This is in light of conversation from another thread looking back wow I SAY UGH has truly been EPICALLY ATROCIOUS moreso than Layden.


This is to debunk any notion iyamwutiam has brought to the table recently.



Easily the worst poster on this board let's go back to and clean this up some







When Layden took over, the team came off a finals appearance during the lockout season 1998-1999 finished 27-23=winning record


The following yr the team went to the ECF vs the Pacers in 1999-2000 finished that season 50-32=winning record


The following yr the team went to the playoffs lost first round to the Raptors 3-2 finished that season 48-34=winning record


Now if they would have beat the Raptors(5gm series are very risky hence Stern switched the format to assure best team has the best chance to win) who knows how far that team would have went....... especially if LJ and Camby were healthier players.

Let's look at who we had and what some players did

Game 1 http://www.nba.com/games/20010422/TORNYK/boxscore.html?nav=ArticleList Huge Game by Camby although not healthy and Houston
Game 2 http://www.nba.com/games/20010426/TORNYK/boxscore.html?nav=ArticleList Huge game by Kurt
Game 3 http://www.nba.com/games/20010429/NYKTOR/boxscore.html?nav=ArticleList Huge game by Houston
Game 4 http://www.nba.com/games/20010502/NYKTOR/boxscore.html?nav=ArticleList Huge game by Houston and Sprewell
Game 5 http://www.nba.com/games/20010504/TORNYK/boxscore.html?nav=ArticleList Huge game by Sprewell and Thomas

Marcus Camby played 63gms during the 2000-2001
Allan Houston played 78 games during the 2000-2001 season http://www.nba.com/playerfile/allan_houston/career_stats.html had a steady season but managed to score over 20ppg and shoot over 50% from the field and from the 3pt line in the playoffs, going into his FA season. He was also a favorite of Dolan's
Kurt Thomas very solid season but even better playoff stats http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kurt_thomas/career_stats.html
Latrell Sprewell very solid season and maintained his play in the playoffs
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/latrell_sprewell/career_stats.html
Mark Jackson
Charlie Ward
Glen Rice played well as a role player in the playoffs
Othella Harrington
Felton Spencer DNP
Larry Johnson DNP
Rick Brunson DNP
Travis Knight DNP


Obviously Houston deserved high consideration for a new contract from us. Him being entitled to Max money was a touch and go situation but a strong case to give him Max Money could be made and we did. He played 2 full seasons after his max contract was given, starting every game but 5. His knees didn't starting giving way until the end of the 2002-2003 season. The issue in the meantime was what to do with Camby, Jackson, and Rice. Layden chose to trade Camby, Rice, and Jackson into Mcdyess, Anderson, and Eisley which proved to be bad but he gambled on proven players, while taking on Eisley and Anderson in their 2nd and 1rst yr respectively it totaled about $75mil in total contract value. He turned Spree into KVH taking on an additional yr Dolan wanted Spree gone at the time. Not a devastating trade considering his contract expired the following yr which would have been within I SAY UGH'S first 2yrs here as a GM. Kurt's extension was par for the course nothing to cry about.

Now I'm about to expose you for the FRAUD Poster you are. Here is what our cap situation looked like in 2002-2003 and look at the expirings I SAY UGH had coming to him within 2yrs of being on the job


New York Knicks
Player 2002-03 salary Total contract Signed through
AH $14,343,750 7-yr; 100.41M 2006-07
AM $12,600,000 6-yr; 67.5M 2003-04(expiring)
LS $11,937,500 5-yr ;61.9M 2003-04 (p)(expiring)
SA $6,100,000 6-yr; 42.0M 2006-07
CW $5,570,000 6-yr; 28.0M + 2002-03 (p)
HE $5,312,500 7-yr; 41.0M 2005-06 (t)(expiring within 2yrs of being GM)
CW $4,991,800 5-yr; 27.23M 2005-06(expiring within 2yrs of being GM)
KT $4,903,750 3-yr; 13.0M 2003-04 (t)(expiring)
TK $4,000,000 7-yr; 22.0M 2003-04(expiring)
OH $2,700,000 7-yr; 17.33M 2004-05(expiring)
MD $1,400,000 2-yr; 3.00M 2003-04(expiring)
FW $832,560 4-yr; 4.40M 2004-05 (t)(expiring within 2yrs of being GM)
MP $637,435 1-yr; 637,435 2002-03(gone by the time hired)
LN $587,435 1-yr; 587,435 2002-03(gone by the time hired)
LP $587,435 2-yr; 1.05M 2002-03(gone by the time hired)
Others $16,510,000
Total $93,014,165


So by the 2005-2006 season in essence what I SAY UGH'S looking at is only having Houston and Anderson salary on the books if he allows the rest of the contracts to expire. This is even factoring the Sprewell/KVH trade and the signing of Motumbo that happended the summer/fall prior to his hiring. Now you brought up the fact Layden expanded the cap exponentially compounding it double with the signing/trading and extending of Thomas/Eisley/Dyess/Anderson. Eisley's contract was a Team Option come 2005-2006 season so he could have been off the books well before 2006-2007. Well what did I SAY UGH do?


Here's the NBA Salary cap situation back when Layden took over, Knicks salary already at $69.5mil when he did


1998-99 $30.0 million
1999-00 $34.0 million(under Layden $71,340,801)difference=-$37mil
2000-01 $35.5 million(under Layden $73,556,256)difference=-$37.5mil
2001-02 $42.5 million(under Layden $85,457,889)difference=-$42.5mil
2002-03 $40.271 million(under Layden $93,452,376)difference=-$53mil
2003-04 $43.84 million(under I SAY UGH $89,444,816)difference=-$46mil
2004-05 $43.87 million(under I SAY UGH $102,442,544)difference=-$59mil
2005-06 $49.5 million(under I SAY UGH $126,610,272)difference=-$76mil
2006-07 $53.135 million(under I SAY UGH $117,024,192)difference=-$64mil
2007-08 $55.630 million(under I SAY UGH $88,877,161)difference=-$33mil


Layden instead of letting the Knicks team fade under a supposed mandate from Dolan and impatient fan base to make the playoffs at all cost took our cap of $69.5mil and peaked out at $93mil. You're faulting him for taking on/adding approximately $90mil of unecessary contract value in Thomas, Dyess, Eisley, and Anderson.

Well what did Thomas do? Keep in mind he saw Layden's team was going nowhere you know even you yourself said were far away from championship material producing 2 back-to-back losing seasons. Oh he tries to resuscitate Layden's roster, with his first move he trades for Marbury and Penny Hardaway, Marbury recently receiving a 4yr/$86mil dollar extension from PHX. And this was after he saw the team going nowhere that season but because the East was so bad he reasoned I can perform works greater than Jesus producing a losing season while backing into the Playoffs end result getting swept. So just with one move and his first major move mind you he adds almost $90mil in total contract value. Now Penny and Mcdyess essentially canceled each other out but no this FUCHWAD turns Penny into Steve Francis who was in the 3rd of a near $90mil dollar contract which expired in 2008-2009 another $40+ mil in total contract value he adds. So far and additional $130mil in total contracts for no reason whatsoever.

Then he simultaneously adds

Mo Taylor 2nd yr of a $48mil contract
Crawford new 7yr $56mil contract
Q 2nd yr of a $44mil contract
James and/or Curry new 5yr $30mil contract and a new 6yr $56mil contract
Jalen 6th yr of a $93mil contract
Jeffries new 5yr $30mil contract with trade kicker
Randolph 3rd yr of a $90mil contract


I'll allow Malik as a valid addition but the others were all totally unnecessary and complete bombs. Yet somehow you're trying to give credit to I SAY UGH for possibly having a more manageable cap 2yrs from now as if by design. You have absolutely no idea what our cap situation will be like. If we follow the current trend the cap will be about $61-63mil by 2010/2011. If Curry and Jeffries exercise their options we'll have $46mil on the books totaling 4 players on the roster if no moves are made in between. We'll add $20mil easily in salary with picks and extensions alone.


Now we're at the point where we're closer than ever, having a more manageable cap situation. So is I SAY UGH no longer under a mandate to make the playoffs or win as many games as possible? If he isn't then why has he gone on record earlier in the yr stating we weren't that far from making the playoffs and actually are close to being a championship team. Recently informing us he hasn't played the rookies as much because we're trying to win basketball games. If he is under a mandate still wouldn't that suggest our cap situation 2yrs from now will be in jeopardy?



[Edited by - TrueBlue on 02-18-2008 9:07 PM]

great post, and it seems like you put a lot of time into this.. boy, I tell you this iyamwutiam guy must have gotten under your skin.. LOL...

I don't see how you can defend Layden, the man who signed:

Clarence Weatherspoon
Howard Eisley
Moochie Norris
Keith Van Horn
Michael Sweetney
Antonio McDyess
Stephon Marbury
Tim Thomas
Mo Taylor
Steve Francis
Jalen Rose
Jerome James
Eddy Curry
Zach Randolph
Etc.

And I will never forgive Layden for subjecting this team to Larry Brown!

Posted by BasketballJones:

I don't see how you can defend Layden, the man who signed:

Clarence Weatherspoon
Howard Eisley
Moochie Norris
Keith Van Horn
Michael Sweetney
Antonio McDyess
Stephon Marbury
Tim Thomas
Mo Taylor
Steve Francis
Jalen Rose
Jerome James
Eddy Curry
Zach Randolph
Etc.

And I will never forgive Layden for subjecting this team to Larry Brown!

Yep... This Isiah LadenTom is sooo bad....
What a mess in 8 years...

First - I think what I said was:
1. The roster was bad- the main reason I gave is because so many of the players are not in the NBA with in two years of leaving the generous abode of the Knicks
2. That when Isiah came in - the Knicks were in no way closer to a championship than they are now. I also noted that JVG could see the writing on the wall and quit in 2001. The record of the Knicks in
2000/01-30/52
2001/02-37/45
2003- until Isiah came on board -Jan 2004 (yes I know he was hired Dec 23'd but its not a biggie really) -16/24

So lets not make it out that Isiah took over a team that was winning and doing well - and Layden was 'thrown under the bus'. The roster is below for anyone to see - he forgets that KVH was brought in before Isiah - and therefore the Latrell contract was moved-and we had KVHs contract at about 14M/year till 06/07.

49 Shandon Anderson SF 6-6 210 Georgia
51 Michael Doleac C 6-11 262 Utah
4 Howard Eisley PG 6-2 180 Boston College
32 Othella Harrington PF 6-9 235 Georgetown
20 Allan Houston SG 6-6 200 Tennessee
6 Maciej Lampe F 6-11 240 Poland
34 Antonio McDyess PF 6-9 245 Alabama
55 Dikembe Mutombo C 7-2 265 Georgetown
50 Mike Sweetney PF 6-8 260 Georgetown
40 Kurt Thomas FC 6-9 235 Texas Christian
2 Keith Van Horn F 6-10 255 Utah
29 Slavko Vranes C 0-0 0 Serbia-Montenegro
21 Charlie Ward PG 6-2 185 Florida State
35 Clarence Weatherspoon F 6-7 270 Southern Miss
30 Frank Williams PG 6-3 212 Illinois

The rest - really about plays offs 10 years ago etc makes no difference- as this is not about Layden - he has been judged - as wil Isiah. Like I said - I never said he did a wonderful job.

I am just saying that at the 'time' - there were people who who thought bringing in Marbury was a very good thing- he was the 'face' of the franchise- returning hometown hero etc. There are numerous mistakes made- as pointed out by many -such as Maurice Taylor , Norris and perhaps Marbury as well.

Regardless- most of this roster is not in the NBA (in only two years from Isiah coming on-board-in 2004- and not a single player is a legitimate starter on any NBA team. That does not mean Isiah is absolved - or that 'makes it OK' - but let's not kid ourselves - it was a bad team - from the record, from the number of young players who are not on the team (Sweetney, etc) , the draft picks that went nowhere, as well as the aging veterans - of which only one is a genuine NBA player today.


[Edited by - iyamwutiam on 02-18-2008 11:17 PM]

Posted by iyamwutiam:

First - I think what I said was:
1. The roster was bad- the main reason I gave is because so many of the players are not in the NBA with in two years of leaving the generous abode of the Knicks
2. That when Isiah came in - the Knicks were in no way closer to a championship than they are now. I also noted that JVG could see the writing on the wall and quit in 2001. The record of the Knicks in
2000/01-30/52
2001/02-37/45
2003- until Isiah came on board -Jan 2004 (yes I know he was hired Dec 23'd but its not a biggie really) -16/24

So lets not make it out that Isiah took over a team that was winning and doing well - and Layden was 'thrown under the bus'. The roster is below for anyone to see - he forgets that KVH was brought in before Isiah - and therefore the Latrell contract was moved-and we had KVHs contract at about 14M/year till 06/07.

49 Shandon Anderson SF 6-6 210 Georgia
51 Michael Doleac C 6-11 262 Utah
4 Howard Eisley PG 6-2 180 Boston College
32 Othella Harrington PF 6-9 235 Georgetown
20 Allan Houston SG 6-6 200 Tennessee
6 Maciej Lampe F 6-11 240 Poland
34 Antonio McDyess PF 6-9 245 Alabama
55 Dikembe Mutombo C 7-2 265 Georgetown
50 Mike Sweetney PF 6-8 260 Georgetown
40 Kurt Thomas FC 6-9 235 Texas Christian
2 Keith Van Horn F 6-10 255 Utah
29 Slavko Vranes C 0-0 0 Serbia-Montenegro
21 Charlie Ward PG 6-2 185 Florida State
35 Clarence Weatherspoon F 6-7 270 Southern Miss
30 Frank Williams PG 6-3 212 Illinois

The rest - really about plays offs 10 years ago etc makes no difference- as this is not about Layden - he has been judged - as wil Isiah. Like I said - I never said he did a wonderful job.

I am just saying that at the 'time' - there were people who who thought bringing in Marbury was a very good thing- he was the 'face' of the franchise- returning hometown hero etc. There are numerous mistakes made- as pointed out by many -such as Maurice Taylor , Norris and perhaps Marbury as well.

Regardless- most of this roster is not in the NBA (in only two years from Isiah coming on-board-in 2004- and not a single player is a legitimate starter on any NBA team. That does not mean Isiah is absolved - or that 'makes it OK' - but let's not kid ourselves - it was a bad team - from the record, from the number of young players who are not on the team (Sweetney, etc) , the draft picks that went nowhere, as well as the aging veterans - of which only one is a genuine NBA player today.


[Edited by - iyamwutiam on 02-18-2008 11:17 PM]

You clearly didn't read the original post otherwise you would have never made such statement in bold. I mentioned KVH. Slight error he would have been on the books with Houston and Anderson by 2005-2006 but even then he was an expiring contract. About $43mil on the books with those contracts, one contract very moveable KVH. The only players I left out were the picks from the Mcdyess trade, which would have expired within I SAY UGH's first 2yrs on the job. Mcdyess was an expiring after 2003-2004, Sweets and Lampe had TO's coming into the summer of 2006. My whole point was he could have cleaned things up within 2yrs after accessing Layden's team correctly.


There is no perhaps, the Marbury trade was bad it's a definite. Everyone agrees Layden's wasn't good, you fail to see I SAY UGH has been terribly worse. I didn't even mention all the buyout money he's cost the franchise.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 02-18-2008 10:45 PM]

Posted by BasketballJones:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by BasketballJones:

I don't see how you can defend Layden, the man who signed:

Clarence Weatherspoon
Howard Eisley
Moochie Norris
Keith Van Horn
Michael Sweetney
Antonio McDyess
Stephon Marbury
Tim Thomas
Mo Taylor
Steve Francis
Jalen Rose
Jerome James
Eddy Curry
Zach Randolph
Etc.

And I will never forgive Layden for subjecting this team to Larry Brown!

BJones there are some errors above and I agree Layden was bad but this notion that I SAY UGH had such a handcuffing situation is ridiculous. He could have cleaned the mess up in 2yrs while at the same time holding on to our draft picks. If he would have let Layden's team bottom out his first yr we might have been in the running to draft Dwight Howard and for certainly the following yr Chris Paul or Deron Williams


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 02-18-2008 9:18 PM]

That's right, I forgot. It was Larry Brown who traded for Francis and Rose.

It would help if you could be serious sometimes. Every post doesn't have to be a joke.

Umm - I didn't bold anything- so I am not sure why it came up in the quote ut nt in the post. - but I agree that KVh would have expired in 2007 -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04E4DA173DF935A25751C0A9629C8B63 towards the bottom of the page- it basically says that he had 2 more years left at a total of 27M.

So I am thinking that makes it 2006/07 season.

The other thing is all teams are required to keep 15 guys on their roster - of which atleast 3-4 were locked in - Shandon Anderson, Eisley, KVH, and Houston- you have done the math and I commend you for your efforts to have a genuine discussion.

Look - many people have pointed out that generally the best course is to let the contracts expire. No doubt - that McDyess's contract would/could have netted us a draft pick (but certainly not a lottery pick- probably lower 10 ). However- the Knicks did have 3 first round picks in 2005!! Lee, Robinson and Frye .

The draft does have unpredictability to it - and even with a top 5 pick (Morrison/K. Brown/R.Felton) there is no guarantee that you would get a 'franchise' type player or even a useful competitor - like say Martel Webster or Monte Ellis. There is always an element of uncertainity and risk.

Anyway - what I said doesn't change because Isiah chose the wrong strategy, made bad trades or didn't judiciously utilize expiring contracts to transform them into future draft picks. The team was bad and had very little talent on the roster- in terms of the long term - like say 3 years out.

Jerry West had been at it in Memphis for some time - and well - I think we can safely say - that West did not turn around this franchise.

Posted by iyamwutiam:

Jerry West had been at it in Memphis for some time - and well - I think we can safely say - that West did not turn around this franchise.

give west the freedom to spend and eat contracts and coaches like Isiah did, and I bet the knicks are sitting pretty right now, instead of the bottomless pit we have fallen into with Isiah...

Posted by iyamwutiam:

Umm - I didn't bold anything- so I am not sure why it came up in the quote ut nt in the post. - but I agree that KVh would have expired in 2007 -http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04E4DA173DF935A25751C0A9629C8B63 towards the bottom of the page- it basically says that he had 2 more years left at a total of 27M.

So I am thinking that makes it 2006/07 season.

The other thing is all teams are required to keep 15 guys on their roster - of which atleast 3-4 were locked in - Shandon Anderson, Eisley, KVH, and Houston- you have done the math and I commend you for your efforts to have a genuine discussion.

Look - many people have pointed out that generally the best course is to let the contracts expire. No doubt - that McDyess's contract would/could have netted us a draft pick (but certainly not a lottery pick- probably lower 10 ). However- the Knicks did have 3 first round picks in 2005!! Lee, Robinson and Frye .

The draft does have unpredictability to it - and even with a top 5 pick (Morrison/K. Brown/R.Felton) there is no guarantee that you would get a 'franchise' type player or even a useful competitor - like say Martel Webster or Monte Ellis. There is always an element of uncertainity and risk.

Anyway - what I said doesn't change because Isiah chose the wrong strategy, made bad trades or didn't judiciously utilize expiring contracts to transform them into future draft picks. The team was bad and had very little talent on the roster- in terms of the long term - like say 3 years out.

No Eisley would have been Adios.

He had a Team Option in 2005-2006 any smart GM tells him goodbye nice knowing you we no longer need your services. And please don't use the 15man roster BS when you stated our Cap will be down in 2yrs by 2010/2011 when approaching the 2009/2010 season we have only 6 players with committed salary at a tune of $58mil. 3 others with TO's at a tune of $5mil and David Lee and Robinson needing new deals. Let's say we don't exercise our TO's on Balkman, Chandler and Collins we'll have 8 players under contract, if we give Lee and Nate new deals. Looks like we have to find 7 other players to add to the roster to tack on top of the $58mil plus Lee and Nate's deal so your Bron-Bron talk by 2010/2011 was ludicrous in the other thread. Now if he wouldn't have traded Frye for Randolph, signed Jeffries, and completed the worst trade in Knicks history signing Curry he might be considered a better GM than Layden........ maybe.

Not in case you feel Marbury's and Rose's contracts(while unloading other salary) will net us picks and shed salary unlike Mcdyess contract could have done along with the other 4 expirings he had when he first arrived here 4yrs ago.