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florida fans should stop their whining!
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jazz74
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12/5/2007  9:14 AM
i listened to mike and mike this morning and their were a flood of florida fans calling and whining about their team. they are upset with marlin's management and whining about the dolphins. granted i do agree that the marlin management is a joke ( say what you want about dolan at least he will spend money, though for the wrong reasons). however they won two championships in the last 10 years. how many teams can say that? only the yankees and red sox. they won an nba championship two years ago with the heat so no they shouldn't complain. man, i wish the mets and knicks had it like that but one haven't won since 1986 while the other haven't since before i was born in 1973. so they have no reason to whine. maybe if they go to their stadium once in awhile and support their team, they wouldn't be in this mess.
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TMS
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12/5/2007  5:54 PM
i agree. Florida has shown that they know what they're doing. They built 2 championship teams like u said. They tore it apart after the 1st one, collected on the rise in popularity & attendance, then built it up again through the farm system & smart free agent signings & trade acquisitions for the second. They got a crop of some very good young talent for their 2 prize players. They seem to have the right idea how to build a core for another championship run. Having an actual plan for longterm success, now there's a novel concept.
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majorleads
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12/5/2007  8:24 PM
Posted by jazz74:

i listened to mike and mike this morning and their were a flood of florida fans calling and whining about their team. they are upset with marlin's management and whining about the dolphins. granted i do agree that the marlin management is a joke ( say what you want about dolan at least he will spend money, though for the wrong reasons). however they won two championships in the last 10 years. how many teams can say that? only the yankees and red sox. they won an nba championship two years ago with the heat so no they shouldn't complain. man, i wish the mets and knicks had it like that but one haven't won since 1986 while the other haven't since before i was born in 1973. so they have no reason to whine. maybe if they go to their stadium once in awhile and support their team, they wouldn't be in this mess.

The Marlins management isn't a mess, their stadium deal is. They don't have the revenues coming in because Wayne Huizenga controls pretty much everything in that stadium. They do the best they can do with the limited resources they have. Remember now, it cost a tremendous amount of money to scout players and run your minor league system too. A lot of their available money goes towards signing and developing players which they have done a pretty good job of since Loria bought the team.

But the bottom line is the South Florida market is terrible for pro sports unless it's the Dolphins. Most of the fans are transplants and have allegiances to other teams. And most people don't enjoy sitting outside in the 95 degree heat and humidity during the summer. The Marlins do get a nice tv audience when their going well.

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TMS
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12/5/2007  9:15 PM
if the Florida fans aren't supporting their team then they have no business complaining about lacking the resources to hold onto their players... it's pathetic when u watch Marlin games & see about 15K people sitting inside the stadium on a good day... when i was watching Yankee games back in the early-mid 80s during a few of the lean years, i would see half the stadium empty, but George would still spend money to bring in players to try & improve the roster... eventually they started to win again & the fans flocked back to the stadium... now their attendance tops over 4 million every year & average attendance is over 40K per game... that doesn't happen by accident.

revenues are generated when your team plays well & the fans come to watch & support the team... in order for your team to play well, you need to either spend money on scouting & development of young talent, or bring in already established players on big money contracts... all this complaining you do about the payroll & how it's not fair that the big market teams have all these resources while other teams don't, yet fail to realize that the big market teams put themselves in the position to have these resources by spending the money it takes to either scout that young talent or to bring in the veteran talent to win ballgames.

bottomline, you win fan support by winning ballgames... it takes money to make money... all these cheapskate billionaire owners of teams that don't want to invest the money out of their own pockets to start building up that fan support for their franchise & constantly whine & complain about the Yankees or Red Sox or any other team spending money need to either get into another business, or shut their yappers & be happy pocketing all that revenue sharing money they get from those big market teams every year.
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majorleads
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12/5/2007  9:52 PM
Posted by TMS:

if the Florida fans aren't supporting their team then they have no business complaining about lacking the resources to hold onto their players... it's pathetic when u watch Marlin games & see about 15K people sitting inside the stadium on a good day... when i was watching Yankee games back in the early-mid 80s during a few of the lean years, i would see half the stadium empty, but George would still spend money to bring in players to try & improve the roster... eventually they started to win again & the fans flocked back to the stadium... now their attendance tops over 4 million every year & average attendance is over 40K per game... that doesn't happen by accident.

revenues are generated when your team plays well & the fans come to watch & support the team... in order for your team to play well, you need to either spend money on scouting & development of young talent, or bring in already established players on big money contracts... all this complaining you do about the payroll & how it's not fair that the big market teams have all these resources while other teams don't, yet fail to realize that the big market teams put themselves in the position to have these resources by spending the money it takes to either scout that young talent or to bring in the veteran talent to win ballgames.

bottomline, you win fan support by winning ballgames... it takes money to make money... all these cheapskate billionaire owners of teams that don't want to invest the money out of their own pockets to start building up that fan support for their franchise & constantly whine & complain about the Yankees or Red Sox or any other team spending money need to either get into another business, or shut their yappers & be happy pocketing all that revenue sharing money they get from those big market teams every year.

You aren't listening to me. The Florida Marlins have a TERRIBLE stadium deal. They can't make money there because most of it goes towards Wayne Huizenga. Concessions, parking, luxury suites, marketing, and a pct of tickets sold, a good chunk of all that the Marlins do not see. Also, there is no big local TV deal for them to makes gobs of money. And you need to throw in the costs of doing business TODAY, as it is not 1985. Then on top of that, you're playing in a football stadium in the middle of nowhere in 95 degree heat and humidity with always the threat of rain. What you're proposing is the owners of the Marlins lose upwards of 50 million every year HOPING that the fans will show up.

The Marlins did spend money and when they did, they lost a lot of it even when they won. Why do you think theres been so many ownership changes down there? It's a loser. They desperately need a new stadium and even if they get one, there is no guarantee it will be profitable because the fan base in South Florida is all spread out. Who the F wants to go all the way down to the slums of Miami(where the proposed new park will be built) when they can sit home in Boca Raton and watch on their big screen with the AC on. And if Steinslobber was losing gobs of money every year he wouldn't be spending it like a drunken sailor.

I know the South Florida market VERY well. I lived all over South Florida for half my life. I've also asked David Samson (the President of the Marlins) why he doesn't lower the ticket prices to attract more fans. He's the one who explained to me where every penny of revenue goes. What you can blame the Marlins ownership on is not contributing more money to a stadium deal. But,Jeffrey Loria is not the wealthiest owner in baseball. That market needs a billionaire who can sustain the tremendous losses until a new stadium gets built. And I would never ever ever build a stadium in Miami. It's a bad market for pro sports.
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TMS
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12/5/2007  10:11 PM
what you just said pretty much is that it's not fair to expect owners to risk losing money unless there was a guarantee that they would make a profit on their investment... i'd like to know what line of investment guarantees you a profit on the money you invest? if you know of any please let me know so i can stop wasting my time working a 9-5 job, willya? perhaps Loria would have been better off putting his money into a money market account instead of buying a ML franchise if that's his modus operandi?

welcome to the wonderful world of business, where it actually takes risks & money spent to be successful... if the Marlins deem the risks too high, they have no reason to complain when they lose their best players to other teams because they can't afford to hold onto them... what they're doing is the best course of action for them because of the fact that they don't want to spend the money on big contracts... they're building back up with youth & trying to compete at the same time... until they can get that new stadium built & gain a TV contract by winning some ballgames w/heightened fan support, that's their situation.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-05-2007 7:12 PM]
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majorleads
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12/6/2007  12:03 AM
Posted by TMS:

what you just said pretty much is that it's not fair to expect owners to risk losing money unless there was a guarantee that they would make a profit on their investment... i'd like to know what line of investment guarantees you a profit on the money you invest? if you know of any please let me know so i can stop wasting my time working a 9-5 job, willya? perhaps Loria would have been better off putting his money into a money market account instead of buying a ML franchise if that's his modus operandi?

welcome to the wonderful world of business, where it actually takes risks & money spent to be successful... if the Marlins deem the risks too high, they have no reason to complain when they lose their best players to other teams because they can't afford to hold onto them... what they're doing is the best course of action for them because of the fact that they don't want to spend the money on big contracts... they're building back up with youth & trying to compete at the same time... until they can get that new stadium built & gain a TV contract by winning some ballgames w/heightened fan support, that's their situation.

[Edited by - TMS on 12-05-2007 7:12 PM]

There is losing money and then there is LOSING money. It's one thing to lose a couple mil per season, but when you're losing 15, 20 and even 30 million dollars with no hope of it ever getting better in your present situation, then the owner has little recourse other than selling the team. Problem is, nobody is going to buy the Marlins and keep them in South Florida under the present situation.

What you want the Marlins to do is keep Willis and Cabrera, add additional players and have a payroll of around 75 million which guarantees them pretty much nothing. Problem with that is, at 75 million payroll they would lose around 30 million dollars. If they made the postseason, perhaps they'd only lose about 20 mil. How can an owner plan for the future losing that kind of money? It adds up!!


The Marlins situation is different from every other team. If you want to complain about an owner, look at that jackass in Pittsburgh. Whats his name? McClatchy? Brand new park financed by the city and the franchise is a mess. Same with Angelos in Baltimore. But IMO, the Marlins need to move out of South Florida because they will never make money down there. Like I said, it's a terrible sports market even when things are going good with the teams. Also the money population is moving northward into Palm Beach county away from that Miami dump. And most baseball fans down there are transplants from the northeast so they couldn't give a crap if the Marlins move.
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TMS
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12/6/2007  12:32 AM
What you want the Marlins to do is keep Willis and Cabrera, add additional players and have a payroll of around 75 million which guarantees them pretty much nothing. Problem with that is, at 75 million payroll they would lose around 30 million dollars. If they made the postseason, perhaps they'd only lose about 20 mil. How can an owner plan for the future losing that kind of money? It adds up!!

i don't want them to do anything but to stop their moaning & groaning about losing their players when they just got back a damn good package of young talent in return for them... i happen to think the trade was a smart one to make considering their owner doesn't want to spend any money on the team...

what i also want is for someone to tell me where the hell the revenue sharing money that teams like the Yankees & Red Sox have been giving them over the past several years has been going to when their entire payroll for last season was somewhere in the realm of $15 million dollars?
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majorleads
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12/6/2007  1:54 AM
Posted by TMS:
What you want the Marlins to do is keep Willis and Cabrera, add additional players and have a payroll of around 75 million which guarantees them pretty much nothing. Problem with that is, at 75 million payroll they would lose around 30 million dollars. If they made the postseason, perhaps they'd only lose about 20 mil. How can an owner plan for the future losing that kind of money? It adds up!!

i don't want them to do anything but to stop their moaning & groaning about losing their players when they just got back a damn good package of young talent in return for them... i happen to think the trade was a smart one to make considering their owner doesn't want to spend any money on the team...

what i also want is for someone to tell me where the hell the revenue sharing money that teams like the Yankees & Red Sox have been giving them over the past several years has been going to when their entire payroll for last season was somewhere in the realm of $15 million dollars?

Below is their opening day payroll since Loria bought the team. In 2005 they lost a TON of money after they made all those FA signings. Now with the uncertainty of the stadium deal, there is no sense in investing long term on big contracts if the state isn't going to approve the new stadium. The revenue sharing money goes towards covering their losses. So they either spend money on payroll to try and compete even though they need a lot of pieces right now, but they would lose tons of money, or, they can go young, break even until they find out whether or not there will be a new stadium. This owner wants to win and will spend money, but there is no incentive right now to doing so.

* 2007: $30,507,000 *

* 2006: $14,998,500

* 2005: $60,408,834

* 2004: $42,143,042

* 2003: $45,050,000

* 2002: $41,979,917
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TMS
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12/6/2007  2:25 AM
what does any of that have to do w/revenue sharing dollars? those dollars should be exclusively used to bring more talent to the team & try to compete... it should not be pocketed by greedy owners looking to make a profit off the backs of other teams.

here's a great article that illustrates my feelings on revenue sharing & small market teams:

http://baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/baseballs_revenue_sharing_problem
Baseball's Revenue Sharing Problem
Major League Baseball Hurt By Teams Who Don't Spend Money on Players

© James Lincoln Ray

Nov 12, 2007
Major League Baseball doesn't require the beneficiaries of revenue sharing to spend the money they receive on players.

Under Major League Baseball’s revenue sharing system, which has been in effect for the last ten years, a number of "big market" teams like the Yankees, Mets, and Red Sox give huge chunks of money every season to a group of "small market" teams that include the Kansas City Royals, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and the Florida Marlins.
Revenue Sharing 101

It's not that the wealthier teams are generous. Quite far from it. In 1997, baseball created a new revenue sharing system that requires successful teams to pay millions of dollars every year to unsuccessful teams. Revenue sharing is supposed to create better competitive balance among all 30 Major League Baseball teams. The past decade has shown that teams who use revenue sharing dollars to attract and retain talented ballplayers become more competitive on the field and more profitable on the books.

The Colorado Rockies are a fine example. The Rockies used all of the $16 million they received in 2006 revenue sharing dollars to increase their payroll in 2007, and that certainly helped the team win this year's National League pennant. The Detroit Tigers are another success story. They used revenue sharing dollars to attract free agents Ivan Rodriguez and Magglio Ordonez, and those players helped the Tigers climb from a team that won just 43 games in 2002 to a club that won the American League pennant last year.


Many Revenue Sharing Recipient Teams Don't Improve

Being on the receiving end of baseball’s Robin Hood Policy doesn't guarantee success, however. One reason that some clubs fail to improve is that they don't use their revenue sharing dollars to attract free agents or to retain homegrown players.

Major League Baseball's revenue sharing agreement does not require recipients to spend the "shared" revenue on actual ballplayers. All that is required by teams is that they use the money "to improve the product on the field." That vague requirement, however, has not been enforced by the League. In reality, the money can go anywhere. It can even go into the owner’s pockets.


Florida and Tampa Bay Are the Worst Revenue-Sharing Offenders

The two biggest abusers of the system are the Florida Marlins and the Tampa Bay Rays (who changed their official team name from the Devil Rays just a few days ago, wow!)

The Marlins won the World Series title in 2003 with a team that had a unique combination of great young players and talented veterans that included Josh Beckett, Brad Penny, Mike Lowell and Ivan Rodriguez. That year, the team had a respectable $54 million payroll. Rather than retain those players, however, the Marlins traded away Penny and Beckett for much cheaper players, and lost Mike Lowell and Pudge Rodriguez to free agency.

By shedding these stars, Florida was able to cut its payroll down to $14.9 million in 2006, which is less than 20% of the Major League average of $78 million. It was also less than half of the $31 million in revenue sharing dollars the team received that year. [b]So, rather than using the money to retain or attract on-field talent, the owners took it as part of the team's MLB best $43 million profit in 2006. (doesn't seem like Loria lost any money that year, now does it?)

The Rays might be worse than the Marlins. From 2002 through 2006, Tampa Bay took in an average of $32 million per year in revenue sharing money. During that same period, the Rays had an average payroll of just $27 million, which was the lowest in baseball. They also had the worst five year record on the field, winning an average of just 70 games per season. Yet the team turned an average profit of more than $20 million during those years.


The Revenue Sharing Rules Need a Change

As stated above, baseball doesn't force revenue sharing recipients to use the money on payroll. All that is required is that the team use the money to "improve the product on the field." No one has even tried to define the meaning of "improve the product on the field." Moreover, there are not any subtantial reporting requirements or other measures of accountability in the system. Teams get the money and simply use it as they please. Some spend it on payroll and watch their teams improve. Others pocket the cash and watch their teams continue to suck.

So long as the rules remain lax and enforcement non-existent, teams will be able to take advantage of the system. Here are some changes that have been suggested.

Some advisors argue that baseball should require teams to spend a specified minimum percentage of shared revenue on player payroll. Others have suggested a model that would pay the most revenue sharing dollars to those small market teams who were best able to increase their attandance and/or television viewership each year. Some have even suggested a simple minimum dollar amount for player payroll.

Whether or not any of these ideas can work is of course subject to debate. Perhaps the best way to resolve that debate would be to implement one or more of them and see how they work. It's got to be better than what baseball has right now.

P.S. -- On December 4, 2007, the Marlins agreed to trade their two highest paid players, Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis, to the Detroit Tigers for young prospects, a move that will likely insure that the Marlins will have the lowest payroll and one of the worst franchises in baseball in 2008.
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VDesai
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12/6/2007  9:50 AM
Florida Fans? What, all 9000 of them?
jazz74
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12/6/2007  9:57 AM
exactly. no support. however, they still found ways to win within their franchise. then they complain about the state of the team. well, support them. vote to see if you want a new enclosed stadium. used the excess revenue to do it and tank a few seasons. i agree that it is a mess down there. but they have two championships for their trouble. be happy. stop the whining.
florida fans should stop their whining!

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