but he gets it done!

Kudos to the spurs, they really played well and one might just say the BEAT the suns rather than the suns JUST lost.
CrushAlot
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5/1/2008  9:31 PM
I think when you consider that Dallas gave up a first rounder in 2010 in addition to Harris, Diop, and Hassell for a 34+ Kidd it was a mistake. Kidd has made a remarkable recovery from micro fracture surgery but when you consider his age in addition to this I don't think there is anyway that you make that trade. I also think the coach knew that it wasn't worth it and would spoil what they had for the present and now the future. My advice to other gm/owners is to not trade with Rod Thorn. He always seems to make the right move, even when he signed Mikki Moore. It stinks Avery had to take the fall for the owner/gm in this situation. I also agree that Phoenix messed up but Marion was beginning to complain about his contract. That being said, all of the little things he did including covering Nash's man on defense, were sorely missed. Both of these trades would have been fine five years ago. They don't make sense now.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
CrushAlot
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5/1/2008  9:36 PM
Nets got 2 first round picks in the deal and cash.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
TheGame
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5/2/2008  2:12 AM
The Kidd deal was absolutely moronic. Harris is a hell of a pg and I would have had doubts about trading him straight up for Kidd. And I certainly would not have given up my best defensive center and a first round pick in addition to Harris for a 34 year old Kidd. A 28 year old Kidd might be worth it, but Kidd is too old now to keep up with the Parkers and Pauls of the NBA.

The Shaq trade might eventually work out for the Suns. Shaq will probably be motivated to win one more championship and prove the Suns right in believing in him. They need to make a few moves, but I can see the Suns winning it all next year. The bottomline is that you cannot teach size and even an old Shaq is still going to force double teams and alter shots in the paint.

[Edited by - thegame on 02-05-2008 02:13]

[Edited by - thegame on 02-05-2008 02:14]
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codeunknown
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5/2/2008  3:55 AM
I called the impending Suns disaster the moment the trade happened. Their offense was predicated on having four 3 point shooters on the court at all times, forcing opposing shot-blockers out to the arc, and creating a ton of room for Nash to operate on pick and rolls. In addition, they had 2 premier perimeter defenders, Bell and Marion, who could mask Nash's inadequacies. Now, they're just really an ordinary team without particularly impressive defense or offense.

Shaq was a hype move - he sucked at guarding Duncan in his prime and he's even more incompetent now. Every time Duncan faces up, the Spurs get an automatic 2. Sometimes 3. Shaq has always been a liability on pick and roll defense, a liability at the free throw line and a liability in transition. Those aspects of his game have gotten even worse over the past 5 years and whatever is left of his post-up game comes with the 20% free throw disclaimer. The end result is that Nash gets destroyed by Parker, who otherise would have drawn Marion, while Shaq is manhandled by Duncan.

The team is dead in the water for the next few seasons. Keeping KT and not trading for Shaq would have extended their window of opportunity; now, I think they almost have to get value for both Nash and Shaq in the offseason. Kerr made a very dumb move and, if he gets rid of D'Antoni, they should hang him out to dry pretty quickly in Phoenix.
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TheGame
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5/2/2008  4:05 AM
Posted by codeunknown:

I called the impending Suns disaster the moment the trade happened. Their offense was predicated on having four 3 point shooters on the court at all times, forcing opposing shot-blockers out to the arc, and creating a ton of room for Nash to operate on pick and rolls. In addition, they had 2 premier perimeter defenders, Bell and Marion, who could mask Nash's inadequacies. Now, they're just really an ordinary team without particularly impressive defense or offense.

Shaq was a hype move - he sucked at guarding Duncan in his prime and he's even more incompetent now. Every time Duncan faces up, the Spurs get an automatic 2. Sometimes 3. Shaq has always been a liability on pick and roll defense, a liability at the free throw line and a liability in transition. Those aspects of his game have gotten even worse over the past 5 years and whatever is left of his post-up game comes with the 20% free throw disclaimer. The end result is that Nash gets destroyed by Parker, who otherise would have drawn Marion, while Shaq is manhandled by Duncan.

The team is dead in the water for the next few seasons. Keeping KT and not trading for Shaq would have extended their window of opportunity; now, I think they almost have to get value for both Nash and Shaq in the offseason. Kerr made a very dumb move and, if he gets rid of D'Antoni, they should hang him out to dry pretty quickly in Phoenix.

I think that cutting Thomas was the biggest mistake. Thomas was killing the Suns with his defense and shooting. Spurs really lacked that experienced veteran PF until they got Thomas (IMO Horry is pretty much done other than spot minutes and their other PFs are younger less experienced guys).
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Ira
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5/2/2008  5:13 AM
Posted by CrushAlot:

I think when you consider that Dallas gave up a first rounder in 2010 in addition to Harris, Diop, and Hassell for a 34+ Kidd it was a mistake. Kidd has made a remarkable recovery from micro fracture surgery but when you consider his age in addition to this I don't think there is anyway that you make that trade. I also think the coach knew that it wasn't worth it and would spoil what they had for the present and now the future. My advice to other gm/owners is to not trade with Rod Thorn. He always seems to make the right move, even when he signed Mikki Moore. It stinks Avery had to take the fall for the owner/gm in this situation. I also agree that Phoenix messed up but Marion was beginning to complain about his contract. That being said, all of the little things he did including covering Nash's man on defense, were sorely missed. Both of these trades would have been fine five years ago. They don't make sense now.

That's a good point about Thorn. He doesn't make many trades, but the ones he makes work out for his team.
EnySpree
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5/2/2008  9:58 AM
Its starphuching gone wrong.......cuz Boston did it right and look what happened to them.
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crzymdups
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5/2/2008  10:08 AM
Posted by EnySpree:

Its starphuching gone wrong.......cuz Boston did it right and look what happened to them.

let's see if boston gets out of the first round before we annoint them anything. they're aren't winning a ring, i don't think.
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EnySpree
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5/2/2008  11:23 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by EnySpree:

Its starphuching gone wrong.......cuz Boston did it right and look what happened to them.

let's see if boston gets out of the first round before we annoint them anything. they're aren't winning a ring, i don't think.

They are a arrogant bunch.....Still the season was a sucsess. They just ran into an Atlanta team that aint going down without a fight. I can't see them losing a series in the East.
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crzymdups
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5/2/2008  11:36 AM
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by EnySpree:

Its starphuching gone wrong.......cuz Boston did it right and look what happened to them.

let's see if boston gets out of the first round before we annoint them anything. they're aren't winning a ring, i don't think.

They are a arrogant bunch.....Still the season was a sucsess. They just ran into an Atlanta team that aint going down without a fight. I can't see them losing a series in the East.

I dunno, the Cavs present problems for them (Lebron is the best player in the series and who guards him?) and the Pistons are awake again.

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Nalod
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5/2/2008  11:40 AM
Paul Pierce underpressure could drag them down.

Hard to bet against them. Ray and KG should keep Pierces B!tch tendancies under check.
EnySpree
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5/2/2008  11:43 AM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by EnySpree:

Its starphuching gone wrong.......cuz Boston did it right and look what happened to them.

let's see if boston gets out of the first round before we annoint them anything. they're aren't winning a ring, i don't think.

They are a arrogant bunch.....Still the season was a sucsess. They just ran into an Atlanta team that aint going down without a fight. I can't see them losing a series in the East.

I dunno, the Cavs present problems for them (Lebron is the best player in the series and who guards him?) and the Pistons are awake again.

Pistons keep messing around man....that pisses me off. They still look good and are looking alot like the Isiah Pistons right now at least roster wise all built around the backcourt with a deep muscular front court......The Cavs got Lebron, but the C's will be all in his face poppin ****. That should be entertaining if they meet.

Anyway, starphuching can work....in the knicks case? total retardation. Pheonix starphuched at the wrong time. They changed the whole game plan mid-season....thats bull****...they didn't get better, they actually took 2 steps back. Waste......they have a chance to make a lateral trade along with coaching changes to reinvent the wheel so to speak.....

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crzymdups
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5/2/2008  11:43 AM
Posted by Nalod:

Paul Pierce underpressure could drag them down.

Hard to bet against them. Ray and KG should keep Pierces B!tch tendancies under check.

I've never had much faith in KG. I love his hustle, but he really has no go-to moves in the post so he doesn't always look to dominate in crunch time. they have pierce for crunch time, but supposedly his back is bothering him and ray allen is looking older and older. they are certainly the favorite, but i dunno, something about them leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

i'll be interested to see if they can close out atlanta easily tonight or if atlanta takes them to 7.
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MS
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5/2/2008  4:11 PM
The Suns made two mistakes not resigning Joe Johnson for cheap and getting rid of Kurt Thomas. Marion was becoming a problem and bitching and moaning all while getting 16 million a year, and he couldn't be move overated.

Barbosa sucked this year, hill went down, etc it wasn't the trade that killed the sun, its there insistence not to add a player with the midlevel burn out there starters or add someone in the draft, it catches up with them. Nash needs a backup that can reduce his minutes to 30 a game so he is fresh.

The Suns have made a number of terrible moves over the past couple of years and the Shaq trade was not one of them
islesfan
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5/2/2008  4:31 PM
I didn't dislike the Suns trade when it happened. I understood why they felt they had to do it and I understood when people hated it. Honestly, I don't think it was as big of a failure as people are making it out to be.

They had a rough time adjusting to playing with Shaq and changing how they ran their offense but they finished the season strong. It all came down to game 1 of their series with the Spurs. They win that game and everything changes. Maybe the Spurs still win but it's a completely different series and that trade gets looked at in a different light.

I agree with MS, letting Joe Johnson and Kurt Thomas go, in addition to constantly selling their 1st rd picks, were worse moves.

The Kidd trade didn't make sense from day 1. I thought the Mavs lucked out when their initial trade was rejected by the league. But they only managed to screw it up even more after getting a second chance.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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