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We need to clean house and tank
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SupremeCommander
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11/14/2007  9:19 AM
The simple fact is that in 2010, the Knicks owe Utah via Phoenix an unprotected draft pick from the Stephon Marbury trade, making it three lottery picks that Isiah Thomas has given up for less-than-mediocrity.

Given everything that's happened, a fresh start is what is best for this team. Given how terrible the team is as well, blowing it up and building around a potential stud PG in the draft, like Mayo or Rose (or any other top prospect like Chase Budinger), Balkman, Lee and (maybe) Randolph seems like the way to go. If the Knicks make it to 35 wins, the best bet is to relinquish the pick to Utah, as I don't see it getting any better... and I don't want to give up another top pick in a trade.

My point is, this franchise needs to start planning around this future liability, because despite some early optimism, this team isn't going anywhere worthwhile anytime soon.
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
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fishmike
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11/14/2007  9:21 AM
its only been 5 games!

Get in the truck!
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
SupremeCommander
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11/14/2007  9:24 AM
Posted by fishmike:

its only been 5 games!

Get in the truck!



I know, I know... it sounds like a knee jerk reaction. This Isiah/Marbury situation is another disaster in a long string of disasters though and considering this team is really going nowhere, the team needs to start thinking about maximizing its future assets.... in this case, draft picks.
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
fishmike
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11/14/2007  10:04 AM
I just wish we had a plan. Even if it failed you can at least say there was a direction. I just dont see any semblance of that during Isiah's regime.

Looking at Boston makes me want to throw up. GK/Pierce/Allen are en route to coasting the playoffs. Its not like he had a wealth of assets to work with. Thats the kind of team we deserve here. Instead we get Marbury/Zach/Curry.

Then you go the Bulls.. and yes it took them several years before they got it right (Curry/Chandler/Robinson/Crawford/Fizer/Williams) but they stuck to their plan and now have one of the deepest talent pools in the NBA, and a playoff team.

What is our plan? What is our future?

Seems like year after year we are hoping for guys who have been losers year after to year for this year to be their year.

Its bull****

Isiah is as bad as Layden. Worse, because Scott had a plan, and had McDyess been healthy that would have been a playoff team. They won 37 game without McDyess and Kurt playing center.

What a waste of 4 years
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
arkrud
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11/14/2007  10:59 AM
Looking at assets what we really have:

Eddy - big question - conditioning, desire, health
Zack - big question - character, desire, health
Marbs - done, no questions
Craf - big question - skills, bbal IQ
malik - done, no questions
Jerom - done, no questions
Q - big question - conditioning, health
Jeffries - big question - skills
Nate - big question - BBal IQ, size
Jones - big question - skills, no position

mardy - who knows
balk - who knows
Morris - who knows
Chan - who knows


Lee - may be the one, but not convincing

So what we have at the end?




"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Knicksfan
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11/14/2007  11:06 AM
Posted by fishmike:

I just wish we had a plan. Even if it failed you can at least say there was a direction. I just dont see any semblance of that during Isiah's regime.

Looking at Boston makes me want to throw up. GK/Pierce/Allen are en route to coasting the playoffs. Its not like he had a wealth of assets to work with. Thats the kind of team we deserve here. Instead we get Marbury/Zach/Curry.

Then you go the Bulls.. and yes it took them several years before they got it right (Curry/Chandler/Robinson/Crawford/Fizer/Williams) but they stuck to their plan and now have one of the deepest talent pools in the NBA, and a playoff team.

What is our plan? What is our future?

Seems like year after year we are hoping for guys who have been losers year after to year for this year to be their year.

Its bull****

Isiah is as bad as Layden. Worse, because Scott had a plan, and had McDyess been healthy that would have been a playoff team. They won 37 game without McDyess and Kurt playing center.

What a waste of 4 years

Completely agree with this post. Thats why, no matter if we are only 6 games into the season, the real problems of this franchise remain. We have no plan. The only thing Isiah is trying to do is get the best player in every deal so people have high expectations. But the talent we have doesn't make a team. We haven't had a plan in many years. We talk about desperate fans, but Isiah is just as desperate and it makes him change his "plan" every week.

We need to get rid of Isiah because if he hasn't developed a plan in 4 years, he will never...
Knicks_Fan
SupremeCommander
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11/14/2007  5:33 PM
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by fishmike:

I just wish we had a plan. Even if it failed you can at least say there was a direction. I just dont see any semblance of that during Isiah's regime.

Looking at Boston makes me want to throw up. GK/Pierce/Allen are en route to coasting the playoffs. Its not like he had a wealth of assets to work with. Thats the kind of team we deserve here. Instead we get Marbury/Zach/Curry.

Then you go the Bulls.. and yes it took them several years before they got it right (Curry/Chandler/Robinson/Crawford/Fizer/Williams) but they stuck to their plan and now have one of the deepest talent pools in the NBA, and a playoff team.

What is our plan? What is our future?

Seems like year after year we are hoping for guys who have been losers year after to year for this year to be their year.

Its bull****

Isiah is as bad as Layden. Worse, because Scott had a plan, and had McDyess been healthy that would have been a playoff team. They won 37 game without McDyess and Kurt playing center.

What a waste of 4 years

Completely agree with this post. Thats why, no matter if we are only 6 games into the season, the real problems of this franchise remain. We have no plan. The only thing Isiah is trying to do is get the best player in every deal so people have high expectations. But the talent we have doesn't make a team. We haven't had a plan in many years. We talk about desperate fans, but Isiah is just as desperate and it makes him change his "plan" every week.

We need to get rid of Isiah because if he hasn't developed a plan in 4 years, he will never...

I might be bumping this now and apologize if I am, but I agree completely with both of you. I just hope Jim Dolan reads these message boards so he knows just how terrible this team was built... and now he has an excuse to clean up a mess. I hope he doesn't squander this opportunity, but I bet you he will.
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
crzymdups
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11/14/2007  5:41 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I just wish we had a plan. Even if it failed you can at least say there was a direction. I just dont see any semblance of that during Isiah's regime.

Looking at Boston makes me want to throw up. GK/Pierce/Allen are en route to coasting the playoffs. Its not like he had a wealth of assets to work with. Thats the kind of team we deserve here. Instead we get Marbury/Zach/Curry.

Then you go the Bulls.. and yes it took them several years before they got it right (Curry/Chandler/Robinson/Crawford/Fizer/Williams) but they stuck to their plan and now have one of the deepest talent pools in the NBA, and a playoff team.

What is our plan? What is our future?

Seems like year after year we are hoping for guys who have been losers year after to year for this year to be their year.

Its bull****

Isiah is as bad as Layden. Worse, because Scott had a plan, and had McDyess been healthy that would have been a playoff team. They won 37 game without McDyess and Kurt playing center.

What a waste of 4 years

But the Boston plan was how everyone here said they didn't want to build. I think trying to build like Boston is a bad idea right now, it basically got us where we are now, because we didn't have Willis Reed GMing for the Timberwolves to give us KG for next to nothing.

I agree that we need to clean house and tank and get some lotto talent the next two years and try to manage the cap for once.
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Bonn1997
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11/14/2007  6:02 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I just wish we had a plan. Even if it failed you can at least say there was a direction. I just dont see any semblance of that during Isiah's regime.

Looking at Boston makes me want to throw up. GK/Pierce/Allen are en route to coasting the playoffs. Its not like he had a wealth of assets to work with. Thats the kind of team we deserve here. Instead we get Marbury/Zach/Curry.

Then you go the Bulls.. and yes it took them several years before they got it right (Curry/Chandler/Robinson/Crawford/Fizer/Williams) but they stuck to their plan and now have one of the deepest talent pools in the NBA, and a playoff team.

What is our plan? What is our future?

Seems like year after year we are hoping for guys who have been losers year after to year for this year to be their year.

Its bull****

Isiah is as bad as Layden. Worse, because Scott had a plan, and had McDyess been healthy that would have been a playoff team. They won 37 game without McDyess and Kurt playing center.

What a waste of 4 years

There is a plan: Bring in as much instant cash as possible! I wonder how many jerseys and seats Zach helped sell this off season. How many seats do you think the notion of cap space in 2010 would have sold?
franco12
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11/14/2007  6:05 PM
isiah has a plan- its to bs his way with dolan, tell him what he wants to hear, and make up plenty of excuses.

I think the plan that Isiah/Dolan have been operating under is the same one we had prior to Isiah- and that is to try to cobble together one more expensive piece that might get us over the top.

I was never a fan of picking Isiah as GM, be he has consisted added talent with his moves. Is that much of a plan? no. Has he overpaid? Yes. Did he buy flawed, but talented players? Yes.

I don't think Dolan wanted to hear 'rebuild'. He wanted instant success and figured with these expensive deals, he'd be able to do it.

Dolan didn't want to hear '5 year rebuilding plan'. He wanted play offs and a deal for Marbury got this squad back in.

Would we have been much better off if Isiah had just tanked & drafted and not made any MLE signings or trades? Yes.
oohah
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11/14/2007  6:05 PM
Looking at Boston makes me want to throw up. GK/Pierce/Allen are en route to coasting the playoffs. Its not like he had a wealth of assets to work with. Thats the kind of team we deserve here. Instead we get Marbury/Zach/Curry.

Come on Fish, that wasn't a plan. That was years of crappiness, then luck.

The luckiest part was the Garnett trade-collusion with McHale. without garnet they were a decent team, but not title contenders by any stretch.

Boston is not the team to look at as an example of planning.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
bobs3304
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11/14/2007  6:10 PM
^ No, it was a plan.

It was a very wise plan. You're team sucks, no hope in site. Tank, get a top pick in a top draft.

I have no f'n clue how you think it was bad, when they're 6-0 and DESTROYING teams.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
franco12
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11/14/2007  6:14 PM
Posted by oohah:
Looking at Boston makes me want to throw up. GK/Pierce/Allen are en route to coasting the playoffs. Its not like he had a wealth of assets to work with. Thats the kind of team we deserve here. Instead we get Marbury/Zach/Curry.

Come on Fish, that wasn't a plan. That was years of crappiness, then luck.

The luckiest part was the Garnett trade-collusion with McHale. without garnet they were a decent team, but not title contenders by any stretch.

Boston is not the team to look at as an example of planning.

oohah

Ainge had a similar strategy- amass assets- but here is the difference- he got lots of cheap players in the draft, and accepted that they weren't going to be very good. Thus, he was able to give Minny what they wanted most. We can talk about collusion, but if Ainge had had the knick assets, I suspect a deal wouldn't have happened.

Did they luck into the garnett trade? Absolutely.

But with the overpaid crap we have, we weren't able to luck into a kobe deal. Just dump our bad deals & replace with the likes of Ty Thomas, LaMarcus Aldridge- and I suspect we could have offered something to get LA excited about.
Cash
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11/14/2007  6:22 PM
I happen to enjoy watching the kids play. For me, it has always been about the future, and so a future of eddy curry and jamal crawford scares the hell out of me. Not because they are old, but because they have not shown an ability to improve.

Other players this team has, have improved quite a bit in the offseason. David lee improves his ft% and possibly his post game. Renaldo Balkman improves his dribling. Nate robinson has become more interested in distributing.

However, players like Curry and crawful, are not going to be better. They have been in this league for years, and whether they start or not, the team they are on sucks!
oohah
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11/14/2007  9:54 PM
Posted by bobs3304:

^ No, it was a plan.

It was a very wise plan. You're team sucks, no hope in site. Tank, get a top pick in a top draft.

I have no f'n clue how you think it was bad, when they're 6-0 and DESTROYING teams.

I don't even know what you are responding to Bob. The point is that Ainge didn't have a "plan". Do you understand what I am saying?

He managed to get the team to mediocrity with Allen and Pierce. Then he was lucky enough that he had a relationship with McHale so that McHale would take ridiculously less value than he should have for Garnett. Do you understand?

And by the way, the Celtics never tanked. They just sucked. And they got the #5 pick, hardly worth tanking for.

You're such a proponent of tanking, I don't think you understand that tanking blows up in your face 9 out of 10 times.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
oohah
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11/14/2007  9:56 PM
Hey bob please describe Ainge's plan to me. I think we should assume that a plan happens over many seasons not just 1. If your description was "The Celticstanked last year", then we know Ainge did not have a plan.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Bonn1997
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11/14/2007  10:10 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by bobs3304:

^ No, it was a plan.

It was a very wise plan. You're team sucks, no hope in site. Tank, get a top pick in a top draft.

I have no f'n clue how you think it was bad, when they're 6-0 and DESTROYING teams.

I don't even know what you are responding to Bob. The point is that Ainge didn't have a "plan". Do you understand what I am saying?

He managed to get the team to mediocrity with Allen and Pierce. Then he was lucky enough that he had a relationship with McHale so that McHale would take ridiculously less value than he should have for Garnett. Do you understand?

And by the way, the Celtics never tanked. They just sucked. And they got the #5 pick, hardly worth tanking for.

You're such a proponent of tanking, I don't think you understand that tanking blows up in your face 9 out of 10 times.

oohah

ridiculously less value? Most people on this forum thought the Cs overpaid! I still think they did.
oohah
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11/14/2007  10:19 PM
ridiculously less value? Most people on this forum thought the Cs overpaid! I still think they did.

Al Jefferson and a bag of balls for Garnett? One of the top 3 players in the league?

I think that is low value. Al Jefferson is good. I don't think Jefferson is half as good as Garnett and if he becomes 60% of the player Garnett has been, he will be a hell of a player.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Siar617
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11/15/2007  3:26 AM
Eddy - big question - conditioning, desire, health
Zack - big question - character, desire, health
Marbs - done, no questions
Craf - big question - skills, bbal IQ
malik - done, no questions
Jerom - done, no questions
Q - big question - conditioning, health
Jeffries - big question - skills
Nate - big question - BBal IQ, size
Jones - big question - skills, no position

mardy - who knows
balk - who knows
Morris - who knows
Chan - who knows


Lee - may be the one, but not convincing

are you serious
when was the last time currys health been a problem
i though zbo showed alot of good character in his short time here
and desire you're talking about the wrong player
health you just making stuff up
marb done y did he die until he's traded or cut he's still a good player
question jc iq not his skills are you kidding me the guy has as much talent as anyother player in the nba
james and rose well i sure hope there done
as long as q is still a team player i dont care about his conditioning or health (by the way thats the same thing) i want chandler to have his min anyway
jjeffries you're right skills are a problem but dfense and size and versatility are perfect for a twelth wich he should be
nate iq getting better skills are amazing size has not been a problem yet
dont want jones anyway
lee is a good bench player thats it
balkman dont even try to hate the kid is awsome bench player
morris is the truth if not for curry and zbo this guy 'd be a starter
chandler should be playing his way into the starting sf spot he's qrich but bigger better and more athletic
marty is a 6'6 c ward and i'll take that
needs to work on the turn over bad though
jesus617 walks
Bippity10
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11/15/2007  11:37 AM
Ainge had said many times to those of us in Boston that he would continue to acquire first round picks until they blossomed or he was able to trade for a star. This was common knowledge in Boston
I just hope that people will like me
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We need to clean house and tank
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