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new york mets thread- off-season thread
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jazz74
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11/27/2007  12:40 PM
Posted by jazz74:

well, tms, i would peg willis as a last option. who knows? it might be time for a marlin fire sale. however, garland could be more attainable. the problem is that i don't know what kind of status is the oakland team is currently in. are they trying to make the playoffs or are they just going to blow up the team and go young?


i mean dan haran instead of garland. my bad.
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11/27/2007  5:46 PM
Posted by jazz74:

well, tms, i would peg willis as a last option. who knows? it might be time for a marlin fire sale. however, garland could be more attainable. the problem is that i don't know what kind of status is the oakland team is currently in. are they trying to make the playoffs or are they just going to blow up the team and go young?

Yeah I'm very down on Willis. He's a completely different and MUCH worse pitcher than he was a few years back. Our only real somewhat affordable option right now is Haren. John Heyman is saying the Mets can get Haren right now for Milledge, Pelfrey and Mulvey. I'd make that deal because Haren is obviously a more refined and established version of Pelfrey, Milledge is a shaky fielder, and I have not seen Mulvey pitch although everyone says he has great stuff. Plus we keep Martinez, Gomez and Guerra. Gomez and Endy can play RF this season. Do the deal Omar.
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islesfan
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11/30/2007  1:05 PM
Milledge for Ryan Church and Brian Schneider.

Wow, that's all the value Milledge had?

And how many below average catchers do the Mets need?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
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11/30/2007  2:04 PM
Well, shows how much we wanted to get rid of Mota. Schneider is an excellent defensive catcher which is what omar was looking for, and Church seems to be a solid lefty .800 OPS who will complete our OF, Alou/Beltran/Church with Chavez in the wings, allowing Gomez more time to develop or to be ivolved in a trade. Church will be better than Green in bat and glove. I can't complain too much about this move, even though we still need pitching.
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11/30/2007  3:01 PM
Posted by jaydh:

Well, shows how much we wanted to get rid of Mota. Schneider is an excellent defensive catcher which is what omar was looking for, and Church seems to be a solid lefty .800 OPS who will complete our OF, Alou/Beltran/Church with Chavez in the wings, allowing Gomez more time to develop or to be ivolved in a trade. Church will be better than Green in bat and glove. I can't complain too much about this move, even though we still need pitching.

I am a huge proponent in putting the best fielding team out there and the only reason why I wanted Milledge gone was because of his poor defense. Otherwise, I wouldn't have minded watching him another season with the Mets to see if he could become a good player. Schneider will be a HUGE boost to our entire pitching staff and Ryan Church is a pretty darn good defensive outfielder, which I love. Also, he had over 40 doubles last season in that crappy park in Washington and with that even crappier lineup he was in. And when we move into the new park, he's got a nice lefty swing and can pull the ball into the overhang in rf.

Although we didn't get pitching, we still filled 2 needs, well 3 if you include Omar adding 2 white players. ha ha Funny how he traded the black guy though, instead of a Latino. Now the black fans will all be up in arms.



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islesfan
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11/30/2007  3:05 PM
Posted by jaydh:

Well, shows how much we wanted to get rid of Mota. Schneider is an excellent defensive catcher which is what omar was looking for, and Church seems to be a solid lefty .800 OPS who will complete our OF, Alou/Beltran/Church with Chavez in the wings, allowing Gomez more time to develop or to be ivolved in a trade. Church will be better than Green in bat and glove. I can't complain too much about this move, even though we still need pitching.

Schneider is an overall below average starting catcher. Church isn't any better than Shawn Green and will be a bench player. Either way, there's no improvement over what the Mets had already with Estrada and Green.

For that they gave up their best position prospect? A supposed 5 tool guy?

At least you finally recognize that the Mets pitching stinks. Next you'll come to the realization that the Mets farm system is weak.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
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11/30/2007  3:08 PM
Lineup is solid and most likely complete at this point. Now there is pelfrey,humber,gomez,martinez,mulvey, and guerra to patch up the pitching.
jaydh
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11/30/2007  3:14 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Schneider is an overall below average starting catcher. Church isn't any better than Shawn Green and will be a bench player. Either way, there's no improvement over what the Mets had already with Estrada and Green.

For that they gave up their best position prospect? A supposed 5 tool guy?

At least you finally recognize that the Mets pitching stinks. Next you'll come to the realization that the Mets farm system is weak.

There are more important attributes to a catcher than just hitting. What you see as a below average player, I see as an excellent defender who works very well with pitching staffs. Watching Posada for all those years, I can understand why you overlook that. As for Church, he had a better season offensively last yr than Green, plus the defensive comparison isn't even close.

How is milledge all of a sudden our best position prospect? He was the most ready, but not the top position prospect.
islesfan
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11/30/2007  3:30 PM
Posted by jaydh:

Lineup is solid and most likely complete at this point. Now there is pelfrey,humber,gomez,martinez,mulvey, and guerra to patch up the pitching.

Pelfrey and Humber took steps back last year and have less value. If they were any good, they would be patching up the pitching themselves.

The Mets need more help than what those guys can bring back.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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11/30/2007  3:54 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

Schneider is an overall below average starting catcher. Church isn't any better than Shawn Green and will be a bench player. Either way, there's no improvement over what the Mets had already with Estrada and Green.

For that they gave up their best position prospect? A supposed 5 tool guy?

At least you finally recognize that the Mets pitching stinks. Next you'll come to the realization that the Mets farm system is weak.

There are more important attributes to a catcher than just hitting. What you see as a below average player, I see as an excellent defender who works very well with pitching staffs. Watching Posada for all those years, I can understand why you overlook that. As for Church, he had a better season offensively last yr than Green, plus the defensive comparison isn't even close.

How is milledge all of a sudden our best position prospect? He was the most ready, but not the top position prospect.

I never said it was all about hitting. But the Mets offense is so top heavy. When Delgado continues his decline and Alou gets hurt, they're not a good offensive team. Add to that bad starting pitching and a bad bullpen and the Mets are a team that could take a big step back next year.

Schneider isn't "excellent" defensively. Get serious. He's good but not good enough to negate the fact that he's a liability on offense. Posada is good defensively and excellent offensively. Not sure why you brought him up though.

Church and Green had roughly the same OPS last year. Like I said, he's not an upgrade over Green and will likely be the 4th OFer until Alou gets hurt. He's a part time player.

Milledge has been their best position prospect for awhile now. You're going to deny that he's been the prospect that the Mets fans have been looking forward to the last couple of years? And this is all the Mets could get for him? Schneider and Church should be players you can get for marginal prospects or in a swap of bench players, not one of your big chips.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
jaydh
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11/30/2007  4:11 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:

Lineup is solid and most likely complete at this point. Now there is pelfrey,humber,gomez,martinez,mulvey, and guerra to patch up the pitching.

Pelfrey and Humber took steps back last year and have less value. If they were any good, they would be patching up the pitching themselves.

The Mets need more help than what those guys can bring back.

Honestly, I would be fine with Pelfrey as our #5. He was definately showing signs of improvement at the end of the season. A rotation of Pedro/El Duce/Maine/Perez/Pelfrey is fine with me to start the season. One more pitcher would probably be needed in case of an injury. Where I want to see improvement is the bullpen. Sanchez and Padilla are back, Mota out, Smith fresh; but I would still look into getting a top young arm for the pen to replace wagner one day.
islesfan
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11/30/2007  4:16 PM
Keith Law on ESPN.com

Nats score big with Milledge

posted: Friday, November 30,

Lastings Milledge is still one of the better young outfield prospects in the game. By dealing him for an awful player in Brian Schneider, the Mets sold low on a former first-round pick with a lot of upside and committed two years and too much money to a catcher who can't hit.

The Mets get ... nothing, or close to it. Schneider will earn $10.3 million over the next two years to sit behind the plate when the rules call for it, and to make 300-odd outs at the plate while hitting .230/.320/.330 or thereabouts. He is the definition of replacement level -- his offensive production was roughly as valuable as what Guillermo Quiroz did in eleven plate appearances for Texas last year -- and paying him $10 million is bad enough. Giving up something of value to acquire that contract is horrible. It would be better to pay Johnny Estrada $3-4 million to be bad for one year than Schneider over $10 million to be worse for two years.

There's a small silver lining for the Mets in the acquisition of Ryan Church, a capable platoon bat in left or right field if you have a right-handed caddy for him. Unlike Schneider, he has value on a big league roster, but even swapping Milledge straight-up for Church wouldn't make sense because of Church's struggles against lefties, his long history of minor injuries, his age and his expense as a super-two player this winter.

Milledge could easily be the second-best hitter in the Nationals' lineup in 2008, and moved back to his natural position of center field, he gives them two plus defenders on the field as well. Milledge has quick wrists with line-drive power, and good plate coverage. His pitch recognition is weak right now, and he's vulnerable to anyone who can change speeds. This wasn't as much of a problem for him in the minors, so there's reason to expect an improvement. He played mostly right field in the majors for the Mets and never adjusted to the different looks a fielder gets from that position, but in center field, he has plus range and an above-average arm. He's probably not a star, but he projects as an above-average bat who plays a good defensive center field, and Washington has his rights for the next five years. Milledge's value was down due to some concerns over his attitude, but those were really overblown, and Washington just picked up a good prospect for about 20 cents on the dollar.

The only way this deal doesn't turn out to be a disaster for the Mets -- second in this decade only to the Victor Zambrano-Scott Kazmir deal -- is if Milledge doesn't pan out as a hitter, and the smart money is that he will. This is a heist for Washington, and a serious mismanagement of assets for the Mets.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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11/30/2007  4:25 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by jaydh:

Lineup is solid and most likely complete at this point. Now there is pelfrey,humber,gomez,martinez,mulvey, and guerra to patch up the pitching.

Pelfrey and Humber took steps back last year and have less value. If they were any good, they would be patching up the pitching themselves.

The Mets need more help than what those guys can bring back.

Honestly, I would be fine with Pelfrey as our #5. He was definately showing signs of improvement at the end of the season. A rotation of Pedro/El Duce/Maine/Perez/Pelfrey is fine with me to start the season. One more pitcher would probably be needed in case of an injury. Where I want to see improvement is the bullpen. Sanchez and Padilla are back, Mota out, Smith fresh; but I would still look into getting a top young arm for the pen to replace wagner one day.

I think they would be better off holding onto Pelfrey and Humber. Let them try to rebuild their value or prove that they can be a building block. But if they still fancy themselves as contenders, they need a lot more pitching. You can't count on Pedro or El Duque for an entire season. The bullpen can be ok to start the season but it'll start breaking down from overuse. They do need some young power arms. I don't think you can count on Sanchez at this point.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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11/30/2007  4:27 PM
If Pelfrey doesn't get traded, I am actually looking forward to seeing him pitch this season. He has really good stuff, just needs to regain his confidence which he was starting to get back towards the end of the season. We just need an innings eater so we can stick Pelfrey in the five slot. El Duque needs to pitch in relief. Maine is going to have a great season and Ollie will probably be the same as he's always been which is good.

Our lineup is fine, Reyes won't stink the during the second half, Delcrapo will be recovered from his wrist injury and Beltran is due for a monster season. Castillo and Reyes up top is a great 1-2 and defensively we're much improved. Also Wright can have an even better year. As long as Alou is in the lineup, it's an added bonus. Endy will be around for backup and now that we have Church, I'm looking forward to watching him play.
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jaydh
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11/30/2007  4:30 PM
Posted by islesfan:

I never said it was all about hitting. But the Mets offense is so top heavy. When Delgado continues his decline and Alou gets hurt, they're not a good offensive team.

So top heavy? Alou and Church will bat 6 and 7th. One had a .900OPS while the other an .800OPS last season.
Posted by islesfan:

Add to that bad starting pitching and a bad bullpen and the Mets are a team that could take a big step back next year.

Bad SP? Right, just because we need 1 starter, doesn't mean the rotation is bad. How do we take a stap back? The lineup and defense is already better, the rotation is no worse than is started out with last season, and the bullpen can only get better with guys returning and Mota out.
Posted by islesfan:

Church and Green had roughly the same OPS last year. Like I said, he's not an upgrade over Green and will likely be the 4th OFer until Alou gets hurt. He's a part time player.

Shawn Green= .772 ops, Church= .813 ops. Yes, I believe their is a difference. And Chavez will be our 4th OFer.
Posted by islesfan:

Milledge has been their best position prospect for awhile now. You're going to deny that he's been the prospect that the Mets fans have been looking forward to the last couple of years? And this is all the Mets could get for him? Schneider and Church should be players you can get for marginal prospects or in a swap of bench players, not one of your big chips.

Not true, in fact, F.Martinez has been their best position prospect for a while now. Milledge hasn't been a top rated prospect since the beginning of 2005. Like I said, he was the most ready, but not the top rated by any means.
jaydh
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11/30/2007  4:36 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Nats score big with Milledge

And I agree. I see why Omar made the trade from a filling the holes standpoint, but I like Milledge and he has star potential. Once management got down on him, high fiving fans etc., for dumb reasons his days were numbered. I think if you start milledge in RF, he puts up better numbers than Church, and I could have lived with an Estrada/Castro platoon behind the plate.

VDesai
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11/30/2007  4:42 PM
If Milledge is probably > Church and they already had 2 similar catchers to Schneider on the roster, how is this filling holes?

It seemed like he had a lot more percieved value than this. Strange, strange trade.

Maybe he's in the Mitchell report or something.
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11/30/2007  4:45 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by islesfan:

Nats score big with Milledge

And I agree. I see why Omar made the trade from a filling the holes standpoint, but I like Milledge and he has star potential. Once management got down on him, high fiving fans etc., for dumb reasons his days were numbered. I think if you start milledge in RF, he puts up better numbers than Church, and I could have lived with an Estrada/Castro platoon behind the plate.

Milledge is gone because he is a bad defensive outfielder. We're talking scary bad in that he's liable to misjudge fly balls at any time during a big spot. All the other stuff like high fiving fans and his rap video, really had little to no relevance. All about pitching and defense with Omar.
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jaydh
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11/30/2007  4:46 PM
Posted by islesfan:

You can't count on Pedro or El Duque for an entire season.

That's true, which is why taking a flyer on Garcia, or trying to find a decent pitcher for the start of the season so that there isn't a revolving door would be wise.
Posted by islesfan:

The bullpen can be ok to start the season but it'll start breaking down from overuse. They do need some young power arms. I don't think you can count on Sanchez at this point.

Again it depends on how players are when they return. Wags, Heilman, Feliciano, Smith are solid. Sanchez and Padilla need to re-prove themselves. Also there is the belief Edward Kunz should quickly make it to the majors ala Smith. Another proven arm or 2 is needed to stabilize until we find out what we can get from sanchez,padillia and kunz.


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11/30/2007  4:48 PM
Posted by VDesai:

If Milledge is probably > Church and they already had 2 similar catchers to Schneider on the roster, how is this filling holes?

It seemed like he had a lot more percieved value than this. Strange, strange trade.

Maybe he's in the Mitchell report or something.

How is Milledge greater than Church? Milledge can't catch easy fly balls. And WHO are the 2 similar catchers to Schneider on our roster? Huh?



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new york mets thread- off-season thread

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