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OT: Al Jefferson 39pts 15reb vs Suns
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islesfan
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1/28/2008  5:22 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by islesfan:

How "half assed" can it be when after half a season he's putting up the numbers that he is at the age of 23? Again, I'm not claiming him to be an All-Defense type player but he's not the crap defender that Zach is.

I think it would be very fair to say that Jefferson is an average defender and I think the point of the writer is that he could be much better considering his physical gifts. I completely agree with that. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is saying that Jefferson is a comparable defender to Randolph. That's utterly ridiculous.

Jefferson is a mediocre defender who has a chance to be better at it considering his age and physical gifts. Randolph is a far below average defender and has given zero indication that he'll ever be anything more.

A better comparison would have been another player mentioned in that article. Amare Stoudemire. The season that Jefferson is having is exremely similar to the average Stoudemire year.

"half-assed" meaning he doesn't play defense. see the play on words there - defense is half the game, yes?

what are you basing your assessment of AJ's defense on?

I still don't get how you equate "mediocre defense" to "no defense".

I base it on the few games that I've seen him play and his stats.

What are you basing your assessment that he plays "no defense"?

there were a few games this season where Randolph didn't look too bad on D - mediocre - and wasn't a black hole at all, don't mean it is so.

You said it yourself, "a few games". On average Randolph is a black hole on defense. On average Al Jefferson is mediocre defensively. Where's the connection?

the connection is that you have only caught a few games of Jefferson and have no other basis than that. I have read too many articles by Minn beat staff that say Jefferson is great offensively and then he shuts it down on the other end of the court.

Define "shuts it down". Does that mean that he's totally useless like Zach and Curry? Statistically, I don't see how you can say that.

how can you begin to comment on a player when you have only seen a few games?

Because I've seen a hell of a lot of the ole defense that Zach and Eddy perform every night and from what I've seen, Jefferson is nowhere near that bad. The statistics back that up.

Why aren't you asking those who have only seen Jefferson play a few games, why they can make that comparison to Zach and Curry?

[Edited by - islesfan on 28-01-2008 5:23 PM]
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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Masterplan
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1/28/2008  5:32 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Because I've seen a hell of a lot of the ole defense that Zach and Eddy perform every night and from what I've seen, Jefferson is nowhere near that bad. The statistics back that up.

Why aren't you asking those who have only seen Jefferson play a few games, why they can make that comparison to Zach and Curry?

what is so good about AJ's stats? 1.35 blocks, 1.02 steals. better than zach and eddy, yes. again, i don't see the value in that being the criteria to assess anyone.

dude. this all started because i saw people in a better place to judge i.e. t-wolves beat writers make comparisons between AJ and zach.
islesfan
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1/28/2008  5:49 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by islesfan:

Because I've seen a hell of a lot of the ole defense that Zach and Eddy perform every night and from what I've seen, Jefferson is nowhere near that bad. The statistics back that up.

Why aren't you asking those who have only seen Jefferson play a few games, why they can make that comparison to Zach and Curry?

what is so good about AJ's stats? 1.35 blocks, 1.02 steals. better than zach and eddy, yes. again, i don't see the value in that being the criteria to assess anyone.

dude. this all started because i saw people in a better place to judge i.e. t-wolves beat writers make comparisons between AJ and zach.

Well yeah, they're better than Zach and Curry. Isn't that the point? Statistics aren't the end all be all but they do add value when comparing players. If Jefferson had very similar numbers to Zach and Curry, I'm fairly certain that they would be presented as evidence that comparisons would be valid.

Can Jefferson stand to play better defense? Absolutely. But his average defense is better than Zach and Curry's No Defense. That's all that I'm saying.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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1/28/2008  6:02 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by islesfan:

Because I've seen a hell of a lot of the ole defense that Zach and Eddy perform every night and from what I've seen, Jefferson is nowhere near that bad. The statistics back that up.

Why aren't you asking those who have only seen Jefferson play a few games, why they can make that comparison to Zach and Curry?

what is so good about AJ's stats? 1.35 blocks, 1.02 steals. better than zach and eddy, yes. again, i don't see the value in that being the criteria to assess anyone.

dude. this all started because i saw people in a better place to judge i.e. t-wolves beat writers make comparisons between AJ and zach.


In comparison to Zach and EY they are. What valid statistical comparison sticks when one says "Al=Zach" and vice versa?

It may not apply when saying "Whos The Best Young Player or Best Power Forward In The Game?"
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islesfan
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1/28/2008  6:13 PM
From ESPN:

Eddy Curry

Scouting report: If there's a worse defensive center out there than Curry, I'd like to see him. Curry rarely runs back hard on defense, creating countless transition opportunities for opponents, plus he reacts amazingly slowly to everything going on around him in the half court. Though he can jump, he requires a 10-second wind-up and thus responds far too late to be an effective shot-blocker or rebounder. And his response to the pick-and-roll is something called the stand-and-wave.

Now, about the rest of his game: It's terrible. Seriously, there is not one other category where he's even mediocre. Out of 62 NBA centers last season, Curry ranked 56th in rebound rate, 57th in blocks per minute, 57th in steals per minute, 53rd in assist ratio, and 56th in turnover ratio. If you're keeping track, that means he was in the bottom 10 at his position in every category that didn't involve scoring.

Curry also played no defense whatsoever. Last season the Knicks gave up 5.3 points more per 48 minutes when Curry was on the court. But at least he's consistent -- it was the second straight year the differential was 5.3.

2007-08 outlook: Curry might have a huge adjustment to make this season, because the Knicks acquired Zach Randolph in the offseason. Randolph is a low-post scorer, just like Curry, and he might be even more effective on the blocks than Curry. The duplication of skills doesn't end there. Like Curry, Randolph is a horrendous passer out of the double-team, and a lackadaisical defender.

While Zach has a nice touch from out high and can space the floor, there doesn't seem to be any similar answer at the defensive end. If these two start together the Knicks are going to have the worst defensive frontcourt in basketball, and they'll need to be one of the top five offensive teams in the league to make up for it.

Zach Randolph

Randolph has gained a rep for selfishness because he rarely passes out of double-teams, and when he does it's often to the wrong player. But his biggest weakness is his defense, or rather the lack of it. He isn't particularly quick or nimble, and he plays with remarkably little enthusiasm on that end of the floor.

2007-08 outlook:

He's 26 and now a couple years removed from microfracture knee surgery, which means the Knicks should be getting the best years of his career. Whether those years will include any attention to defense, not to mention any further scrapes with the law, is still to be determined.

Al Jefferson

Jefferson's offense remains well ahead of his defense, but he improved at that end of the floor as well. That's one reason his foul rate declined so much -- he stopped picking up cheap whistles on late rotations. Another factor was that he played center more often, where his foot speed and transition defense were less easily exposed. Though slightly undersized for a center at 6-10, Jefferson is a decent shot-blocker.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is exactly what I've been saying. Jefferson is an average defender while Zach and Curry are well below average defenders.

If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Masterplan
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1/28/2008  7:02 PM
trueblue: what statistics are there that accurately portray defensive performance? as per 82games.com, with al jefferson on the floor the t-wolves are 15.2 pts per 100 possessions worse than with him off. yikes. zach randolph and eddy curry are 4.7 and 8.2 pts per 100 posessions worse, respectively. don't know if that's any closer to accurate, but for what it's worth, that makes al jefferson look a lot *worse* than those two. clearly there are a lot of confounding factors. i'm not arguing he's worse than our Big 2. but that particular stat is atrocious. have a look and let me know what you think. (seriously, that site can be confusing.)

islesfan: i've read enough reports to believe it when people say the worst about AJ's effort on defense. reading the jefferson scouting report above, i wouldn't conclude "average," i'd say more "bad but looking better." and i'd expect that to be one of the more generous assessments of his defense. incidentally, it's probably been much more in vogue to bash eddy and zach the last few seasons than a young guy like AJ, that may factor in to some of the more charitable analyses like the above. anyway, i'm just off a day of work after the redeye back from Vegas last night, so maybe we can both be happy with our discussion and we can agree to disagree here.
islesfan
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1/28/2008  7:27 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

trueblue: what statistics are there that accurately portray defensive performance? as per 82games.com, with al jefferson on the floor the t-wolves are 15.2 pts per 100 possessions worse than with him off. yikes. zach randolph and eddy curry are 4.7 and 8.2 pts per 100 posessions worse, respectively. don't know if that's any closer to accurate, but for what it's worth, that makes al jefferson look a lot *worse* than those two. clearly there are a lot of confounding factors. i'm not arguing he's worse than our Big 2. but that particular stat is atrocious. have a look and let me know what you think. (seriously, that site can be confusing.)

islesfan: i've read enough reports to believe it when people say the worst about AJ's effort on defense. reading the jefferson scouting report above, i wouldn't conclude "average," i'd say more "bad but looking better." and i'd expect that to be one of the more generous assessments of his defense. incidentally, it's probably been much more in vogue to bash eddy and zach the last few seasons than a young guy like AJ, that may factor in to some of the more charitable analyses like the above. anyway, i'm just off a day of work after the redeye back from Vegas last night, so maybe we can both be happy with our discussion and we can agree to disagree here.

Cool. Good conversation. I hope you had a great time in Vegas.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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1/28/2008  9:28 PM
Posted by Masterplan:

trueblue: what statistics are there that accurately portray defensive performance? as per 82games.com, with al jefferson on the floor the t-wolves are 15.2 pts per 100 possessions worse than with him off. yikes. zach randolph and eddy curry are 4.7 and 8.2 pts per 100 posessions worse, respectively. don't know if that's any closer to accurate, but for what it's worth, that makes al jefferson look a lot *worse* than those two. clearly there are a lot of confounding factors. i'm not arguing he's worse than our Big 2. but that particular stat is atrocious. have a look and let me know what you think. (seriously, that site can be confusing.)

islesfan: i've read enough reports to believe it when people say the worst about AJ's effort on defense. reading the jefferson scouting report above, i wouldn't conclude "average," i'd say more "bad but looking better." and i'd expect that to be one of the more generous assessments of his defense. incidentally, it's probably been much more in vogue to bash eddy and zach the last few seasons than a young guy like AJ, that may factor in to some of the more charitable analyses like the above. anyway, i'm just off a day of work after the redeye back from Vegas last night, so maybe we can both be happy with our discussion and we can agree to disagree here.




More than happy to oblige. Even with such disparity Al's Roland Rating is a -1.5 which isn't the worst thing in the world considering he's on a very bad team right now. Randolph's is +.8 and Curry's is -6.2. 82gms is a double edged sword statistical site for referencing. It's ambiguous if you look at one component. Now if you go to the 5-Man Unit Stats and look at the W-L column notice the %'s 50% or better, have Al Jefferson in every unit. There are 4 of them I believe and he's the only constant in those units every other player gets subbed out. Look at 19, 16, 12, and 7 and look at the eFGA% column and dClose% column from those 4 numbers 19, 16, 12, and 7. You also have to look at "By Position" PER stats, you can see the Wolves weakest links are the PG, G, SF positions. So obviously Al could do better manning the starting unit but more than likely is starting with the wrong group of players.


Also a side point just so you know Al plays most of his minutes as a starter at Center for defense but plays a Power Forward/Center combo on offense. Go look up their box scores if you want. Ryan Gomes plays Power Forward. Their main starting line-up I believe is Telfair, Jaric, McCants, Gomes, Jefferson yeah that's a defensive unit right there.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708MIN2.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708MIN5.HTM


Now if you look at the Knicks 5-Man Units Stat and look at the W-L column notice the %'s 50% or better, there are 8 of them. Curry nor Randolph by themselves show up in each one...4,5,6,7,13,16,17,18. Curry shows up more than Zach 4-3. If you look at eFGA% look at how many 50% you see, the dClose% is so so a couple 40% from those numbers 4,5,6,7,13,16,17, and 18. Now look at "By Position" PER stats, you can see the Knicks weakest links are the SF,G, and PF positions when comparing each position.

Zach plays the majority of his minutes as a starter at Power Forward although some minutes at Center

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708NYK2.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708NYK5.HTM


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-28-2008 8:37 PM]
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TrueBlue
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1/31/2008  3:22 AM
Against The Bulls last night

36min 12-24fg 26pts, 20reb, 1ast, 2blks

LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
TrueBlue
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2/4/2008  11:54 PM
Against the Rockets and Yao tonight

39min 14-26fg 33pts, 16reb, 3stls, 2ast, 3blks
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JrZyHuStLa
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2/5/2008  12:07 AM
He's simply the anti-Curry.
TrueBlue
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2/5/2008  12:09 AM
Posted by JrZyHuStLa:

He's simply the anti-Curry.

and Randolph


His last 10gms have been Top Notch Beasting a Fantasy Nightmare
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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