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I think people are so upset with Isiah that they fail to see how strong a player Zbo is
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Cash
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12/13/2007  10:19 PM
I understand the argument that the Zbo trade was bad because he did not fit this team's needs. However, the problem with that argument is that this team sucked even before we got him. Who cares if he fits.

The single most important aspect of the Zbo trade is that it gives justification for trading Curry after we spent so much to get Curry. I think it is even possible that Isiah Thomas could himself trade Curry for a piece that is more complimentary. And, Zbo is the far superior player.

For awhile there, I thought we might be trying to build a team around Curry, which is an extremely difficult thing to do. The guy doesn't rebound, play defense, and most importantly he cannot pass out of a double team. On the other hand, Zach rebounds really well. He does play weak defense.

However, the single biggest difference between Zach and Curry, is that Zach has the reaction time and decision making skills to pass out of a double team(although he is not always willing to do so). This is the skill that makes his low post skills so valuable to other players. Curry is horrible at passing out of double teams, and so the other players around him do not play any better. Zach has the capacity to make players around him better with skillful passes out of the block.

I feel confident, surrounded by a team that was good enough to win a few games, that Zach would be much more unselfish with the ball. He shows this from time to time.

Also, Zach's scoring ability is very dynamic. When Curry was the first option, other teams knew this, and so they swarmed him low on the block. This resulted in a lot of turnovers. Zach is an offensive monster that can score from anywhere so it is much easier to get the ball to him.
AUTOADVERT
TMS
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12/13/2007  10:36 PM
Posted by Cash:

I understand the argument that the Zbo trade was bad because he did not fit this team's needs. However, the problem with that argument is that this team sucked even before we got him. Who cares if he fits.

what kinda reasoning is that? so it's a smart thing to spend $66 million dollars in extra cap & luxury tax dollars to acquire a player that not only does not fit, but also has not improved this team one bit from last season in your eyes? it seems to me Isiah's been going after every player w/talent in the game that doesn't fit & doesn't help to improve this team since he got here & so far it's netted us absolutely nothing... when do you finally learn from your mistakes?

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Cash
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12/13/2007  10:41 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Cash:

I understand the argument that the Zbo trade was bad because he did not fit this team's needs. However, the problem with that argument is that this team sucked even before we got him. Who cares if he fits.

what kinda reasoning is that? so it's a smart thing to spend $66 million dollars in extra cap & luxury tax dollars to acquire a player that not only does not fit, but also has not improved this team one bit from last season in your eyes? it seems to me Isiah's been going after every player w/talent in the game that doesn't fit & doesn't help to improve this team since he got here & so far it's netted us absolutely nothing... when do you finally learn from your mistakes?

I am not supporting the trade from Isiah's point of view. I am supporting the trade as a knicks fan. We would have sucked with or without Zbo. At least with Zbo, we have a low post player who can score, who can rebound, and who can pass out of a double team. And, this guy loves to play basketball. He may not be a leader, but he is more than what we had as far as enthusiasm for the game.
islesfan
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12/13/2007  10:46 PM
Zach is a stat whore who has never passed out of a double team. He doesn't bother playing defense and has no interest in doing the little things to help his team win. If he's not having a good night scoring the ball, he's a complete waste out there.

He's the empty stat version at PF that Marbury is at PG and Curry is to a lesser extent at center. I say "lesser extent" because his stats aren't that good. Aside from points they're pretty pathetic.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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12/13/2007  10:52 PM
We knew he was 20/10 before he got here and most considered him a Top 10pf we're only concerned with W's not stats. Then to top it off we take on almost $70mil in additional salary over the course of his contract.

Another thread that belongs in the Recycle Bin.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-13-2007 9:54 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Cash
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12/13/2007  10:53 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Zach is a stat whore who has never passed out of a double team. He doesn't bother playing defense and has no interest in doing the little things to help his team win. If he's not having a good night scoring the ball, he's a complete waste out there.

He's the empty stat version at PF that Marbury is at PG and Curry is to a lesser extent at center. I say "lesser extent" because his stats aren't that good. Aside from points they're pretty pathetic.

I agree that Zach can be a selfish player. However, his low post skills differ from Curry's because Zach has the potential to pass out of double teams. He possesses the decision making skills to do so unlike Curry. Curry will never pass well out of double teams because he lacks the ability to do so.

And, yes, his defense is not great. However, not every player is going to be good at everything. ZBo rebounds very well, can pass out of double teams to make teamates better, and can score fairly efficiently in the right situation(aka-no curry and more inside shots.)

The biggest difference between Zach and Curry and marbury is that he loves to play this game. This guy tries hard, and could be part of a winning team.
Cash
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12/13/2007  11:02 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:

We knew he was 20/10 before he got here and most considered him a Top 10pf we're only concerned with W's not stats. Then to top it off we take on almost $70mil in additional salary over the course of his contract.

Another thread that belongs in the Recycle Bin.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-13-2007 9:54 PM]

We sucked before he got here. He did not complement other players. However when those other players suck it does not matter if he complements them. They needed to go anyway.

At least now we have a low post player who loves to play the game who can be part of a solution.
Cash
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12/13/2007  11:09 PM
I think I should clarify one issue between the difference between marbury and Zach. Marbury is a very talented player that alienated a ton of his teamates and so they got traded away. We haven't scene any evidence that Zach has done anything like this. I think Zach can work with others that don't want to eat his food(aka Curry.)
islesfan
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12/13/2007  11:18 PM
Posted by Cash:

I think I should clarify one issue between the difference between marbury and Zach. Marbury is a very talented player that alienated a ton of his teamates and so they got traded away. We haven't scene any evidence that Zach has done anything like this. I think Zach can work with others that don't want to eat his food(aka Curry.)

There were reports that his teammates wanted him gone last year when he was in Portland. Portland management didn't want Zach anywhere near their young nucleus, that's why they traded him for nothing.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
kam77
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12/13/2007  11:18 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Zach is a stat whore who has never passed out of a double team.

Last game, 1 minute and change to go in the 3rd quarter. Crawford fed Zach in the low post. The double came quick so Zack bounced it back out to Craw at the arc who immediately flicked it back down to Zach as the double had dissipated. Zach makes the pretty hoop and points to Craw as he runs back up the court.

I'm with Cash.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
islesfan
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12/13/2007  11:21 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by islesfan:

Zach is a stat whore who has never passed out of a double team.

Last game, 1 minute and change to go in the 3rd quarter. Crawford fed Zach in the low post. The double came quick so Zack bounced it back out to Craw at the arc who immediately flicked it back down to Zach as the double had dissipated. Zach makes the pretty hoop and points to Craw as he runs back up the court.

I'm with Cash.

How about the majority of the time when he's a black hole when he gets the ball? How many times have you seen him launch a bad shot or turned it over when he's had the chance to give it up?

I agree that he's a more skilled and smarter player than Curry is (not that hard to be) and he can pass it out but he's more likely to force a shot than kick it out.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
kam77
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12/13/2007  11:22 PM
Zach is a throwback type player on offense. There is a high degree of difficulty on his shots but most nights he is on and they go in. Some nights he is going to go 1-10 and look like crap so you can't count on him as your Franchise.

Is he our best big man though? Yeah...

Stands to reason you trade Curry and Lee to get a big-time Center (Tyson Chandler) to pair with Z-BO.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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12/13/2007  11:24 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by islesfan:

Zach is a stat whore who has never passed out of a double team.

Last game, 1 minute and change to go in the 3rd quarter. Crawford fed Zach in the low post. The double came quick so Zack bounced it back out to Craw at the arc who immediately flicked it back down to Zach as the double had dissipated. Zach makes the pretty hoop and points to Craw as he runs back up the court.

I'm with Cash.

How about the majority of the time when he's a black hole when he gets the ball? How many times have you seen him launch a bad shot or turned it over when he's had the chance to give it up?

I agree that he's a more skilled and smarter player than Curry is (not that hard to be) and he can pass it out but he's more likely to force a shot than kick it out.

In my limited time watching Zach.. he's most shot happy when Eddy is in the game and Zach is forced to be a jumpshooter. I agree with you in that I don't think he is a willing passer on the perimeter at all.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Cash
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12/13/2007  11:25 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by islesfan:

Zach is a stat whore who has never passed out of a double team.

Last game, 1 minute and change to go in the 3rd quarter. Crawford fed Zach in the low post. The double came quick so Zack bounced it back out to Craw at the arc who immediately flicked it back down to Zach as the double had dissipated. Zach makes the pretty hoop and points to Craw as he runs back up the court.

I'm with Cash.

That is exactly the point. Zach can pass it out intelligently. And when he does sometimes he gets it back and it benefits him. He is not a goldmine on the spot, but we can work with this guy, especially if he is surrounded by better players. He likes to play the game, and I would bet that he likes to win.
islesfan
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12/13/2007  11:27 PM
Posted by kam77:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by islesfan:

Zach is a stat whore who has never passed out of a double team.

Last game, 1 minute and change to go in the 3rd quarter. Crawford fed Zach in the low post. The double came quick so Zack bounced it back out to Craw at the arc who immediately flicked it back down to Zach as the double had dissipated. Zach makes the pretty hoop and points to Craw as he runs back up the court.

I'm with Cash.

How about the majority of the time when he's a black hole when he gets the ball? How many times have you seen him launch a bad shot or turned it over when he's had the chance to give it up?

I agree that he's a more skilled and smarter player than Curry is (not that hard to be) and he can pass it out but he's more likely to force a shot than kick it out.

In my limited time watching Zach.. he's most shot happy when Eddy is in the game and Zach is forced to be a jumpshooter. I agree with you in that I don't think he is a willing passer on the perimeter at all.

That's all I'm saying. He's not exactly a willing pass down low either. He can but chances are he's shooting it.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
kam77
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12/13/2007  11:29 PM
Cash-

Do you feel similarly about Crawford. I ask because i think Crawford and Zach can develop a similar chemistry that Craw has with Eddy. Even though we're losing all these games, i'm much happier knowing Crawford is running the point.

I'd like to see this become a Craw/Zach team for the rest of the year.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
TrueBlue
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12/13/2007  11:32 PM
Posted by Cash:
Posted by TrueBlue:

We knew he was 20/10 before he got here and most considered him a Top 10pf we're only concerned with W's not stats. Then to top it off we take on almost $70mil in additional salary over the course of his contract.

Another thread that belongs in the Recycle Bin.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-13-2007 9:54 PM]

We sucked before he got here. He did not complement other players. However when those other players suck it does not matter if he complements them. They needed to go anyway.

At least now we have a low post player who loves to play the game who can be part of a solution.


So are you saying since Zach doesn't complement anybody on this team really, factoring all of the moves I SAY UGH has made, we can now hang our hat on a ball hogging/black hole 46%fg power forward who doesn't make his teamates better and start rebuilding around him which suggest gutting the rest of the team?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
islesfan
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12/13/2007  11:33 PM
Posted by Cash:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by islesfan:

Zach is a stat whore who has never passed out of a double team.

Last game, 1 minute and change to go in the 3rd quarter. Crawford fed Zach in the low post. The double came quick so Zack bounced it back out to Craw at the arc who immediately flicked it back down to Zach as the double had dissipated. Zach makes the pretty hoop and points to Craw as he runs back up the court.

I'm with Cash.

That is exactly the point. Zach can pass it out intelligently. And when he does sometimes he gets it back and it benefits him. He is not a goldmine on the spot, but we can work with this guy, especially if he is surrounded by better players. He likes to play the game, and I would bet that he likes to win.

Zach is not the kind of guy you build around. He's like Weed Wallace. A complementary player that can go off, in a good way, every now and then. But he can also go off in a bad way. On a bad team like this, you'll never get the best from him. Put him on the Bulls or Nets and I think he can really help them. I suggested that before he was traded to the Knicks, which I thought was a terrible fit.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Cash
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12/13/2007  11:36 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by Cash:
Posted by TrueBlue:

We knew he was 20/10 before he got here and most considered him a Top 10pf we're only concerned with W's not stats. Then to top it off we take on almost $70mil in additional salary over the course of his contract.

Another thread that belongs in the Recycle Bin.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 12-13-2007 9:54 PM]

We sucked before he got here. He did not complement other players. However when those other players suck it does not matter if he complements them. They needed to go anyway.

At least now we have a low post player who loves to play the game who can be part of a solution.


So are you saying since Zach doesn't complement anybody on this team really, factoring all of the moves I SAY UGH has made, we can now hang our hat on a ball hogging/black hole 46%fg power forward who doesn't make his teamates better and start rebuilding around him which suggest gutting the rest of the team?

Zach doesn't complement Curry. Period and end of story. Isiah has made a ton of poor moves but that doesn't mean Zach couldn't be effective with some of our other players. And, I don't think anyone wants to hang our hats on Zach, we still suck. But, he can be part of something. And btw, when a pf takes a lot of outside shots, his fg% is going to be low. And, since Zach can pass out of double teams, he can make his teamates better.
kam77
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12/13/2007  11:38 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Cash:
Posted by kam77:
Posted by islesfan:

Zach is a stat whore who has never passed out of a double team.

Last game, 1 minute and change to go in the 3rd quarter. Crawford fed Zach in the low post. The double came quick so Zack bounced it back out to Craw at the arc who immediately flicked it back down to Zach as the double had dissipated. Zach makes the pretty hoop and points to Craw as he runs back up the court.

I'm with Cash.

That is exactly the point. Zach can pass it out intelligently. And when he does sometimes he gets it back and it benefits him. He is not a goldmine on the spot, but we can work with this guy, especially if he is surrounded by better players. He likes to play the game, and I would bet that he likes to win.

Zach is not the kind of guy you build around. He's like Weed Wallace. A complementary player that can go off, in a good way, every now and then. But he can also go off in a bad way. On a bad team like this, you'll never get the best from him. Put him on the Bulls or Nets and I think he can really help them. I suggested that before he was traded to the Knicks, which I thought was a terrible fit.

We can probably flip him in a year or two. I lik the Wallace comparison. Not a guy you want to build around, but a guy you can integrate into a contender. How about the Pistons? They don't seem shy with taking on extra PFs every year what with their Webber experiment.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
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I think people are so upset with Isiah that they fail to see how strong a player Zbo is
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