[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

new york mets thread- off-season thread
Author Thread
jaydh
Posts: 22691
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
11/30/2007  4:52 PM
Posted by VDesai:

If Milledge is probably > Church and they already had 2 similar catchers to Schneider on the roster, how is this filling holes?

Because Schneider is now the best catcher we have for defense, who knows what estrada is going to be like since his surgery and Castro is more of a hitting catcher. Church is a vet and more established than milledge on the offensive and defensive side. While Milledge clearly has a higher ceiling, you know what you are getting from Church. Plus this will prevent Gomez from being blocked when he is ready.
AUTOADVERT
VDesai
Posts: 33996
Alba Posts: 43
Joined: 10/28/2003
Member: #477
USA
11/30/2007  5:01 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by VDesai:

If Milledge is probably > Church and they already had 2 similar catchers to Schneider on the roster, how is this filling holes?

Because Schneider is now the best catcher we have for defense, who knows what estrada is going to be like since his surgery and Castro is more of a hitting catcher. Church is a vet and more established than milledge on the offensive and defensive side. While Milledge clearly has a higher ceiling, you know what you are getting from Church. Plus this will prevent Gomez from being blocked when he is ready.

If all you wanted was a defensive catcher with no bat, there are a host of guys like that available on the FA market that are not making the $5 mil a year Schnieder is and wouldn't have costed Milledge. It was a pretty senseless move.

VDesai
Posts: 33996
Alba Posts: 43
Joined: 10/28/2003
Member: #477
USA
11/30/2007  5:01 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by VDesai:

If Milledge is probably > Church and they already had 2 similar catchers to Schneider on the roster, how is this filling holes?

Because Schneider is now the best catcher we have for defense, who knows what estrada is going to be like since his surgery and Castro is more of a hitting catcher. Church is a vet and more established than milledge on the offensive and defensive side. While Milledge clearly has a higher ceiling, you know what you are getting from Church. Plus this will prevent Gomez from being blocked when he is ready.

If all you wanted was a defensive catcher with no bat, there are a host of guys like that available on the FA market that are not making the $5 mil a year Schnieder is and wouldn't have costed Milledge. It was a pretty senseless move.

TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
11/30/2007  5:06 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

Milledge has been their best position prospect for awhile now. You're going to deny that he's been the prospect that the Mets fans have been looking forward to the last couple of years? And this is all the Mets could get for him? Schneider and Church should be players you can get for marginal prospects or in a swap of bench players, not one of your big chips.

Not true, in fact, F.Martinez has been their best position prospect for a while now. Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect since the beginning of 2005. Like I said, he was the most ready, but not the top rated by any means.


Funny that you'd admit now that Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect for years now... when i brought that fact up to you, you got very defensive.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
islesfan
Posts: 9999
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
11/30/2007  5:07 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

I never said it was all about hitting. But the Mets offense is so top heavy. When Delgado continues his decline and Alou gets hurt, they're not a good offensive team.

So top heavy? Alou and Church will bat 6 and 7th. One had a .900OPS while the other an .800OPS last season.
Posted by islesfan:

Add to that bad starting pitching and a bad bullpen and the Mets are a team that could take a big step back next year.

Bad SP? Right, just because we need 1 starter, doesn't mean the rotation is bad. How do we take a stap back? The lineup and defense is already better, the rotation is no worse than is started out with last season, and the bullpen can only get better with guys returning and Mota out.
Posted by islesfan:

Church and Green had roughly the same OPS last year. Like I said, he's not an upgrade over Green and will likely be the 4th OFer until Alou gets hurt. He's a part time player.

Shawn Green= .772 ops, Church= .813 ops. Yes, I believe their is a difference. And Chavez will be our 4th OFer.
Posted by islesfan:

Milledge has been their best position prospect for awhile now. You're going to deny that he's been the prospect that the Mets fans have been looking forward to the last couple of years? And this is all the Mets could get for him? Schneider and Church should be players you can get for marginal prospects or in a swap of bench players, not one of your big chips.

Not true, in fact, F.Martinez has been their best position prospect for a while now. Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect since the beginning of 2005. Like I said, he was the most ready, but not the top rated by any means.

I suggest you read Keith Law's comments on the trade. Everything he said is basically what I'm trying to say.

Why are you trying to overrate Church this badly? He's never been a full time starter. He doesn't put up big numbers.

The top of the lineup with Reyes, Castillo, Beltran, Wright is the heart of the Mets lineup. Delgado is in serious decline and Alou can't be counted on for a full season anymore. A 7-8-9 of Church, Schneider and the pitcher is VERY weak. That's a very top heavy lineup.

If Maine and Perez are the only things you can count on, you have bad starting pitching. You can't count on Pedro for a full year, same with El Duque, and if he doesn't get his fastball back he's not anywhere near a top of the rotation guy.

The lineup is worse, the defense might be slightly better, the rotation is still no better than last year when they were starting pitchers in a pennant race that they would waive a few days later, and the bullpen still needs serious help.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
Posts: 22691
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
11/30/2007  5:08 PM
Well, it was a defensive catcher who works welling with his pitching staff plus an improvement over Green in RF. This deal was obviously done to increase the defense in 2 spots we have been weak. Not saying I defend the deal, but I understand.
jaydh
Posts: 22691
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
11/30/2007  5:09 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

Milledge has been their best position prospect for awhile now. You're going to deny that he's been the prospect that the Mets fans have been looking forward to the last couple of years? And this is all the Mets could get for him? Schneider and Church should be players you can get for marginal prospects or in a swap of bench players, not one of your big chips.

Not true, in fact, F.Martinez has been their best position prospect for a while now. Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect since the beginning of 2005. Like I said, he was the most ready, but not the top rated by any means.


Funny that you'd admit now that Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect for years now... when i brought that fact up to you, you got very defensive.

Not in the sense that Isles meant, still a very good prospect, but wasn't our top prospect since 05.
islesfan
Posts: 9999
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
11/30/2007  5:11 PM
So you can't complain about the deal and you're not defending it.

What exactly are you doing then?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
11/30/2007  5:18 PM
i don't see how the deal was so lopsided in the Nats' favor... the realistic value on Lastings Milledge really wasn't all that high to begin with... the only thing i don't get is why didn't they use him to trade for pitching instead? very curious move on Omar's part.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
islesfan
Posts: 9999
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
11/30/2007  5:20 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

Milledge has been their best position prospect for awhile now. You're going to deny that he's been the prospect that the Mets fans have been looking forward to the last couple of years? And this is all the Mets could get for him? Schneider and Church should be players you can get for marginal prospects or in a swap of bench players, not one of your big chips.

Not true, in fact, F.Martinez has been their best position prospect for a while now. Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect since the beginning of 2005. Like I said, he was the most ready, but not the top rated by any means.


Funny that you'd admit now that Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect for years now... when i brought that fact up to you, you got very defensive.

Not in the sense that Isles meant, still a very good prospect, but wasn't our top prospect since 05.

No, you mean not in the absolute literal way that you wanted to take it. Milledge is a major league ready prospect but still a top prospect.

Either way, they gave him away for nothing.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
Posts: 22691
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
11/30/2007  5:21 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Why are you trying to overrate Church this badly? He's never been a full time starter. He doesn't put up big numbers.

How am i overrating Church? He is clearly a better defender than Green. And in his 3 years in the majors(basically since 05), no matter how many ABs, he has always managed to produce a .800+OPS. Last season he was a starter and did well.
Posted by islesfan:

The top of the lineup with Reyes, Castillo, Beltran, Wright is the heart of the Mets lineup. Delgado is in serious decline and Alou can't be counted on for a full season anymore. A 7-8-9 of Church, Schneider and the pitcher is VERY weak. That's a very top heavy lineup.

Delgado had a wrist injury, his total #s for last season are misleading. I don't remember the last time Alou did play a full season, but that is what Chavez and Gomez are for. Any #9 hitter is going to be weak in the NL, so any combo of (Alou or Chavez or Gomez)/Church/Schneider for the bottom of the order is still very solid, schneider being the only weak bat but he does other things.
Posted by islesfan:

If Maine and Perez are the only things you can count on, you have bad starting pitching. You can't count on Pedro for a full year, same with El Duque, and if he doesn't get his fastball back he's not anywhere near a top of the rotation guy.

If El Duce is healthy, he is still a top of the order guy. He doesn't rely on speed, he relies on deception and speed change.
Posted by islesfan:

The lineup is worse, the defense might be slightly better, the rotation is still no better than last year when they were starting pitchers in a pennant race that they would waive a few days later, and the bullpen still needs serious help.

Obviously we don't agree on anything here outside of the bullpen needing another arm or 2.


jaydh
Posts: 22691
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
11/30/2007  5:22 PM
Posted by islesfan:

So you can't complain about the deal and you're not defending it.

What exactly are you doing then?

meaning, i would have liked to see what milledge could do but this trade does improve 2 areas.
majorleads
Posts: 20536
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/29/2006
Member: #1213

11/30/2007  6:48 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

Milledge has been their best position prospect for awhile now. You're going to deny that he's been the prospect that the Mets fans have been looking forward to the last couple of years? And this is all the Mets could get for him? Schneider and Church should be players you can get for marginal prospects or in a swap of bench players, not one of your big chips.

Not true, in fact, F.Martinez has been their best position prospect for a while now. Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect since the beginning of 2005. Like I said, he was the most ready, but not the top rated by any means.


Funny that you'd admit now that Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect for years now... when i brought that fact up to you, you got very defensive.

Not in the sense that Isles meant, still a very good prospect, but wasn't our top prospect since 05.

No, you mean not in the absolute literal way that you wanted to take it. Milledge is a major league ready prospect but still a top prospect.

Either way, they gave him away for nothing.

Go ask Portland if they'd take back Zach Randolph.

You of all people should know this isn't fantasy sports. We're trying to build a well rounded team here, not trying to "win" trades just so it looks good on the surface and appeases the impatient kiddies.
http://majorleads.blogspot.com
jazz74
Posts: 22234
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 12/24/2002
Member: #371
12/5/2007  9:21 AM
time is ticking for the mets. they seem to be in talks but other teams seem to be more aggressive. johan is a pipe dream with boston most likely getting him or he may just remain with the twins. haren looks less likely too since i haven't heard ANY news on him and probably the yankees will land him because of their prospects. bedard is the safest bet but i heard that the o's want perez or maine for him which would definately set us back BIG time. more and more it looks like that milledge trade has definately hurt us.
jaydh
Posts: 22691
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
12/5/2007  10:28 AM
I don't see how the Milledge trade has hurt us. He wasn't going to bring in any pitcher that our other prospects can't. Realistically, we have pedro/el duce/maine/perez, with Pelfrey and Humber in the wings. I can see us signing Livan H. to be our #5 to start the season, and maybe signing F.Garcia to take a chance later in the season. I would be satisfied with this, I would really like to see the bullpen improved since that is why we were so great in 2006.
islesfan
Posts: 9999
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
12/5/2007  2:04 PM
Met's pitch is a changeup

Has Oscar De La Hoya started a trend?

At the opening of Touch nightclub Thursday night, Mets pitcher John Maine followed an attractive young woman into the ladies' bathroom.

He even went into the stall with her, but she wasn't prepared for what came next.

"He asked her if he could try on the little black dress she was wearing," laughs our snitch.

Unfortunately for the Maine Man, the lady declined.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
Posts: 22691
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
12/5/2007  3:25 PM
Jay Horowitz, vice president of media relations for the Mets, says that it was a case of mistaken identity. “John Maine has not left the state of Virginia since the end of the baseball season on October 1. The quotes attributed to him are the work of an imposter.”

VDesai
Posts: 33996
Alba Posts: 43
Joined: 10/28/2003
Member: #477
USA
12/5/2007  3:38 PM
Will he need to call a press conference to let everyone know he's not gay?
TMS
Posts: 60684
Alba Posts: 617
Joined: 5/11/2004
Member: #674
USA
12/5/2007  6:10 PM
Posted by jazz74:

time is ticking for the mets. they seem to be in talks but other teams seem to be more aggressive. johan is a pipe dream with boston most likely getting him or he may just remain with the twins. haren looks less likely too since i haven't heard ANY news on him and probably the yankees will land him because of their prospects. bedard is the safest bet but i heard that the o's want perez or maine for him which would definately set us back BIG time. more and more it looks like that milledge trade has definately hurt us.

how would trading Perez or Maine for Bedard set u guys back at all? hell, u'd be crazy not to trade BOTH those guys for a guy like Bedard... he's much better than either of them... u can always sign a middle of the rotation type pitcher, but a frontline ace starter is almost impossible to acquire, as you've all seen from the Santana & Haren trade discussions... i highly doubt those guys will get you Bedard back in a trade... u'd probably have to throw in your best prospect Martinez and Gomez along w/1 of those guys to get the deal done.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
jaydh
Posts: 22691
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/16/2001
Member: #96
12/5/2007  6:26 PM
Obviously Bedard is better, but the difference in wins you get from Maine or Perez and Bedard could be minimal. I really don't think Bedard will goto mets since both LAs are interested. The interesting news now is that Mets are supposedly talking to Twins about Santana again, and to the Tigers about Willis.
new york mets thread- off-season thread

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.com All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.