Posted by franco12:

you make it sound like KGs teams have always sucked. they haven't. He's come up short, but he often made the play offs.

and I think people make a bigger deal about where we get these guys (crawford, marbury, curry) than the fact that we've gotten hand me down players- and the reason they are hand me down players is they are talented, but flawed- low bb iq types who don't play on all sides of the ball- be it defense, rebounding or team leadership.

I can't tell if you are refuting my point or agreeing with it.

Perhaps the question relates not only to guys who know how to win but who know how to trust their teammates in clutch situations.

what is the meaning of floor leadership?

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by misterearl:

bippity - I really think you are onto something worth a deeper exchange of ideas. Your originality is appreciated.

As the Knicks have lost 4 games by 5 points or less, the question remains ... as posed by Kool and the Gang, in a memorable seventies classic boogie-down jam..

"who's gunna take the weight...?"

I've been preaching this gospel on these websites for several years now. It happens at the pro level, college, highschool, middleschool and elementary school levels. The habits needed to win down the stretch are learned. Our guys have never learned and this is why they continue to make mistakes. By keeping this group intact and bringing in similar players we are placing our players at a disadvantage. They are left to learn on their own. The more they lose these close games, the more exasperating it beomes. Bring in one or two leaders and you have a completely different scenario. I have no doubt that one day, one of these players will begin to display leadership characteristics(either with us or on another team). But why delay the process by forcing them to learn on their own? If you have a young team, you must bring in people to assist them or you will witness the frustration we have for the past 3 years. It's unavoidable.

Can we get Robert Horry?

It's only logical to assume that a player who has been in winning situations will learn from that experience and bring that with him. I just don't know if that is an excuse in every case. Almost everyteam has a group of players that have likely never really won. Many of those fringe players turnout to be winning players anyway as the losing in the past wasn't really a reflection on their abilities.

Our problem as I see it and many have echoed the same thing, we just don't have a lot of high BB IQ players. At least not ones that are in the backcourt running things. There's a void on this team and it keeps showing itself in late game situations. I will also say that we have lost some 50/50 type games. The overtime game could easily have gone either way and largely we just missed chip shots to close it out. Also i've noted that Lee, Curry and Zach who are notoriously high % players for the most part have been missing shots they normally don't miss. Steph has lost his ability to make those layups on drives to the hole. Jamal has been flipping up runners instead of just making the simple layup and I don't know why he's been doing that lately.

Now I know this isn't just about this season and this is a historic problem since Isiah has come here. I'm just saying that it's a problem but not the only thing that has lead to losses at least not this year. I do think we would improve immediately with smarter PG's running the show. It's why I want to give Mardy a chance. Of all of our guys he seems to have a better sense of the game than the other guards. Mind you he's got a lot to learn too, but I actually think he'll learn to do the right things.

Posted by nixluva:

It's only logical to assume that a player who has been in winning situations will learn from that experience and bring that with him. I just don't know if that is an excuse in every case. Almost everyteam has a group of players that have likely never really won. Many of those fringe players turnout to be winning players anyway as the losing in the past wasn't really a reflection on their abilities.

Our problem as I see it and many have echoed the same thing, we just don't have a lot of high BB IQ players. At least not ones that are in the backcourt running things. There's a void on this team and it keeps showing itself in late game situations. I will also say that we have lost some 50/50 type games. The overtime game could easily have gone either way and largely we just missed chip shots to close it out. Also i've noted that Lee, Curry and Zach who are notoriously high % players for the most part have been missing shots they normally don't miss. Steph has lost his ability to make those layups on drives to the hole. Jamal has been flipping up runners instead of just making the simple layup and I don't know why he's been doing that lately.

Now I know this isn't just about this season and this is a historic problem since Isiah has come here. I'm just saying that it's a problem but not the only thing that has lead to losses at least not this year. I do think we would improve immediately with smarter PG's running the show. It's why I want to give Mardy a chance. Of all of our guys he seems to have a better sense of the game than the other guards. Mind you he's got a lot to learn too, but I actually think he'll learn to do the right things.

Who said it was the "only thing that lead to losses"?

There are many issues. The leadership thing just rears it's ugly head during crunch time and periods of adversity.

Posted by Bippity10:

Nix: It's not the losing situations alone that determines whether a guy can handle crunch time minutes. It's what those players do in those losing situations. Guys that learn how to win, normally learn when they are traded to better teams where guys can show them the way.

You are seeing it first hand. It's time to start waiting for guys to "figure things out". And start finding people that can lead the way. Guys that have already done it. Why such a resistance to this concept? It makes no sense to me.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 19-11-2007 1:07 PM]

One problem is that our trades have not made us significantly better - at least as regards wins and losses - so why make any more trades? A player has a good game against us and you say, boy, I wish we had that guy on our team. Then he comes to the Knicks and he sucks.

Until we get the curse lifted, there's no hope.

Losing close games all the time is clear indication of crappy coaching.
Players are important but... 90% of blame for this goes to the coach.
Isiah is at best average and extremely disturbed coach.
His execution of end of game situations and for that matter end of quarters’ situation is worst in the league.
This man just sucks.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by misterearl:

bippity - I really think you are onto something worth a deeper exchange of ideas. Your originality is appreciated.

As the Knicks have lost 4 games by 5 points or less, the question remains ... as posed by Kool and the Gang, in a memorable seventies classic boogie-down jam..

"who's gunna take the weight...?"

what originality? i've been saying this team has lacked a leader that knows what to do when the game is on the line for the longest... Bip's just bitin' off my argument like he always does... biter.

You're kidding right? This isn't a novel concept that I came up with or TMS came up with, it's the law of sports. I'm just amazed that some fans see the same mistakes over and over again and refuse to beleive what the issue is.

Players come here and they add nothing in terms of wins. Doesn't matter how good the guy is, it changes nothing. Why does this continually happen? They are placed in the wrong roles, they don't fit the team and lastly because we have a culture of losing. These are things that don't seem important but every year I seem to win every league I join and it's because I realize how important it is. Winners, bread winners. Losers bread losers.

This isn't a championship team where we need to be discussing how to close out games.

This is a team that needs to do quite a few things before they get back to basketball.

Misterearl, please don't jump the gun.